Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #2

[elastic]

This is quite interesting, I was trying to find some stuff on Morey and someone here had this link:
http://www.news.com.au/news/lost-in-the-devils-garden/story-fna7dq6e-1111113619174

There is a part where Debbie Marshall the crime writer says the following:

Marshall also includes the cases of Hayley Dodd and Sarah McMahon who disappeared in 1999 and 2000. She believes the police have not exhausted the possibility that they – Sarah, in particular – could also be victims of the Claremont killer.“I do think she could be a victim, yes, I do. There is no way you can wipe it out,” she says.
But Mr Lampard dismisses this allegation out of hand.

I am not a fan of Debbie Marshall but I have the utmost respect for her being a crime writer, we have no investigative journalists in WA and its a sad sorry state so reading something from anyone who has done their own research is always refreshing...

She believes McMahon is definitely linked.

The article:
http://www.news.com.au/news/lost-in-the-devils-garden/story-fna7dq6e-1111113619174

The article is time stamped May 27, 2007. We already knew Morey was the MAIN suspect is Sarah McMahons murder at that date, she is a crime writer and would have done a thorough investigation into it too....

But then again we have Parkie and DrPath and all those West Australian experts all trying to outdo each other for the next sensationalist expert analysis into the psyche of the Claremont Serial Killer.... hmmmmm.

 

[elastic]

The cemetery rape victim was abducted from a different area and taken to the cemetery, a quiet secluded area, where he could commit his crime in private. A fledgling killer's first known attempt. Much research has been done which has shown that serial killers often make mistakes such as the CSK did in the cemetery rape before they perfect their craft.

I don't think he is 'meticulous' and 'precise' at all. He is more than likely a meth addict junkie with impotence who was hiding in the bushes late at night waiting for an easy victim to emerge to bungle into the back of his VAN in a blitz attack before carting her hopelessly round the corner to the cemetery late at night to have his way with her and probably then kill her. The wreckless meth junkie, off his chops at the time and struggling to impose himself on her due to meth induced state of psychosis gave her an opportunity to run off and escape leaving the CSK terrified that his 'meticulous' grand plan hasn't even started and he is more or less caught, but due to a miraculous balls up in the Police work they ignore the case and focus on useless leads and hone in on desperate targets making them POI's whilst our 'meticulous' cemetery rapist plots his next attempt to abduct and kill some innocent alone female unfortunate to be at the wrong place and at the wrong time whilst he preyed around a night spot that was familiar to him (Maybe he grew up here, maybe he still lived in the area)

He then possibly changes his vehicle to something else, maybe a station wagon, did the rape victim remember the car? he probably decided to change cars just in case and bought himself a station wagon which could do a similar job.

Three CSK kills later he abondons the area, the heat is too much, despite knowing the area like the back of his hand its now considered far too risky and an easier hunting ground is found, the immortality complex of the wrong man being a POI and possibly 3 potential CSK POI at the time make him feel relaxed and capable to keep his kills up as long as his MO has changed.

Now they are analysing trace elements of chord or cable that may have been left deep into the skin of both Ciara Glennon and the rape victim and they know they can link the two cases because even though the CSK might have changed cars, he kept the same chord, or cable for these abductions. He probably then changed to a rope or something when he changed MO's and ditched everything.

They probably dont have the DNA foir the Karakatta rapist, but they are probably now thinking if they do have chord and they can lift trace elements off of the chord or cable that may be skin particles from the killer when he squeezed the cable really hard...

All this talk of forensics eventually leading to the killers capture in the next few years, maybe they donthave much to analyse, but the technologies there and they are making upgrades and advancements to their technology and equipment in their forensic labs so they can lift those elements..

Could they not be bothered that the CSK will kill again and could they be taking there time to analyse and get everything ready for the inevitable case, they have time, is the CSK currently locked up for another crime, so they casually gather as much evidence as possible without jumping the gun, keep multiple POI's so they dont seem like they have tunnel vision, and be working the case to its conclusion.

Probably, If you are as stupid as the CSK is and attempt to rape someone in a cemetery and let them get away then you wont be hard to catch if the CSK left a little bit of good, but tiny particles of evidence on objects that are only just now able to be analysed?

The timing seems somewhat coincidental.

 

[drpath]

The Crime Investigation Australia episode about the CSK, made in conjunction with the WA Police, states the following regarding the CSK profile that was developed by Police in liaison with Claude Menicini and former FBI Captain David Caldwell...

"All that's (publicly) revealed about the killer's profile is that he's organised and that the abductions were carefully planned and controlled...this person clearly knew what he was doing and had planned it meticulously right down to what they were going to do when the girls got in the car, how they would restrain them...it would have to have been well planned for it to be carried out so well"

My statements about the Claremont Serial Killer are hardly presumptions. They are based on the parts of the criminal profile that the police have released to the public. It is very unlikely that the CSK was a bumbling meth addict when he abducted and murdered Sarah Spiers, Jane Rimmer, and Ciara Glennon.

 

[elastic]

Was looking at this article and Morey makes this specific quote in 2012

"Man, if I'm supposed to be this mad serial killer running around, why would I be carrying this bag around with me."

Who has accused him of being a 'serial killer' . This sounds like he has been questioned about being a 'serial killer' That means at least 3 confirmed kills on separate occasions.

He said the above quote here:

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/sarahs-still-alive-living-overseas-morey-20121214-2beir.html

So in 2012 he was so assured of himself from being branded a 'serial killer' that he was prepared to say it in a Coroners Court. I wonder why he said it, his thoughts behind getting that out there so everyone could hear those words.. Were the police heavily interrogating him then about being a 'serial killer' not just a 'killer'

 

[drpath]

Judoman

If they have Judman's DNA and it's correct that police have Karrakatta man's DNA then Judoman is not Karrakatta Man.


If police are telling the truth that they have a forensic link between Karrakatta Man and CSK then we're talking about someone who is off the grid so far.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[elastic]

The Crime Investigation Australia episode about the CSK, made in conjunction with the WA Police, states the following regarding the CSK profile that was developed by Police in liaison with Claude Menicini and former FBI Captain David Caldwell...

"All that's (publicly) revealed about the killer's profile is that he's organised and that the abductions were carefully planned and controlled...this person clearly knew what he was doing and had planned it meticulously right down to what they were going to do when the girls got in the car, how they would restrain them...it would have to have been well planned for it to be carried out so well"

My statements about the Claremont Serial Killer are not presumptions. It is very unlikely that the CSK was a bumbling meth addict when he abducted and murdered Sarah Spiers, Jane Rimmer, and Ciara Glennon.

In 2007? when the blitz attack theory was just getting established and the old POI's were being gradually ruled out?

All those things like 'Planning' what to do with the victim in his car, how he would restrain them are just standard things serial killers would automatically plan in their minds... Its not exciting, its just procedure for a serial killer, of course he will think about a dump site, or maybe visit it, fantasize about it he is a serial killer and is not planning on being caught after his first kill.

And they are suggesting Blitz attack so the whole theory about planning 'how' he got the girls in the car, well ask the Karrakatta victim, bound with rope/cable, gagged and thrown in the back of a VAN which sped around the corner before dumping her and performing his 'meticulously planned' rape which costed him his first victim, and almost being caught before he had even started this murder spree.

The Police were looking for Taxi's and Pretend Police cars, they were NOT looking for Vans and Station wagons (the ones that blended into the general populas), and especially not pouring the same sort of resources into the Van theory as they could of, thus the CSK could just continue on his merry way knowing that all those Taxi drivers were not him.

The whole investigation was a shambles and we are now at a point with very little evidence, an extremely lucky killer who had managed to allude Police because they suspected such a 'meticulously planned' killer to be on the lose and not your average meth induced cemetary rapist murderous loon!

 

[Sutton]

...Now they are analysing trace elements of chord or cable that may have been left deep into the skin of both Ciara Glennon and the rape victim and they know they can link the two cases because even though the CSK might have changed cars, he kept the same chord, or cable for these abductions...

RSBM. Is this your opinion? It is stated as fact. Please make it clear if it's based on a rumor or its a just a possible theory or cite the source.

 

[elastic]

...Now they are analysing trace elements of chord or cable that may have been left deep into the skin of both Ciara Glennon and the rape victim and they know they can link the two cases because even though the CSK might have changed cars, he kept the same chord, or cable for these abductions...

RSBM. Is this your opinion? It is stated as fact. Please make it clear if it's based on a rumor or its a just a possible theory or cite the source.

Definitely opinion. I was replying to an opinion with an opinion.. Not Fact...

Given what we have learned so far through media reports I wouldn't be surprised if the chord or cable is part of the forensic link

 

[Sutton]

...The whole investigation was a shambles and we are now at a point with very little evidence, an extremely lucky killer who had managed to allude Police because they suspected such a 'meticulously planned' killer to be on the lose and not your average meth induced cemetary rapist murderous loon!

RSBM. I appreciate every poster who takes the time to post respectfully and move this case forward, regardless of how our theories may differ.

IMO, the CSK was not using meth. If he was, there would have been lots of sexual abuse, and uncontrolled rage. It would be a sloppy mess, and there would have been many other failed attempts.

There has been lots of discussion amongst profilers regarding organized vs. disorganized, and many have dismissed this type of classification. Regardless, I think the killer was skilled and efficient. He made very few mistakes. He let the Karrakatta victim go. Maybe he wasn't ready to kill yet.

 

[Bartholemeus]

I'm also not buying the meth theory. Ice was in it's infancy back then too. I first learned of it in 1996 whilst sitting on a train going home from work and 2 guys were blatantly talking about can't waiting to have ice. I'd never heard of it before but knew they were talking about drugs. These guys didn't look like druggies either and it was if they were talking about because they knew no one knew what it was. Both were also going home from work. I didn't come across it again until maybe 2003 and immediately recalled the incident on the train 7 or so years earlier.

So maybe it could have been speed or base - far less destructive. But this guy wouldn't have been a raging addict.

 

[elastic]

I'm also not buying the meth theory. Ice was in it's infancy back then too. I first learned of it in 1996 whilst sitting on a train going home from work and 2 guys were blatantly talking about can't waiting to have ice. I'd never heard of it before but knew they were talking about drugs. These guys didn't look like druggies either and it was if they were talking about because they knew no one knew what it was. Both were also going home from work. I didn't come across it again until maybe 2003 and immediately recalled the incident on the train 7 or so years earlier.

So maybe it could have been speed or base - far less destructive. But this guy wouldn't have been a raging addict.

Yeah the Meth thing was just speculative anyways and doesn't have any real basis other than the Killer being out all night... It cannot be ruled out one way or the other but doesn't have a lot of basis... his sex frenzied rape on the Karrakatta victim is why I suspect he attempted to rape her prior to killing her whilst possibly under the influence of Meth. Also Morey has links to dealing Meth so it was just thrown out there as a possibility given the nature of the attack.

Most of the other things are pretty much in line with the information we have received.

The debate between Organised and Dis-organised is totally irrelevant, on his first ever known abduction the victim escaped from a blitz attack. Sloppy, the killer can be as meticulous as he wants and refine himself into a killing machine, but he was sloppy and stuffed up, hardly the sign of a calculated organised attacker, whether he prepared better for his next few kills and decided it was too high risk to rape the victim and bypass'ed this and went straight for the kill is another matter.. I could hardly assume that because the Police never caught the guy when they weren't even focused on the other incidents happening around Claremont during the CSK years, that automatically makes the CSK a 'sophisticated meticulously organised' serial killer. I would be even more skeptical if any expert from WA tried to proclaim he was based on the limited information we had at the time..

Based on what we know now, he waited in the bushes in a secluded area (Typical of rapists) and waited for an innocent victim leaving a night club by themselves to bungle into the back of his car/van. That would be a standard methodology of abducting whether you are highly organised, or a bumbling lunatic... There is no way you can assume he was calculated and organised based on his way of abducting his victims. Most idiotic criminals would actually use the blitz attack car way of abducting, its the most common form of abducting that has ever occurred anywhere in the world... The fact he used a VAN just hits the stereotype even more that he is no different to any other loon that has abducted in this way.

Under the Taxi theory the CSK seemed highly skilled and organised. Under the Blitz theory he is incredibly lucky the Police bungled the investigation, lead themselves down the wrong path with the wrong focus on the POI's and vehicles, allowing our killer ample time to change his tactics and possibly change his cars/weapons etc before he was ever going to be suspected for any of the offenses. The fact they never caught on to him until 2006-2008 means that he had 10 years to not only hide all his evidence, to destroy any remaining evidence before the CSK even became a POI.

The killer has been lucky through very poor Police work (Despite an FBI agent telling them where to look), and 'time', because they focused on one of the now ruled out former POI's. Which gave the recent POI 10 years to hide everything before they started looking his way.

 

[elastic]

I wonder if the CSK bungled his victims into the VAN using a rope/ chord or cable, choked them unconscious, and then drove them to a secluded area, raped them, and knowing that he let one victim escape, decided to kill the 3 victims so they couldn't reveal his face by stabbing them repeatedly near the dump spot, before moving them to his final dump location. The nature of the stab wounds suggests someone familiar with a knife (thats if the foreign reports are accurate), Abattoir worker anyone?

Also they have not ruled out a sexual assault on the CSK victims, this has been an ongoing debate, maybe he didn't bypass rape and raped these victims prior to his stabbing frenzy.

 

[Bartholemeus]

The debate between Organised and Dis-organised is totally irrelevant, on his first ever known abduction the victim escaped from a blitz attack. Sloppy, the killer can be as meticulous as he wants and refine himself into a killing machine, but he was sloppy and stuffed up, hardly the sign of a calculated organised attacker, whether he prepared better for his next few kills and decided it was too high risk to rape the victim and bypass'ed this and went straight for the kill is another matter..

Even the smartest academics finish university and then go out into the real world and make seemingly rookie mistakes.

He also probably never planned killing until after the Karrakatta attack (assuming it's the same person of which I'm sceptical). So he did everything he planned to do which takes planning and cunning.

Serial killers typically go through an evolution. Think of people who do organised crime and mafia and gang-banging. Many make rookie mistakes early and are killed. To get to the top you have to survive all this. It's similar for SK's. Many don't survive the initial forays and are apprehended by police. I suspect a large percentage of SK's get caught on their first hit out because they just want to kill someone and haven't matured and experienced enough to realise the meticulous planning needed.

Our guy is top of the tree when it comes to serial killing. He's pretty damned good.

 

[Bartholemeus]

I wonder if the CSK bungled his victims into the VAN using a rope/ chord or cable, choked them unconscious, and then drove them to a secluded area, raped them, and knowing that he let one victim escape, decided to kill the 3 victims so they couldn't reveal his face by stabbing them repeatedly near the dump spot, before moving them to his final dump location. The nature of the stab wounds suggests someone familiar with a knife (thats if the foreign reports are accurate), Abattoir worker anyone?

Also they have not ruled out a sexual assault on the CSK victims, this has been an ongoing debate, maybe he didn't bypass rape and raped these victims prior to his stabbing frenzy.

What? What makes you think there are multiple stab wounds? I think you'll find that the girls were not mutilated or repeatedly stabbed.

 

[papertrail]

vehicle was described as A LIGHT COLOURED PANEL VAN

attachment on the right is from an article in West Australian Saturday edition March 22 1997

 

[Bartholemeus]

That's a match to MM. Doesn't match LW nor Judoman.

 

[Parkie]

Well now the DNA link is out in the media. No wonder why I was told no popular poi`s were serious suspects. All were just Poi`s. Also I def knew SMM was def not a csk victim. That has been well known by all for ages.

 

[Bartholemeus]

I think people are conveniently believing there's a DNA link. If you analyse what has been said along with the history of the case you should come to the conclusion that a DNA link is unlikely.

Most articles say "forensic link". One journo used the work DNA on the click bait but when you read her story it reverts to "forensic link". This is standard journalism (using click bait) and you can bet if there was a DNA link then the term DNA would have appeared in the actual story.

We also know through simple deduction that LE did not have the CSK's DNA for at least the first 10 years of the investigation - otherwise they wouldn't have investigated the main POI's for long periods, rather they'd just compare their DNA and either rule them in or out.

Could have they got a DNA reading over the last 6 years? Possible. The media say this link was made 6 years ago. That's a long time to have the killers DNA and not have some serious public operations (such as CIA, leaking POI details to the press etc).

 

[elastic]

What? What makes you think there are multiple stab wounds? I think you'll find that the girls were not mutilated or repeatedly stabbed.

Good pickup, I had another look through the original articles and couldnt find any reference to stab wounds on any CSK victim... Not sure where I got the misinformation from.. What did catch my eye was the following:

The body of one of these, Ms Jane Rimmer (23), was found last August. She had been strangled

Strangled from the report http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irishwoman-s-death-linked-to-australian-serial-killer-1.58756

Now I wish I didn't read that because it just reinforced Morey as the suspect. He disarmed using rope by strangulation. The only known witness

"He calmly pulled his car over to the side of the road and he already had rope wrapped around his hand when he turned his car off."Morey tried to place the rope over the woman's neck but she put her back against the passenger door and repeatedly kicked him.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/11461194/violent-attacker-is-suspect-in-murders/


Also might explain why he is so effective at killing

"He told me that he was in the SAS... that's where he was taught to kill people," she said. "He told me that he has killed before."

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/15606722/mcmahon-suspect-said-he-had-killed-before/

So Jane Rimmer was strangled. Morey uses strangulation to kill his victims. Morey is also SAS Trained and would be a brutal effective killing machine...

Now lets have a look at this article:

Police officers have now spoken out to allege the investigations were bungled, with potential suspects allowed to walk and key pieces of evidence disregarded.
A terrifying encounter with a sinister man in a car equipped with 'abduction tools' has been pinpointed as a potential moment the police allowed a prime suspect to walk away without inquiry, as they were too focused on a man they believed to be the killer.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...uspect-walk-free-focused-tying-man-crime.html


Then this comment

Mr Bayens recalls the chilling night he pulled over a man during an undercover operation in Highgate in 2002 - 11 kilometres away from Claremont.

Then this one confirming high gate was Morey's kill spot

The court also heard that less than nine months prior to the attack a friend and fellow sex worker of the woman disappeared from the same Highgate area Morey's victim was picked up from.

Then the Investigation completly changed following Morey's conviction. Which was an enormous conviction for a prostitutes word against Moreys word. 13 years. He didnt actually rape anyone, or follow through with the kill, yet he went away for longer than most one punch killers, longer than most serial rapists, and was convicted on very little evidence.

So in 2006 following Morey's conviction they then announce they have TWO totally new POI's. Ofcourse they have TWO, they dont want to be seen as having tunnel vision after Caporns major stuff up with the CSK. There was always going to be two major suspects.

Now we hear little of Judoman, could he be Mystery Man and the police pretty much know he is myster man, but at the same time dont really care because they dont beleive the evidence against him is as compelling as the high gate suspect. They still need two POI's to satisfy that they dont have tunnel vision.

So Judoman was a martial arts expert, could be Mystery man, and because of his ego, wants to stay part of the CSK investigation because he loves the attention. This would explain why Mystery man was never found, and why they had the video of MM during the same documentary of Judoman. Maybe the wanted the public to send in as much information as they could on the guy so they could look at ruling their other major suspect out whilst they build the DNA case against the highgate POI.

It would explain why after 08 very little has ever been stated or said about the martial arts expert, but recently in a documentary all the focus was on Con Bayens and his suspect. ALL THE FOCUS NOW IS ON THE HIGH GATE SUSPECT. Judoman is there to keep the investigation honest, and could be MM who had nothing to do with the kills, but would explain why he knew a few of the girls, enough to have a brief conversation outside the night club with one of the victims and move on.

So the media has ruled out ALL FORMER POI's

So we have Judoman which no one has cared for since 2008 and now the one everyone has a target on, highgate man, possibly Morey, the SAS killer who used the same method to kill as reported in the Irish Times for Jane Rimmer when he tried to strangle his prostitute.

No one has been able to definitively ruled Morey out ever, not in any news article, its almost like their is a gag order over announcing whether he is involved with the CSK.

 

[elastic]

Well now the DNA link is out in the media. No wonder why I was told no popular poi`s were serious suspects. All were just Poi`s. Also I def knew SMM was def not a csk victim. That has been well known by all for ages.

Mate, why dont you just leave the thread with your tail between your legs.

You dont know who killed SMM. There is no way you could know for certain, and ruling out the CSK based on nothingness is erroneous in every conceivable way. Infact you have been trying to deflect from Morey and especially Sarah McMahon from the beginning with out stating any facts at all. Nothing. Your theories are not compelling... and every article suggests that High gate man is now the main POI.

There is also no DNA link, there is FORENSIC evidence. And all reports so far suggest the rope/cable is the FORENSIC evidence.

So its more than likely the SAME rope/cable was used for BOTH abductions, thus if they can catch Karrkatta rapist, then they can now link it to the CSK kill, which then means they can nail the guy for the other two CSK kills without having any direct evidence. Its their bridge to bring down CSK using a known blitz attack that they now know are linked.

Anyways you offer nothing but wrong incorrect misinformation.