Found Safe Canada - O’Driscoll-Zak sisters, 2 & 5, abduction by aunt & grandmother, Cochrane, 12 Mar 2021

[Dre]

You all pose some really interesting ideas. It’s hard for me to think of all 3 women as being highly dramatic, but that can often run in families and perpetuated by one another.

the idea they might still be hidden in that home is crazy to me, but worth checking out. Would dogs even be helpful looking for secret spaces since their scents would be all over anyway?

I really like the idea of “underground” organizations to save lives, but what a slippery slope. You’d have to think they would indeed have to vet so they know they’re not helping the hurtful party.
What a nightmare is all I can say. Hope the truth comes out and that these little ones get reintroduced to some stability and peace. Moo

 

[otto]

But now it occurs to me, possibly the grandmother/ aunt are concerned about what the mother or father might do to the children out of desperation, we've seen several recent cases of children being murdered by their parent rather than share custody, so perhaps it's more of a rescue until everyone settles down, than an abduction.

If it's a rescue, that can also be done legally. Children's Services can investigate and remove the children. The aunt or grandmother can step forward as viable foster parents.

The children were with the mother at 9:30AM on the day that they vanished. We have not heard that the mother is distressed by the abduction, so it's reasonable to believe she agrees with what is being done to the children.

 

[Seattle1]

There are some people who react to everything with drama and chaos, and that what this case looks like to me. Even if the custody agreements were smooth, this type of person, imo, would still create chaos and drama. Rather than deal with it and make the best of it, throw everything around and make a mess of it.

As an outsider looking in, that's what it looks like. And when this drama is over, there will be more. Again. Repeat.

jmopinion

I completely agree.

Although we really don't know anything about JOZ's family dynamics, from the court documents, I find it clear that this is more about JOZ (and probably her extended, matriarchal family) being in control than it is about the true safety and welfare of the children.

We know JOZ's methodology has been to give lip service to the court while failing to cooperate at every turn. As late as December, JOZ told the court she believes in reunification! I think she wanted that on the record-- given the abduction.

The couple separated in 2019. The family has had a lot of time to think about this.

I'm also wondering if JOZ and her sister were subjects of a custody battle....

MOO

 

[MistyWaters]

You all pose some really interesting ideas. It’s hard for me to think of all 3 women as being highly dramatic, but that can often run in families and perpetuated by one another.

the idea they might still be hidden in that home is crazy to me, but worth checking out. Would dogs even be helpful looking for secret spaces since their scents would be all over anyway?

I really like the idea of “underground” organizations to save lives, but what a slippery slope. You’d have to think they would indeed have to vet so they know they’re not helping the hurtful party.
What a nightmare is all I can say. Hope the truth comes out and that these little ones get reintroduced to some stability and peace. Moo

I was thinking about the possibility of involvement by an underground “rescue” organization as well. Anything operating underground involved great trust of unknown people, posing huge danger if the purported rescuers have less than honourable intentions.

I’d be very surprised if such operations exist without close ties to organized crime and then there’s everything we know that goes along with that including child and human trafficking. I’d hope that’s not why these four appear to have disappeared off the face of the earth because the outcome may be far worse for each and everyone involved than if the mother had simply complied with the court in the first place. JMO

14 days now, the abduction occurred two weeks ago today.

 

[Seattle1]

I'd not seen this before -- that the court allegedly ordered a psychological psychiatric assessment of JOZ. Another game-changer. I wonder if the family will now allege they are protecting the children from both JOZ and CMZ? What a mess for these poor children...

Father of missing girls concerned for their safety - Strathmore Now

17 Mar 2021

There are specific criteria that must be met in order to activate an Amber Alert and in this case the RCMP say "they do not have evidence to indicate that the threshold has been met."

However, Zak disagrees. "They say that the children aren't in danger but the court disagrees. That's why the court ordered the immediate removal of the children. That's why the court-appointed psychologist was supportive of that. It's a dangerous game of semantics when you start having RCMP disagreeing with the judgement and disagreeing with the experts who are actually familiar with this case."

He worries for the safety of his daughters.

"I'm very concerned. The mother is extremely unwell. The mother of my children is extremely unwell. That's why the court has ordered a psychiatric assessment and that's why they removed the children ultimately. I think that's what it comes down to."

Zak is pleading with anyone who has any information on the whereabouts of his girls and is urging them to call 911 if they know anything related to their disappearance.

He says he just wants them home and safe again.

 

[Seattle1]

RCMP made this comment about a week after girls were missing. Perhaps they uncovered electronic evidence that they were in contact with an underground organization. I trust they've obtained search warrants for the family electronics and know more details than being shared.

Cochrane RCMP believe suspects receiving aid in case of missing girls | Calgary Herald

“Investigators understand that there are many people who are sympathetic to the custody situation of these children,” said Cochrane RCMP in a statement on Friday.

 

[otto]

When 4 people vanish from the face of the earth, it's not often that investigators assume they are hiding. There's usually a concern that something happened to the missing people. I hope that the RCMP haven't interpreted the situation incorrectly.

 

[MistyWaters]

When 4 people vanish from the face of the earth, it's not often that investigators assume they are hiding. There's usually a concern that something happened to the missing people. I hope that the RCMP haven't interpreted the situation incorrectly.

When the two boys fled from BC to Manitoba a couple of years ago I recall the RCMP saying they filed charges because a Warrant was required for an out-of-province arrest. In this case, by last reports, the four are only considered missing which isn’t a crime at all. The police response is indeed very unusual.

My only thought is maybe the RCMP have reason to believe one or both could take unpredictable action if they laid charges and aggressively circulated “wanted for child abduction” throughout media channels. Two adults, related yes but still, what if the two no longer agree with each other on a future course of action?

 

[otto]

When the two boys fled from BC to Manitoba a couple of years ago I recall the RCMP saying they filed charges because a Warrant was required for an out-of-province arrest. In this case, by last reports, the four are only considered missing which isn’t a crime at all. The police response is indeed very unusual.

My only thought is maybe the RCMP have reason to believe one or both could take unpredictable action if they laid charges and aggressively circulated “wanted for child abduction” throughout media channels. Two adults, related yes but still, what if the two no longer agree with each other on a future course of action?

Not just that the two adults may not agree with each other, but that they may not have abducted the children. Maybe something happened to all 4 of the missing persons, one by one.

I agree that if the concern is escalated, involved parties may escalate tensions.

 

[Seattle1]

Not just that the two adults may not agree with each other, but that they may not have abducted the children. Maybe something happened to all 4 of the missing persons, one by one.

I agree that if the concern is escalated, involved parties may escalate tensions.

After reading about the alleged order for a psych assessment of JOZ, I've had similar thoughts.

No appeals to mom, sister, to bring the children home.

I wonder if they were in favor of reunification? Eeek.. I hope they've not been silenced.

 

[MistyWaters]

Not just that the two adults may not agree with each other, but that they may not have abducted the children. Maybe something happened to all 4 of the missing persons, one by one.

I agree that if the concern is escalated, involved parties may escalate tensions.

Yikes, yes....my mind didn’t quite want to go there. If everything the RCMP think they know originated from JOZ regarding the grandmother and aunt taking the children, how do they know she’s being truthful?

 

[otto]

After reading about the alleged order for a psych assessment of JOZ, I've had similar thoughts.

No appeals to mom, sister, to bring the children home.

I wonder if they were in favor of reunification? Eeek.. I hope they've not been silenced.

Based on what appears to be a family effort to prevent the father from spending time with his children, I doubt that there was any interest on behalf of the mother's family to include the father in the children's future. However, if the mother is indeed unstable, then the grandmother and aunt attempting to remove the children may not have gone over well.

 

[otto]

Yikes, yes....my mind didn’t quite want to go there. If everything the RCMP think they know originated from JOZ regarding the grandmother and aunt taking the children, how do they know she’s being truthful?

The mother told the Judge exactly what she wanted to hear, and strung her along, for more than a year. Obviously the mother is very competent in convincing those in authority that she is genuine in what she says.

 

[Mystrywrtr62]

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The mother’s family kidnap the children. There is nothing in the court record to suggest the father is the problem. The court order gave full custody to the father. Why aren’t you open to accepting that MAYBE the court got it right and the mother is the problem?

 

[otto]

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The only viewpoint we can have is based on the court documents and news stories that are available. There is more to this story.

It's apparent that this is an acrimonious divorce, where both parents are overly emotional regarding custody of the children. We know that the mother had custody, and she had to accept that the father will have a role in the children's lives. Ample legal, mediation, counselling, resources and psychological services were provided.

She could have minimized the role that the father had with the children, but he was going to have a role. That's life. She married him and they had two children together over 5-6 years. They both had jobs. They had a family life together until one day one of them decided to divorce. Everything was fine until it wasn't, and when it wasn't it was War of the Roses.

Is there a way to look at this abduction as justifiable? Is critical information missing?

 

[otto]

When two parents hurl allegations against each other in a custody battle, if the allegations are serious enough, the children can be apprehended. That means foster care, supervised visitation for both parents and parenting skill assessment. That is the last thing parents should do to their children. After one parent makes strong allegations that would justify removing custody from the other parent, that parent needs to step back and play by the rules to prevent the apprehension of the children. Not easy, but also not the end of the world. The dust settles, the allegations are either confirmed or unfounded, and then, if unfounded, it usually ends with joint custody.

We don't know how far this couple took their battle, but it seems like they are still in full battle mode with the father having won the war only because the mother needed, or wanted, to win one more battle.

 

[Mistyjks]

I’ll admit I have not followed this thread as closely. My father very unexpectedly passed late Sunday evening, we just had his funeral today.

I have an open mind both ways. While I’m inclined to believe the court has it right (just voa natural respect for authority), something about Dad is off to me and I truly can’t say what it is. No one should feel how you do for looking at all aspects and stating opinion. I’m sorry you have been made to feel this way.

This has gone on for too long though, they need to be found.


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[Alice Ramnit]

I’ll admit I have not followed this thread as closely. My father very unexpectedly passed late Sunday evening, we just had his funeral today.

I have an open mind both ways. While I’m inclined to believe the court has it right (just voa natural respect for authority), something about Dad is off to me and I truly can’t say what it is. No one should feel how you do for looking at all aspects and stating opinion. I’m sorry you have been made to feel this way.

This has gone on for too long though, they need to be found.

I am very sorry to hear tht your Dad passed away. I send you a big hug and my condolences.

 

[otto]

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I agree that custody decisions can be wrong, but I don't think it is because a Judge is biased. During acrimonious custody disputes, the Judge relies on court filings, lawyers, undertakings by applicant/defendant, an amicus curiae and psychological test, interview and observation based reports. If there are social workers and doctors involved, those reports are also made available. Judges don't award custody based on finding one parent more likeable. A psychologist quite often has the final word.

It's true that even in the 1990s Judges believed that any form of abuse against a spouse did not mean there will be abuse against the children. That perspective is hopefully changing. Mediation services were introduced soon after to provide parents with a more civilized option for settling differences.

Sadly, we might have an example of it with this abduction. Surely the children are not better off hidden by their grandmother / aunt than with one of their parents. Is this an example of an abusive partner in a 2 person abusive relationship leaving it with the children to pay the price? Is the mother 100% committed to the safety of the children and it took her 5 years and 2 children to realize that there was a life-threatening problem with her husband?

 

[goinganywhere]

I think the reason people aren't entertaining the idea that Dad is a problem is
1) he was awarded full custody which means his record is pretty clean, otherwise girls would have gone to foster care or another guardian
2) it reeks of sexism and a distrust of men as parents of girls

<modsnip: Please don't discuss social media> I think the grandma and aunt have used some sort of agency or network of people to hide the girls. I've seen an embarassing level of people thinking they're justified in what they're doing. Yet no one can point to anything the father has done.