Cause of Death and Time of Death *MERGED* (Warning: Contains Graphic Content!)

[Mountain_Kat]

BBM

Yes yes and yes. I hope the Dudley Shoals find and recovery was her head. And I also hope they had wrapped it or possibly put it in a bag that would have really slowed the decomp process. Hair toxicology will tell a lot but if there was facial bruising pre-mortem or a broken cheek bone or broken nose, possibly blows to the back of her head or the top. It will very much tell the story. This could even be true of the other remains recovery. Hopefully the abuse she suffered will be proven.

Post editted to remove comments.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Post editted to remove comments.

(Sorry guys...no delete option.)

 

[writer7]

The only dismemberment I've heard of that would fit any reasons other than a coverup -- and it's not as uncommon as you might think -- has to do with hiding that you are carrying a body.

There have been a lot of cases where folks cut off the legs to make them fit in a smaller box, bag or trunk. It was to help hide that the container held a body inside.

With larger bodies, it was to make them easier to carry, period.

OTOH, with all of the wood and tools, etc. that are commonly carried in their area, I'd think it's not exactly the same as a New York apartment. Who knows, though? It certainly would have thrown off suspicion at the time if any neighbors saw them carrying her remains.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

The only dismemberment I've heard of that would fit any reasons other than a coverup -- and it's not as uncommon as you might think -- has to do with hiding that you are carrying a body.

There have been a lot of cases where folks cut off the legs to make them fit in a smaller box, bag or trunk. It was to help hide that the container held a body inside.

With larger bodies, it was to make them easier to carry, period.

OTOH, with all of the wood and tools, etc. that are commonly carried in their area, I'd think it's not exactly the same as a New York apartment. Who knows, though? It certainly would have thrown off suspicion at the time if any neighbors saw them carrying her remains.

Certainly a plausible thought, Writer. And one I hadn't even considered.

I will say, I could buy that if I thought only EB did the killing and the dismemberment. But for a father to dismember his own child...I don't know...I think there would have to be ALOT more driving that choice then just easier handling/easier to conceal.

Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe he's just as mentally unbalanced as she is...who knows?

 

[Pondering Mind]

The only dismemberment I've heard of that would fit any reasons other than a coverup -- and it's not as uncommon as you might think -- has to do with hiding that you are carrying a body.

There have been a lot of cases where folks cut off the legs to make them fit in a smaller box, bag or trunk. It was to help hide that the container held a body inside.

With larger bodies, it was to make them easier to carry, period.

OTOH, with all of the wood and tools, etc. that are commonly carried in their area, I'd think it's not exactly the same as a New York apartment. Who knows, though? It certainly would have thrown off suspicion at the time if any neighbors saw them carrying her remains.

Some of the *experts* on Levi Page's show were discussing exactly this the other night..one even mentioned dismemberment for ease of removing a body from somewhere like an apartment. While I don't believe the fear of being seen was the reason here, it was an interesting topic nevertheless...

For anyone that doesn't know, Levi is a member here and has an awesome live show on blogtalk radio. You can listen to future and past shows here~

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/levipage

 

[docwho3]

. . .Remember the recent story about the young mother beating
her son to death because he interrupted her online game? Do we have any indication at
how much time EB spent playing online?. . .

I do not know how much time she spent online.

I think this could someday become part of a defense at trial. Instead of being inhuman monsters
they might be portrayed as poor people suffering from the evil internet addiction.

'The internet made me do it.'

Did having to care for Zahra interfere with their play time? Yes, but most parents learn
to make sacrifices of some of their own play time for the sake of the child they
are raising. They don't usually beat the child to death over it.

But a psychopath is a very different sort of being:
A Psychopath, in my opinion, might indeed beat or kill over someone coming between them
and anything they wanted, whether that was the internet or a chicken sandwich.

 

[Paulette]

First they found her prosthetic leg. Then they found a bone in the woods. Then they dug a large hole & found human remains in it. Then they searched a creek. Then the search was called off & LE was satisfied.

Do I have that sequence right?

If so, that certainly points to dismemberment to me.

 

[NoeticSoul]

I do not know how much time she spent online.

I think this could someday become part of a defense at trial. Instead of being inhuman monsters
they might be portrayed as poor people suffering from the evil internet addiction.

'The internet made me do it.'

Did having to care for Zahra interfere with their play time? Yes, but most parents learn
to make sacrifices of some of their own play time for the sake of the child they
are raising. They don't usually beat the child to death over it.

But a psychopath is a very different sort of being:
A Psychopath, in my opinion, might indeed beat or kill over someone coming between them
and anything they wanted, whether that was the internet or a chicken sandwich.

ITA

IMHO the Internet is the cause of the beatings and routine neglect-- ala EB. I'm sure she hated to be disturbed for a sandwich let alone attending to Zahra's medical needs or schooling.

I don't see "the internet made me do it" being used as a defense. But it sure will offer a glean into the sick characters these two truly are in REAL LIFE.

 

[Paulette]

I have a feeling she died from disease. Her cancer returned and they neglected to get her treated. Dismemberment might have occurred because they didn't have money to bury her.

Since the neighbors had never seen a child at the house, she may have been too sick to go outside.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

'The internet made me do it.'


But a psychopath is a very different sort of being:
A Psychopath, in my opinion, might indeed beat or kill over someone coming between them
and anything they wanted, whether that was the internet or a chicken sandwich.

*snipped for focus

ITA

And do I see a new legal term in our futures?

The Chicken Sandwich Defense?

 

[Linda7NJ]

IMO No way did this child succumb to any virus, disease or medical condition. She was brutally murdered.

 

[ynotdivein]

Good morning WS! :coffeecup:

The topic of this thread is possible cause(s) of death for Zahra, but it feels like we are getting hung up on manner of disposal.

While the two might be related (if the manner of disposal was chosen to hide something about the cause of death), we should try and stick to the main topic at hand.

TY! :wave:

 

[drip~drop]

I have a feeling she died from disease. Her cancer returned and they neglected to get her treated. Dismemberment might have occurred because they didn't have money to bury her.

Since the neighbors had never seen a child at the house, she may have been too sick to go outside.

911!!!

If Zahra was ill, call 911

If Zahra passed, call 911!

Not a chance in the world that people wouldn't get together to give that sweet angel a proper burial. The funeral home may have kicked in, the locals, churches.....anybody.

CHILDREN ARE NOT THROW-AWAYS!!!! (not yelling at Paulette...just in general)
imo

 

[WhyaDuck?]

Knock it the heck off now, folks!

Until someone can provide me with believable evidence that AB is Aboriginal, and is trained in Aborigine practices, this theory is not worth the unbelievable level of cultural derision I am seeing in this thread. It is not an "LOL" to crap on another culture and take rituals out of context in a thread like this.

If someone here is a verified expert on these rituals, please contact me - until then, a bunch of Wiki snippets don't cut it for me.

Also, while I understand the need to respond to posts that offend, DON'T - you'll only get yourself in trouble if you violate the TOS, even if you feel your heart is in the right place. Now, I see a lot of anger in this thread, but I don't see any alerts in my box. You have to alert if people start going out of bounds, and I would like to be able to count on you for this.

The thread on this matter was pulled because of the upset it was causing. For now, you need to take that as a great big indicator that the subject is a giant red flag. Leave it alone until you can provide the information I requested - hard, documented evidence of AB's background, and an expert on this ritual.

Get back to the topic of cause of death - Ynotdivein is completely correct - this thread is so far OT it isn't even fulfilling its purpose any more.

Carry on, and behave yourselves.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Good morning WS! :coffeecup:

The topic of this thread is possible cause(s) of death for Zahra, but it feels like we are getting hung up on manner of disposal.

While the two might be related (if the manner of disposal was chosen to hide something about the cause of death), we should try and stick to the main topic at hand.

TY! :wave:

(Good morning.)

I think, for some of us , discussing the means of death just logically leads to a discussion about the manner of disposal. For instance, I can't address poison/cancer/neglect theories without pointing to what (I believe to be) blood evidence in the bedroom, and (what I believe to be) dismemberment of the body after death.

If we just want to say, "Hey, I think she died of cancer", and leave that opinion stand on it's on, without any discussion of the facts , then it's an utterly pointless discussion for my purposes.

JMO

 

[WhyaDuck?]

(Good morning.)

I think, for some of us , discussing the means of death just logically leads to a discussion about the manner of disposal. For instance, I can't address poison/cancer/neglect theories without pointing to what (I believe to be) blood evidence in the bedroom, and (what I believe to be) dismemberment of the body after death.

If we just want to say, "Hey, I think she died of cancer", and leave that opinion stand on it's on, without any discussion of the facts , then it's an utterly pointless discussion for my purposes.

JMO

I totally agree that some discussion of disposal is warranted in the discussion of cause of death - but just not to the exclusion of it, which was what we had pages of last night.

 

[ynotdivein]

(Good morning.)

I think, for some of us , discussing the means of death just logically leads to a discussion about the manner of disposal. For instance, I can't address poison/cancer/neglect theories without pointing to what (I believe to be) blood evidence in the bedroom, and (what I believe to be) dismemberment of the body after death.

If we just want to say, "Hey, I think she died of cancer", and leave that opinion stand on it's on, without any discussion of the facts , then it's an utterly pointless discussion for my purposes.

JMO

Totally understood and agreed M_K! As WhyaDuck? points out above, and you mention in the bit I bolded ^, it's the facts that will lead us (and LE) in appropriate directions for Zahra.

I tend to agree with the LE adage that the most obvious explanation is the most likely one (or to paraphrase it a different way, "KISS"). IMO the two simplest possible explanations for the facts of Zahra's dismemberment and the dispersal of her remains are:

1. To make it less likely that someone would happen upon a complete set of remains that were clearly identifiable as those of a human child (particularly one with a VERY recognizable left femur), [this hypothesis allows for any number of actual causes of death], or

2. To hide evidence of prior trauma to the body by further traumatizing it [this hypothesis allows for abuse causing death, or abuse preceding some other cause of death] .

MOO of course...

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I totally agree that some discussion of disposal is warranted in the discussion of cause of death - but just not to the exclusion of it, which was what we had pages of last night.

My thoughts exactly, Duck.

 

[wenwe4]

I keep coming back to the house. I have thought of the reasons they might have taken the wall sheet rock in her bedroom. Some ideas going thru my neurons:
1) Evidence of Zahra being 'body slammed' into the wall
2) Bodily fluids
3) Writing on the wall? (ie: Zahra wrote help)
4)

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I keep coming back to the house. I have thought of the reasons they might have taken the wall sheet rock in her bedroom. Some ideas going thru my neurons:
1) Evidence of Zahra being 'body slammed' into the wall
2) Bodily fluids
3) Writing on the wall? (ie: Zahra wrote help)
4)

Regarding # 1: I think LE photographs would suffice. No need to remove that portion of drywall. What evidence can you obtain from empty space (i.e; hole)

Regarding #3: Same as above.

That leaves me looking at #2, and I can't see any earthly way that cancer/poison/neglect would cause bodily fluids to be on a wall.

JMO