Found Safe Canada - O’Driscoll-Zak sisters, 2 & 5, abduction by aunt & grandmother, Cochrane, 12 Mar 2021

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goinganywhere said:
I think the reason people aren't entertaining the idea that Dad is a problem is
1) he was awarded full custody which means his record is pretty clean, otherwise girls would have gone to foster care or another guardian
2) it reeks of sexism and a distrust of men as parents of girls

<modsnip: Please do not discuss social media> I think the grandma and aunt have used some sort of agency or network of people to hide the girls. I've seen an embarassing level of people thinking they're justified in what they're doing. Yet no one can point to anything the father has done.
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The divorce was initiated by the father. He is the plaintiff, she is the defendant. We know that she had custody of the children early on. Perhaps that was based on allegations that suggested he is an unfit father. He filed for divorce, then he's an unfit parent.

If there were allegations that he is an unfit parent, that would have been thoroughly investigated over the past 18 months until the mother could no longer delay, and there was no evidence that he is an unfit parent.

The courts would not award custody to a parent where there is any evidence that the children are at risk with the parent. They lean towards joint custody most of the time, but it requires cooperation of both parents.

Next, the children are abducted.
 
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<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>I've not seen a single assumption about the mother that's not based on linked information. This is a facts-based forum and we can't create negative court information about the father simply to balance the playing field. That's not how it works. I think the focus should be on the safety and welfare of two children that are missing. Again, it's only the father on national news appealing for the return of their children. I too hope the children might see him and ask the captors to take them home.

ETA: The court of appeals serves as a second body for checks and balances and this second court decided the case manager's decisions are appropriate and support the facts of the case.
 
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<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

The mother’s family members are the ones documented to have behaved in a criminal manner, and I highly doubt they did it without the mother’s blessing. The mother is the one playing games with the judge and I don’t blame the judge one bit for being fed up.

I keep hearing “when the truth comes out” about the father but nothing credible ever does. I’m not holding my breath. If there were something against the father it would have been officially documented and revealed by now and the father wouldn’t have been awarded full custody.
 
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LE has stated that the children were abducted by the aunt and grandmother, which means these two ladies can be sleuthed. Are they married/have partners? Did the aunt, grandmother, and mother all live together? If so, that’s unusual. Was it due to financial concerns?
 
<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> the centre of concern now is the well-being of the two children who were abducted by their grandmother and the aunt over two weeks ago.

It’s as if the maternal family view the resolution to the children’s custody the same as stealing a family asset at the centre of a angry ownership battle. No doubt these children have been already traumatized by the separation of their parents, further by the parental alienation and now by their abduction. I have great difficulty in understanding why anyone supports others who intentionally take action resulting in a police search for Missing Persons, especially when children are involved.
 
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I think that it is possible that there is missing info- there are 3+ adults willing to risk a lot to *either* power play OR they could be actually so afraid for the children for their own reasons that have not yet surfaced. I think that it’s absolutely worth LE investigating for the safety of the children. with that said, we don’t have any more to go off of. I do agree with the following posts though:
TGIRecovered said:
The following is based on my observations of crime over the years, not this case in particular:

Let’s not forget that and judges regularly make foolish, dangerous rulings.

Josh Powell was allowed to have contact with his kids and now they’re dead. How many times have we seen a parent go missing, never to be found and the children are left in the home with the killer? We’ve seen parents who are proven out of control violent offenders who retain custody of their children because they haven’t been caught or successfully prosecuted for beating the children yet. Manipulators can fool anyone, including judges, psychologists, psychiatrists, clergy and their own family.

Judges regularly return children to parents who have abused them mentally, physically and emotionally. It happens a lot. That’s how we end up with so many messed up adults.

I don’t know if these children were abused by anyone or if there is some other reason that they shouldn’t be around either parent. I do know that more often than not, when you see children abducted by a male it is out of anger and done to show power, to terrorize the mother or kill the child. It is rare to see grandmothers and aunts disappear with child unless they fear for the child’s safety. 99% of the time I would trust most grandmothers’ natural instinct to protect a child over a judge’s ruling.

I’m not here to argue with anyone who has a different opinion I’m simply stating mine.
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Alice Ramnit said:
I have to respectfully disagree with the assumption that 'problems' or abusive behaviour would be noticed as soon as a child is born. Abuse can be covert and insidious. It can cause the victim to begin to doubt their own judgement and question their ability to cope without the abuser.
Further having babies can make a woman feel quite vulnerable and invested in trying to 'fix' the problems in order to keep the family unified.
As well...'Parental Alienation' has become a tactic that abusive men use when there are attempts to protect the children and prevent the mother from having to be placed in repeated danger during access visits.

Here is a very good blog post on the topic

Parental Alienation Exposed: Exploring The Stereotypes — Rachel Watson Insight
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Dre said:
I think that it is possible that there is missing info- there are 3+ adults willing to risk a lot to *either* power play OR they could be actually so afraid for the children for their own reasons that have not yet surfaced. I think that it’s absolutely worth LE investigating for the safety of the children. with that said, we don’t have any more to go off of. I do agree with the following posts though:
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It could be as simple as mom made up accusations and grandma and aunt believe her without questioning or critical thinking. Have you ever heard of an enmeshed family? Groupthink?

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>
 
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Just putting some thoughts together. As the possibility has been mentioned a few times it wouldn’t surprise me if JOZ has indeed alleged her ex is emotionally/psychologically abusive. If so, if it’s thrown out of court that Judge is probably deemed biased by her as well. Most people coming out of divorce generally don’t part on a friendly handshake. A lot of conflict, disagreement, and angry spoken words build up to it, unfortunately.

But pot calling kettle black and all that.....Court records indicate JOZ engaged in parental alienation of her children toward their dad. Is that not a serious example of emotional/psychological abuse? That’s horrible, to intentionally brainwash innocent children into believing their dad is a bad person while at the same time preventing their contact with him.

There’s certainly poor-performing mothers and dads in this world but even then, no parent has the right to intentionally manipulate a child toward hating their other parent. That’s the epitome in selfishness IMO, leading innocent children to take sides....or other adults for that matter.

Which brings me to the grandmother and aunt. Either they’ve outrightly told the children they’re in hiding to be safe away from their father or they’ve concocted lies regarding the reason they all took off. Either way deception is involved, perhaps creating fear. Is that not emotionally /psychologically abusive toward the children? And aside from the act of abduction, everything else involved, the immediate and after effects, being hidden, being wanted by police, forever-lasting internet media reports and all that. The act of abduction is the opposite to “saving” for many reasons IMO.

Unfortunately the two young children have no say, they’re trapped within a family feud. It seems to me the Court’s authority is respected in making decisions involving their welfare only if it’s to the advantage of the maternal family.

JMO
 
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How many more people are involved in this? They are all being fed and cared for by someone. I believe they are still on the farm somewhere. JMO Wonder if LE are watching which food items family members are buying? More than normal amount of milk and cookies?? KWIM??
 
I’ve been watching this case with a lot of interest and it hit home for me on many levels. Please tell me if this is not allowed on here but I want to share my personal story because I think it’s relevant. When my parents split up my mother started a vicious parental alienation campaign against my father. She accused him of just about everything aside from physical assault. She convinced everyone, because she is a narcissistic sociopath who, while very dramatic, is incredibly convincing. She told my grandparents that my father had threatened to murder her and my siblings and I. So my grandparents took us (including her) to a remote farm where we were told we were going to live from then on. I was so young I don’t remember much of the detail, and I still don’t know what happened for her to change her mind eventually and bring us home. But I believed my father was a terrible person all my life. I wanted nothing to do with him. After all, I had been convinced that he had abused my mother, stolen my college fund money and wanted to murder me at some point. He passed away when I was 22. My mother abused me emotionally my whole life, but when you’ve been gaslit so much it’s hard to see through the fog. A few years later, I tried to become independent and move out of her house. As I separated from her or as she would put it “abandoned her,” I became the new target for the smear campaign. And then I learned the truth about my father through reconciliation with his family. None of it was ever true. I was devastated and broken for the pain I had put my father through, and for the relationship I had missed out on. And when it started unraveling my mother got increasingly unstable. The last time I saw her, she was waving a gun in my face. Anyway, this story reminded me so much of my childhood. And while it might not be the same scenario, it illustrates how convincing someone with the type of psychological makeup my mother has can be to everyone around them, all while they emotionally abuse their children and scar them for life. I truly hope that’s not the fate of these little girls, because I speak from experience when I say it is absolute hell.
 
Sketchy said:
I’ve been watching this case with a lot of interest and it hit home for me on many levels. Please tell me if this is not allowed on here but I want to share my personal story because I think it’s relevant. When my parents split up my mother started a vicious parental alienation campaign against my father. She accused him of just about everything aside from physical assault. She convinced everyone, because she is a narcissistic sociopath who, while very dramatic, is incredibly convincing. She told my grandparents that my father had threatened to murder her and my siblings and I. So my grandparents took us (including her) to a remote farm where we were told we were going to live from then on. I was so young I don’t remember much of the detail, and I still don’t know what happened for her to change her mind eventually and bring us home. But I believed my father was a terrible person all my life. I wanted nothing to do with him. After all, I had been convinced that he had abused my mother, stolen my college fund money and wanted to murder me at some point. He passed away when I was 22. My mother abused me emotionally my whole life, but when you’ve been gaslit so much it’s hard to see through the fog. A few years later, I tried to become independent and move out of her house. As I separated from her or as she would put it “abandoned her,” I became the new target for the smear campaign. And then I learned the truth about my father through reconciliation with his family. None of it was ever true. I was devastated and broken for the pain I had put my father through, and for the relationship I had missed out on. And when it started unraveling my mother got increasingly unstable. The last time I saw her, she was waving a gun in my face. Anyway, this story reminded me so much of my childhood. And while it might not be the same scenario, it illustrates how convincing someone with the type of psychological makeup my mother has can be to everyone around them, all while they emotionally abuse their children and scar them for life. I truly hope that’s not the fate of these little girls, because I speak from experience when I say it is absolute hell.
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Sketchy, thanks very much for sharing your experience. I’m very glad you were able to successfully get well beyond your childhood trauma and reunite with your father’s family. You illustrate by your words why parental alienation is not something to be dismissed. It’s downright nasty and spiteful, absolutely harmful to a child.

Thankfully Family Courts now try to protect children from parental alienation although it appears they’re not always successful, if this current missing persons/abduction is an example.
 
I live in Alberta and have spent a good amount of time in Cochrane so let me know if you have any questions about the area. I do not personally know anyone involved in this case.

What we know of the custody situation strikes me as being remarkably similar to what Kelly Rutherford did. She lost full custody of her children because of it.
 
Here is the biography of the judge on this case: https://www.newswire.ca/news-releas...nts-in-the-province-of-alberta-884963577.html


Justice Price was born in Buckingham, Quebec. Her father was an immigrant from Canton, China, and her mother was mixed Algonquin First Nation and European decent. She is a member of the Kitigan Zibi Anishinabeg First Nation.

Justice Price graduated in 1994 from the University of Calgary with a Bachelor of Arts in political science. She obtained her Bachelor of Laws degree from the University of British Columbia in 1998. She articled and practised at McCarthy Tétrault LLP in the litigation and business law groups, before joining Peacock Linder Halt & Mack LLP in 2004. She became a partner in 2009. As a civil litigator, she practised in a wide range of commercial, energy, construction and general litigation matters.

Justice Price appeared at all levels of court in Alberta and British Columbia and before various regulatory tribunals. She occasionally sat as Inquiry Officer under the Alberta Expropriation Act.

An advocate of alternative dispute resolution, she was involved in many successful dispute resolutions through negotiation, mediation, arbitration and judicial dispute resolution. She chaired the Alberta Provincial and National CBA ADR Sections.

Justice Price most recently served on the Executive of the Alberta Branch of the CBA and is also a long-standing member and past president of the Association of Women Lawyers. She is an active volunteer and mentor.

When not working, spending time with family and friends, or volunteering, she likes to run. She qualified for and ran in the Boston Marathon in 2016, 2017 and 2018. She is also an avid golfer and competitive field hockey player, but first and foremost she is a proud mom.
 
audge86 said:
I live in Alberta and have spent a good amount of time in Cochrane so let me know if you have any questions about the area. I do not personally know anyone involved in this case.

What we know of the custody situation strikes me as being remarkably similar to what Kelly Rutherford did. She lost full custody of her children because of it.
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-I’m not understanding what appears from afar to be a lack of urgency: no alerts, no information about possible cars involved and detailed information about the abductors. Is the community urging or pressuring the RCMP about that? Or is this such a precarious situation that they don’t wish to add more pressure?

-can you describe the home and property the girls were abducted from? Where does the mother, aunt and grandmother live?

- Any sign of activity from the mother? Where is she? I’ve only read a brief statement from her that said she doesn’t know where the children are.

-COVID restrictions to out-of-province seasonal home owners here in NS played a part in RCMP active searches and emergencies here (unoccupied homes, people keeping more to themselves...so, less witnesses etc.) Is it playing a role in this search? I’m not sure what your restrictions are like there.
 
This is the map of the area. If you can link the name O'driscoll to the Rockyview County Roll number, you can locate the property.

Zoom in to the area around Cochrane. The children were last seen at a rural property near Cochrane. Rural could mean 4 acres, perhaps more. Double click on any property on the map to get specific info, no names though.

https://atlas.rockyview.ca/atlas/

https://www.rockyview.ca/approved-development-permits
 
Lexiintoronto said:
-I’m not understanding what appears from afar to be a lack of urgency: no alerts, no information about possible cars involved and detailed information about the abductors. Is the community urging or pressuring the RCMP about that? Or is this such a precarious situation that they don’t wish to add more pressure?

-can you describe the home and property the girls were abducted from? Where does the mother, aunt and grandmother live?

- Any sign of activity from the mother? Where is she? I’ve only read a brief statement from her that said she doesn’t know where the children are.

-COVID restrictions to out-of-province seasonal home owners here in NS played a part in RCMP active searches and emergencies here (unoccupied homes, people keeping more to themselves...so, less witnesses etc.) Is it playing a role in this search? I’m not sure what your restrictions are like there.
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Alberts covid restrictions still quite strict - no indoor social gatherings allowed other than some exceptions for ppl living alone, outdoor max 10 with masking/social distancing. I don’t recall police ever really stating if or how these restrictions might impact their investigations.

I did notice the RCMP twitter still has this case pinned at the top -
https://twitter.com/RCMPAlberta?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

And the status of the last update is “Still Investigating”.
Cochrane RCMP request assistance to locate two children and two adults – Update 2 – Still investigating | Royal Canadian Mounted Police

If the RCMP believe someone is enabling them in hiding out I suppose the reason for no further alerts could be the odds are low for the general public to notice them and call in. Perhaps most the investigation is taking place behind the scenes.

Nothing known of the mother’s current whereabouts. Reportedly the RCMP had told the ex they had talked to her and she didn’t know the location of the four although this was quite early on.
 
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