Casey & Family Psychological Profile #10

[Woe.be.gone]

Okay, but then bringing the above into the Casey Anthony situation, that would mean that as a small child Casey never got her needs met by either George or Cindy?

Based on how they obviously adored Caylee, spent time with her and were interested in her, I would find it difficult to believe that neither of them cared much about their own children.

Oh, and on the when did George know about the pregnancy, I felt that whole story he told was a lie. During the same statement where he said he knew about it in April or May he said his reaction was that he was "over the moon with happiness". Remember taht whole passage? It was kind of ludicrus, given the circumstances of your 19 yr. old unmarried daughter announcing - or in this case, admitting - that she's pregnant.

Now, I do think this family has been "weird" for a long time. All of them, including Lee. But for some reason I don't think things were that weird when Lee and Casey were really young.

Regarding the "never got her needs met by GA and CA" is not exactly what I meant. KC certainly had her needs met by her parents as far as physical needs (housing, food, finances, cothing, toys etc). I believe the needs they met were needs that reflected back onto them in a positive way (ie: cute clothing purchased by CA to look "perfect" to others). But emotional needs, like recognizing KC's true emotions and responding to them appropriately. For instance, again the video of Caylee snuggling with GGP, it wasn't Caylee's or GGP's need for Caylee to hug and kiss him. There was no need to do anything but just enjoy those moments between this little one and her elderly Papa, but CA had a need she could not override and forced Caylee to stop her own emotional feelings and natural interaction w/GGP to comply w/CA's demand to hug and kiss. In that interaction, Caylee and GGP then had to stop their sweet moment of relationship to comply w/CA's need. This demand of "performance" from CA was not for the benefit of GGP or Caylee, it was purely to meet CA's need. A need for Caylee to perform for her. If a pattern of behavior overtime is established, where each time CA sees someone else's emotions don't fit w/CA's agenda, CA's agenda will always override KC's eventually. I think this speaks to the interaction between KC and her Mom in jail. "Will somebody just let me (speak/feel)?" In essence, KC may have grown up in a house w/an extremely "esteem sensitive" parent who feels their child must look perfect at all times in order for the parent to look perfect to the outside world. It is all about how they think others will perceive them (narcissism). The child is a reflection of themselves.[/QUOTE]

:waitasec:

Definitely food for thought. Also those actions bleed into the no boundaries subject of human behavior along with the controlling natures some people have.

I'm thinking about how best to instruct a child then. How many times I've innocently said "give _____ a hug" with both subjects standing right in front of me. Possibly, I should have consuled the child in the car on the way to where we were going by suggesting that if he feels comfortable I'm sure Grandma or Auntie, would appreciate a warm hug from him. There are probably degrees of right and wrong, overkill, etc. When the child is very young a prompting to say "thank you" when handed something by another is probably okay. Modelling good behavior is always okay but I think needs to be reinforced with conversations about what good behavior is, why we need good behavior in regards to how it benefits you individually and how it benefits others, etc. Young boys are not always great observers imo and prefer to move quickly through events.

Thinking on these things reminds me of feeling uncomfortable when the room goes quiet - someone must break the silence eventually but who, how, when and why? That said, is it polite to get together and expect to be entertained and not contribute? It can be unnerving for a talkative person to sit across from a person who can only muster "yep" and "nope" answers. What I'm getting at is we must become more aware of individual boundaries, temperments that differ from our own, personalities and disorders of such, proper teaching venues and just a general awareness of how our well meaning tendencies may actually be harmful if taken to extremes. I swear, at my age, I have never truly assessed these things before among and within my relations. Homework time.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

"Based on how they obviously adored Caylee, spent time with her and were interested in her, I would find it difficult to believe that neither of them cared much about their own children. "

Respectfully clipped, this made me think for a minute. Perhaps Casey simply needed more than they had to give. She seems to be ultra needy. Perhaps no matter what they did for Casey, it was never enough? (I'm mainly making conversation, this in no way makes what she did to Caylee ok, nothing ever will.)

I've always been advised that a child will act out to test the boundaries and it is the parents role to set them. If we don't set them, the child will interpret that as they don't care enough to set me straight or I guess it's okay for me to do this because there are no consequences.

There are many books on the subject of strong willed children that offer guidance to parents who want to do the right thing but face constant opposition thus making their job a lot more difficult. Some kids respond with obediance to the slightest correction while others will resist almost to their death it seems. Plus it's sort of funny when a woman has a first born who is easy going and even natured so the mother concludes that she is a great mother (which she is because she is mindful but things are easy) and then along comes little Jimmy! I'm not being sexist - just wrote it that way because I know those people. :crazy:

Casey does seem extremely needy but we also know beyond any doubt that there was serious denial going on in regard to her antisocial behavior with the stealing, lying and avoiding that took place in her life. The A's never reacted firmly with appropriate consequences imo.

 

[TinaD]

I'm thinking about how best to instruct a child then. How many times I've innocently said "give _____ a hug" with both subjects standing right in front of me. Possibly, I should have consuled the child in the car on the way to where we were going by suggesting that if he feels comfortable I'm sure Grandma or Auntie, would appreciate a warm hug from him. There are probably degrees of right and wrong, overkill, etc. When the child is very young a prompting to say "thank you" when handed something by another is probably okay. Modelling good behavior is always okay but I think needs to be reinforced with conversations about what good behavior is, why we need good behavior in regards to how it benefits you individually and how it benefits others, etc. Young boys are not always great observers imo and prefer to move quickly through events.

A very interesting a thought provoking post. The piece I have quoted reminds me of a position I've always had, and am currently trying to outline to my son and his girlfriend (they have aone year old girl), which is OT for this thread so I apologise...... anyway, I have never thought it was right to insist that a child kiss, hug or have any bodily contact with another person, unless they want to. Saying "thank you" and other manners is different, it's just physical contact that I won't push. Children need to feel that they are in charge of their body and have the right to say "no".

 

[Schmerty_Jones]

This is an extremely interesting thread, with appropriate relevance to the Anthony Family in general & Casey O'Marie :crazy:in particular. Thank you for starting this and for the many informative posts.!

 

[wenwe4]

A very interesting a thought provoking post. The piece I have quoted reminds me of a position I've always had, and am currently trying to outline to my son and his girlfriend (they have aone year old girl), which is OT for this thread so I apologise...... anyway, I have never thought it was right to insist that a child kiss, hug or have any bodily contact with another person, unless they want to. Saying "thank you" and other manners is different, it's just physical contact that I won't push. Children need to feel that they are in charge of their body and have the right to say "no".

WGB & TinaD, Very insightful! I know we are ot, but I have to say that many a parent have kicked themselves for forcing their child to hug & kiss extended family members/friends/neighbors, only later to find out this person was a perpetrator. If nothing else, hopefully mods will keep this post out of the pl just for the general message to the masses. Talk to your kids ahead of time and keep mindful if they really don't want to hug someone - they should never have to.

Ok, we return you back your regularly scheduled topic.

 

[ynotdivein]

There are many books on the subject of strong willed children that offer guidance to parents who want to do the right thing but face constant opposition thus making their job a lot more difficult. Some kids respond with obediance to the slightest correction while others will resist almost to their death it seems. Plus it's sort of funny when a woman has a first born who is easy going and even natured so the mother concludes that she is a great mother (which she is because she is mindful but things are easy) and then along comes little Jimmy! I'm not being sexist - just wrote it that way because I know those people. :crazy:

Casey does seem extremely needy but we also know beyond any doubt that there was serious denial going on in regard to her antisocial behavior with the stealing, lying and avoiding that took place in her life. The A's never reacted firmly with appropriate consequences imo.

Thank you for your post, WBG. I snipped to focus on this section because you got me thinking about research on birth order and personality. (John Bradshaw's work touches on birth order in the context of family dysfunctions, particularly substance abuse.) Firstborns supposedly tend to be the more buttoned-down, less demonstrative, more reserved ones, more sensitive to managing or maintaining a peaceful family dynamic. Seconds and middles are supposedly more likely to test boundaries and act out in obvious ways. Lee's behaviors seem to fall in line in a lot of ways with these theories, IMO. Anyone here more expert in birth order theory as it may apply to this case?

 

[sharpar]

In dysfunctional family systems roles are assigned to children scapegoat golden child clown rescuer/ savior and several others. Birth order can contribute to the reasons for the role assignments designated by the dominant wingnut. Not being held accountable was just as damaging and as abusive as if she had been beaten and burned .

 

[cloud]

What is BFD?

The post you quoted (or replied to) said BPD - borderline personality disorder.

JMHO

 

[cloud]

Anyone heard of the "terrible two(s)" ? A child turning two when they demand and need more care and attention than ever. It can just be as simple as that.

However. Nurture vs nature will always be an argument that, IMO, won't be resolved any time soon, if ever.

In my view, Caylee could have had the best, but instead had the worst of both.

I believe it was due to unresolved family issues that happened a very long time before Caylee was even on the horizon, maybe - at a stretch - even when Casey was only a glint in her parent's eyes.

I believe this family's dynamics started a long time ago, and that it unfortunately culminated with Caylee's killing. I'm sorry to be so graphic, but it's what it is, IMO. I don't think this was an accident. I think it was some very sick attempt at revenge, or an "I'll show you" attitude, in response to all the family arguments that were going on, and the way Casey was spinning out of control at that time.

JMHO, though

 

[Just Jayla]

Trying to understand CA a little better, don't know why-I vacillate on her....

She must have had moments where she found out about things that KC did and wondered to herself if KC was "off." She probably went through it in her mind a lot.
I am sure she even said something to KC about it before, maybe told KC she needed help (and in KC's way, she spins that with her friends...drama, liar...telling them she feels she needs to be committed).
I can only imagine that if CA told KC that she was concerned about her mental health, it would most likely be in the throws of an argument or would cause an argument, and KC would make CA feel like a jerk for suggesting mental illness.
GA might back up CA on her concerns, but CA still did not have enough support to validate her suspicions that KC was sociopathic. She went to a counselor, and the counselor wanted her to take action (kick KC out). That required an evolution for CA, because action was always confrontation with KC, and CA had to be able to stand up to the nastiness and stay strong in her decision.
Then, there was Caylee. The counselor was not effective for CA, because the counselor said it was okay for KC to leave with Caylee. CA diagreed on this point, and was back to square one-She needs to confront KC with a support system, but Caylee needs to stay.
CA should have found another counselor and talked openly about her real concerns for Caylee's safety. The counselor could have given her more informed advice as to how to deal with the situation. CA would have felt supported by the couselor and would become more firm in following through with the situation. But she would have had to address some things about KC, IMO, that she did not want to visit.

CA absolutely knows what happened, not necessarily how, but she knows the outcome and the perpetrator. Hoping she is talking to someone that can help her clearly see what happened and where she is now. But if she is not going to be brutally honest about what she knows in her heart, I have to throw up my hands, I guess.

 

[cloud]

I propose that CA had at least as many issues as KC does, and passed them on - not knowingly, just by behaviour (that's where nurture kicks in).

I also believe that nature informs on that, because CA is not what I would call stable, or even rational. She functions perfectly well as an individual, but in a family context... not so much at all. She needs to be in control always, and when she loses that, she seems to lose herself, and tries to regain that control by any means, so she can be "herself" again.

Like mother like daughter... genetics and environment combined. Which goes to show that the two can be a deadly combination. Poor dear Caylee is the one who paid for it. The other two are still at it, as far as I can see.

JMO

 

[OneLostGrl]

Thank you for stating the distinction above - THEY ARE AWARE OF WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG THEY CHOSE NOT TO FOLLOW IT. This is precisely why we begin teaching a small child right from wrong and usually we see shaping and positive responses as we go along over time. If we don't, we should be concerned and find out if there is something developmentally wrong (easier said then done I'm afraid). That said, it's a process and black and white answers are not always available (as in ADHD, etc.) but the worst thing would be to accept and ignore the behavior imo.

Excellent! Makes clear for me why people say there are sociopaths who never kill people, etc. It's not that they'd loose sleep over it if they did, it's just that they know they'd probably have to pay for their wrongdoing and don't want to risk sitting behind bars for their life because they care about theirself. Therefore, it's not their conscious, morals or feelings of brotherly love "do on to others as you would have them do unto you" keeping them from committing high crime; it's their intelligence and/or some semblence of forward thinking keeping them from crossing criminal lines. I can imagine then, if you have a child with sociopathic leanings and never enforce consequences for their bad bahavior, how those two combinations could be a breeding ground for creating a dangerous adult.

Then, we must ask ourselves, could there be something else lacking in a killer sociopathic person such as lack of impulse control to such an extent as in an animal, or some emotional lacking as in I don't matter to anyone (despite proof otherwise but they can't feel it or believe it) therefore, noone else matters to me if they're not "with" me. It goes beyond survival instinct though and into the domain of control.

Great post, Woe!

 

[OneLostGrl]

I propose that CA had at least as many issues as KC does, and passed them on - not knowingly, just by behaviour (that's where nurture kicks in).

I also believe that nature informs on that, because CA is not what I would call stable, or even rational. She functions perfectly well as an individual, but in a family context... not so much at all. She needs to be in control always, and when she loses that, she seems to lose herself, and tries to regain that control by any means, so she can be "herself" again.

Like mother like daughter... genetics and environment combined. Which goes to show that the two can be a deadly combination. Poor dear Caylee is the one who paid for it. The other two are still at it, as far as I can see.

JMO

Cindy is a sick woman who causes much damage to each of her "loved ones". IMO.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Thank you for your post, WBG. I snipped to focus on this section because you got me thinking about research on birth order and personality. (John Bradshaw's work touches on birth order in the context of family dysfunctions, particularly substance abuse.) Firstborns supposedly tend to be the more buttoned-down, less demonstrative, more reserved ones, more sensitive to managing or maintaining a peaceful family dynamic. Seconds and middles are supposedly more likely to test boundaries and act out in obvious ways. Lee's behaviors seem to fall in line in a lot of ways with these theories, IMO. Anyone here more expert in birth order theory as it may apply to this case?

IMO a typical family birth order situation is different than a family with personality disorders.

I have linked this before but will again in case anyone is interested in reading it.

part 1-

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=28642&cn=8

2-
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_index.php?idx=119&d=1&w=5&e=28645

3-
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_index.php?idx=119&d=1&w=5&e=28646

 

[KariKae]

A lot of people describe living with a BPD-type as "walking on eggshells" because of how quickly they can strike out when they feel threatened. They are also expert at manipulating things to cast blame on anyone but themselves. Very difficult to manage a relationship with one.

That's exactly right. There's even a book called "Walking on Eggshells" about people with BPD. It was very enlightening when dealing with the BPD person in my life. The thing is...You have no idea what is going to set them off. One minute they can be the most charming, loving person. The next minute they are flying into a rage because you forgot to put ice in their lemonade.

I do believe Casey loved Caylee - I just think she loved herself a whole lot more.

 

[OneLostGrl]

That's exactly right. There's even a book called "Walking on Eggshells" about people with BPD. It was very enlightening when dealing with the BPD person in my life. The thing is...You have no idea what is going to set them off. One minute they can be the most charming, loving person. The next minute they are flying into a rage because you forgot to put ice in their lemonade.

I do believe Casey loved Caylee - I just think she loved herself a whole lot more.

See, I don't think Casey even likes, let alone loves herself. Because of her IMO Borderline mother constantly crossing boundries, enmeshment, splitting, co-dependant and enabling behaviors I don't think Casey even knows who she is. She is whatever it is her mommy says she is.. until she isn't. Then she acts out in a big way and mommy won't even accept the truth of it (pregnant, lying about jobs, school etc), instead she creates an alternate reality for her daughter and goes on with her life as if everything is fine.. until it isn't. (people noticing the pregancy, Casey not being able to graduate, grandma b!tching cuz the money out of grandpas account)

Being raised by a borderline parent is a very confusing and often scary existence. You are not allowed to feel your own feelings (you are told what you feel is wrong), think your own thoughts, form your own opinions or live your own life. These parents truly steal their childrens identity before they can even form one. I think Casey meant it when she texted TonE saying she hates herself and is the worst mother in the world. I think her self hatred and feelings of worthlessness is what led to her destructive behaviors.

MO.

 

[ynotdivein]

IMO a typical family birth order situation is different than a family with personality disorders.

I have linked this before but will again in case anyone is interested in reading it.

part 1-

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=28642&cn=8

2-
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_index.php?idx=119&d=1&w=5&e=28645

3-
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_index.php?idx=119&d=1&w=5&e=28646

Whoa--missed this before. Simple thanks click wasn't enough. Thank you for reposting! :clap:

 

[cloud]

See, I don't think Casey even likes, let alone loves herself. Because of her IMO Borderline mother constantly crossing boundries, enmeshment, splitting, co-dependant and enabling behaviors I don't think Casey even knows who she is. She is whatever it is her mommy says she is.. until she isn't. Then she acts out in a big way and mommy won't even accept the truth of it (pregnant, lying about jobs, school etc), instead she creates an alternate reality for her daughter and goes on with her life as if everything is fine.. until it isn't. (people noticing the pregancy, Casey not being able to graduate, grandma b!tching cuz the money out of grandpas account)

Being raised by a borderline parent is a very confusing and often scary existence. You are not allowed to feel your own feelings (you are told what you feel is wrong), think your own thoughts, form your own opinions or live your own life. These parents truly steal their childrens identity before they can even form one. I think Casey meant it when she texted TonE saying she hates herself and is the worst mother in the world. I think her self hatred and feelings of worthlessness is what led to her destructive behaviors.

MO.

With respect, she loved herself enough to put herself before her child's needs, to even "forget" that she was "missing" and go looking for her in bars, "grinding" on the dance floor, show off in an American flag, pose for the camera, talk about herself in texts and voice calls, call her child Caylee a snot-head, rage at her parents because they were (shock, horror!!) not focusing on her, but on finding Caylee, stealing money from family and friends to buy herself clothes and tatoos... This is not someone who hates herself... it's someone who thinks everyone in the world owes her everything and she owes nothing back.

To me, she sounds like an individual on a mision to treat herself to anything and everything she can (or cannot) at the expense of anyone else but herself. I would call that narcissistic and sociopathic behaviour.

JMO

 

[Woe.be.gone]

See, I don't think Casey even likes, let alone loves herself. Because of her IMO Borderline mother constantly crossing boundries, enmeshment, splitting, co-dependant and enabling behaviors I don't think Casey even knows who she is. She is whatever it is her mommy says she is.. until she isn't. Then she acts out in a big way and mommy won't even accept the truth of it (pregnant, lying about jobs, school etc), instead she creates an alternate reality for her daughter and goes on with her life as if everything is fine.. until it isn't. (people noticing the pregancy, Casey not being able to graduate, grandma b!tching cuz the money out of grandpas account)

Being raised by a borderline parent is a very confusing and often scary existence. You are not allowed to feel your own feelings (you are told what you feel is wrong), think your own thoughts, form your own opinions or live your own life. These parents truly steal their childrens identity before they can even form one. I think Casey meant it when she texted TonE saying she hates herself and is the worst mother in the world. I think her self hatred and feelings of worthlessness is what led to her destructive behaviors.

MO.

It's easy to imagine that KC never had anybody point out to her what her inner qualities were but put a lot of emphasis on her looks. I'll never understand why her parents didn't make her earn that last credit in order to graduate high school. Talk about lazy. IMO GA should have made sure she graduated. He could have taken car privledges from her - it was too easy for parent to accomplish that one imo but the A's didn't even try. Instead they blamed the school. As far as KC is concerned, she must have had a desire to fail or something to be that lame. The 1/2 credit short thing is self sabatoge of sorts. I could better understand if a person drops out at the beginning of their Junior year because they are troubled or struggling for some reason but 1/2 credit short and then act as if it doesn't matter - that's rediculous and imo indicative of some deeper problem. It's almost as if she was crying out for someone to insist she not screw up or something. It's as if the A's never had any hopes for KC to "become" anything because they didn't pay attention to what she was doing at all when you think about it. Weird. Most people tell stories about what is going on at work, the people there, who bugs them, stories relating to the boss both good and bad, challenges they have at work regarding deadlines, people or even boredom. Think about it, who doesn't talk to family and friends about their job especially when you're in your twenties. Plus they should have been disappointed and concerned when KC got pregnant and hid it from them to boot. No parent in their right mind would be thrilled at first under those circumstances. Who do these people think they're kidding. :crazy:


Cloud, I hear what you're saying but those behaviors are all selfish and shallow but not indicative of love as in esteem. I interpreted OLG's post to mean KC doesn't love herself at a deep level. She definitely had a self entitlement thing going on though.

 

[cloud]

Respectfully snipped for brevity.

Cloud, I hear what you're saying but those behaviors are all selfish and shallow but not indicative of love as in esteem. I interpreted OLG's post to mean KC doesn't love herself at a deep level. She definitely had a self entitlement thing going on though.

I hear what you're saying too... at a deep level. That's why I suggested that this family had and has deeper issues than we'll ever know, even though we can see some clear glimpses. The ultimate was Caylee. They can still try to hide those issues, whatever they are, but I don't think they're going to be as successful as they have been in the past, because when the death of an innocent 2-year old child comes into play - that's the time when all the skeletons come out of the cupboard. Not to you or me, but to LE. Even, maybe, to themselves.

JMHO