closing argument poll: how did the prosecution do?

[KarmicLaw]

I inevitably compare every prosecutor to Vince Bugliosi, which is an admittedly high bar. Therefore, I thought it was great, but could have been even more powerful. I think Juan is an amazing prosecutor and I think he had everything he needed for a murder one conviction. Nurmi was horrible in comparison. At the end of the day,the person who did the best job of prosecuting was the lying murderer herself.

 

[shadedwillows]

I'll try.... and to be brief as possible.

A large majority of the people on this forum started the trial having already decided a guilty as charged verdict. So for those people, Martinez closing spoke to their convictions.

The Jury did not go into the case the same way - nor should they.

Just prior to the close - the jury were given specific instructions on how to decide the case (based on facts and evidence and witness testimony).

From that perspective - here are the very weak points I saw in Martinez close:

1. The Forensic facts of this case are beyond strong, beyond compelling AGAINST self defense. ... AND

2. The human factors are different (they usually are). While you have to do some pretty amazing acrobatics to stretch in a "self defence" theory - they will compel some to sympathize with, even identify with the defendant. ...SO

3. Martinez spent too much of the close focused on character assassination and mocking the defendant for what some might see as normal circumstance.

Ex:
How many women fell in love in their teens or were willing to toss their future away on some boy they believed in - only to find it wasn't going to work, or he was bad news or unfaithful? It's young heartbreak and teens can be really stupid about that sort of thing.

The Jury are largely in their 40's - so we can also assume that most of them have children in their late teens and early 20's (I have 3 teens at home).

If there is even one woman who went through something similar or a parent with a teen who went through something similar - the worst thing to do is to slam that type of behavior and mock Jodi for having that happen to her.

It's immaterial to the case.

4. Rather than going over the evidence - just the evidence - piecing it together - showing how it simply could not be self defense, and presenting ALL the circumstances that support pre-meditation, Martinez weaved a story that sounded more like venomous personal hatred for the defendant.

5. All it takes is for one juror to personally related to one of the human factors. (ie: "that" just happened to MY daughter, or, I once lost MY phone cord under the seat, ...etc). That juror will then be more likely to relate to the defendant, be personally affronted by Martinez - and it's a hung jury.


Mr Martinez may come across to some as a hero, passionate about justice - but to others he comes across as rigidly judgmental and lacking self-control.

There is every possibility that the jury will contain people representing both opinions on him.

I think he failed, completely, to present a balance close and to focus the jury on the facts.

If the Anthony Prosecution team had this case - I suspect it would have ended in March with a guilty verdict.

Thank you Katie for your well thought out and intelligent post.
It's refreshing to read another point of view.
Although we may disagree on some of the points you have pointed out; some of the opinions and thoughts that you've shared hadn't occurred to me.
Thanks again .

 

[shadedwillows]

The poll shows that four, (4) Websleuth members chose to vote, "It was not so good."

I may be incorrect in my presumption.
Perhaps those that did vote BBM in your above post would not be comfortable with the reception of their explanations?

Mr. Martinez is a human being, doing the job that he is well paid for.
He's a fine prosecutor indeed.
I believe that he did a fine job speaking for Travis.
Having said all of the above, I don't feel he's a hero, I don't feel that he is an extraordinary person.
He is a man, a human being. I don't see him as some sort of superhero.

I feel very uncomfortable writing my feelings and opinions especially since 99.9% of the members following this case would disagree.



IMO.

 

[Katie-L]

The prosecutors in the Anthony case did not put on as strong a case as Juan did, and Casey didn't testify.
I strongly disagree with you. My responses in red.Travis is the one who had his character assassinated by the defendant.

Please don't mis-characterize my response.

Someone asked if the person who voted "not so good" on Juan's closing would care to share their reasons for voting that way. So I did. That's all.

It's my opinion on his closing. That's all.

It was not written as, nor intended to be understood as a "rah-rah, boom-boom" for Jodi Arias. AND most definately NOT even remotely intended as a statement against Travis Alexander.

I'm sure that Mr Martinez did his job to the best of his ability. I simply didn't think his closing was good. It's only my opinion. If other's don't share that opinion - that's fine.

 

[IBsleuthin]

I may be incorrect in my presumption.
Perhaps those that did vote BBM in your above post would not be comfortable with the reception of their explanations?

Mr. Martinez is a human being, doing the job that he is well paid for.
He's a fine prosecutor indeed.
I believe that he did a fine job speaking for Travis.
Having said all of the above, I don't feel he's a hero, I don't feel that he is an extraordinary person.
He is a man, a human being. I don't see him as some sort of superhero.

I feel very uncomfortable writing my feelings and opinions especially since 99.9% of the members following this case would disagree.



IMO.

:seeya: I LIKE YOUR POST.

I will stand by you and support our expression of opinion because you have every single right to express you opinion!!


Looking back on this poll, I couldn't see ANYWHERE that rules were posted that said..."Agree with the majority or brace for the wrath." But it certainly does seem that way doesn't it?

DEMANDS TO REVEAL ONE'S OCCUPATION OR EDUCATION LEVEL by members whom disagree with your opinion can certainly be cause to incite or intimidate no matter how carefully or cleverly that member thinks they have written it. My 'real life' experience has been that whenever someone steps forward with these types of DEMANDS it's because they themselves are feeling inadequate and inferior.

(Some people just like to argue).


I'm with you 100% Juan is a human being trying his best to do a very difficult job and do it in front of the world through this media.

I'm sure if he were asked he'd be the first person to point out where he felt he could have been stronger in his wording.


Constructive criticism without name calling is an opportunity for improvement and change.

 

[thefragile7393]

I may be incorrect in my presumption.
Perhaps those that did vote BBM in your above post would not be comfortable with the reception of their explanations?

Mr. Martinez is a human being, doing the job that he is well paid for.
He's a fine prosecutor indeed.
I believe that he did a fine job speaking for Travis.
Having said all of the above, I don't feel he's a hero, I don't feel that he is an extraordinary person.
He is a man, a human being. I don't see him as some sort of superhero.

I feel very uncomfortable writing my feelings and opinions especially since 99.9% of the members following this case would disagree.



IMO.

I think it's because compared to the trashing that the DT has been doing, he looks like a hero. He is mortal though and imperfect, but anybody who stands for truth and fights passionately for something they believe is in a hero to me. But I agree with you too....he is a mortal man doing his job. He does not walk on water.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

 

[pip]

I think he did fine. Not great, but fine. I wish he would have pounded harder on her motive. The straw that broke the camels back. Cancun with another woman. Fatal attraction. I wish he would have set the jurors straight and pushed harder with the fact that she was not 'covert' in California for the reason of an alibi and that her only covert mission was in and out of Arizona.. she wanted to be tracked thru California. I wish he would have mentioned the possibility that she intentionally put the plate on upside down in hopes of being noticed by LE in Utah as another part of her alibi.
All in all, good. I was just hoping for a KABOOM! It lacked KABOOM and fireworks in substance, his demeanor does not make up for that missing element.
JMO
His heart is definitely in this case, no doubt there.

 

[IBsleuthin]

Please don't mis-characterize my response.

Someone asked if the person who voted "not so good" on Juan's closing would care to share their reasons for voting that way. So I did. That's all.

It's my opinion on his closing. That's all.

It was not written as, nor intended to be understood as a "rah-rah, boom-boom" for Jodi Arias. AND most definately NOT even remotely intended as a statement against Travis Alexander.

I'm sure that Mr Martinez did his job to the best of his ability. I simply didn't think his closing was good. It's only my opinion. If other's don't share that opinion - that's fine.

(I completely agree with your post here).


I've been on these crime forums for years. I was on another forum before I joined this one.

These forums are a TREASURE TROVE of information for learning about how people communicate with each other, the grouping together, the intimidating, the LACK OF SIMPLE COMPREHENSION of the post.

Over the years I have absolutely found it fascinating how some folks can read a post and just MISS THE POINT all together. It's very obvious with some of these people that they have their own personal agenda and will skim through your post and pick out one or two key words to jump on and twist around.

Certainly and most positively a student at the doctorate level could write VOLUMES just from observing the behavior on these types of boards.


When I read your post I got exactly that you were just expressing your opinion on Juan's closing. Simple as that.

My understanding is that is the purpose of these forums, so people CAN express their opinions.

I have been very clear that I don't think his closing was that great. Especially the first half. His closing argument started out with repeating the words over and over, "It's not her fault." Now, I understand what he was trying to get across, however; he was running the risk of getting that statement stuck in the heads of the jurors.

Anyone that doesn't believe this could happen simply needs to look back to the last song that got stuck in their mind.

I also thought Juan dropped the ball on his final rebuttal after Nurmi sat down.

The ENTIRE defense for 2 solid months has been based on SELF-DEFENSE. Yet here was the defense attorney, Nurmi standing up there for nearly his whole closing going on and on and on in DETAIL WITH PHOTOS about how vulnerable TRAVIS was in the shower, his body language, he was faced AWAY from JA, his arms were up and he was naked.

THAT is what Juan, (in my opinion) should have POUNDED ON when he came back. Exactly how could this be self defense when JA's own attorney is saying that Travis was vulnerable.

My opinion.

I'm an American born citizen and I have the right to express my own opinion.

 

[windridge]

Thank you Katie for your well thought out and intelligent post.
It's refreshing to read another point of view.
Although we may disagree on some of the points you have pointed out; some of the opinions and thoughts that you've shared hadn't occurred to me.
Thanks again .

I agree with number 3 completely

 

[LinasK]

?

DEMANDS TO REVEAL ONE'S OCCUPATION OR EDUCATION LEVEL by members whom disagree with your opinion can certainly be cause to incite or intimidate no matter how carefully or cleverly that member thinks they have written it. My 'real life' experience has been that whenever someone steps forward with these types of DEMANDS it's because they themselves are feeling inadequate and inferior.

(Some people just like to argue).




Constructive criticism without name calling is an opportunity for improvement and change.

Huh?? Where have you seen that??? Certainly not in my posts! If you find posts like that, the thing to do is hit the alert button and a moderator will take care of it.
Yes, everyone here has the right to their opinion, and I also have the right to disagree with someone's opinion that I do not share.

 

[Donatella]

I agree with number 3 completely

The problem with number 3 is that there were several "normal" circumstances (gas cans, charger, hair color,etc). Circumstantial cases require that the jury look at ALL of the circumstances that individually would be normal but collectively could indicate guilt.

 

[Linda7NJ]

So I'm one of those people who didnt get all that involved with the case. I did find Jody smug but I found Martinez very difficult to listen to. He was beyond overly aggressive and in my opinion made too many personal attacks. I only watched the trial off and on when I was bored. I caught one day of testimony where Travis is getting off on her sounding like a 12 year old girl having an orgasm. The Spider-Man underwear paired with his fantasies of raping her. His highly absuive texts and calls ..well I stopped giving a damn. I really think she may have prevented him from caring out these fantasies on children and women. I'm one of those jurors that wouldn't have given her the death penalty. Juan Martinez made a couple of very huge blunders. The first was trying to convince the jury that Cameron Diaz had to do with the underwear thing. He should have left that alone. He unknowingly brought that subject back up in a disastrous way, nobody believed that. Then when he said that Jody took advantage of a Mormon guy I gasped. He should have said look "Travis was a descipable person but he didnt deserve to die like this"

Thud.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Garlandy]

I am watching Mr. Martinez give his closing remarks for the second time. I think he did a fantastic job. He was on point, told a story that was easy to follow, and kept my interest throughout. I think what I liked the most was how passionate Mr. Martinez came across in his closing .. in his quest to obtain justice. He is one of the good guys...trying to speak for a person that is not here any longer and who can't speak for himself due to being murdered.

And as the judge said the closing statements can't be used for evidence so keeping that in mind I think it is important that people can relate to the prosecution and be able to reflect and remember what he said in his closing. Because he spoke to the jury as if he was having a conversation with them I think they will remember his closing as opposed to the Defence Team, I couldn't even tell anyone what Mr. Nurmi said in his closing, it is just a big blur. I think Mr. Martinez did a terrific job reminding the jury why he thinks they should come back with murder in the first degree and he also did a great job basically tying important facts together.

 

[TorisMom003]

So I'm one of those people who didnt get all that involved with the case. I did find Jody smug but I found Martinez very difficult to listen to. He was beyond overly aggressive and in my opinion made too many personal attacks. I only watched the trial off and on when I was bored. I caught one day of testimony where Travis is getting off on her sounding like a 12 year old girl having an orgasm. The Spider-Man underwear paired with his fantasies of raping her. His highly absuive texts and calls ..well I stopped giving a damn. I really think she may have prevented him from caring out these fantasies on children and women. I'm one of those jurors that wouldn't have given her the death penalty. Juan Martinez made a couple of very huge blunders. The first was trying to convince the jury that Cameron Diaz had to do with the underwear thing. He should have left that alone. He unknowingly brought that subject back up in a disastrous way, nobody believed that. Then when he said that Jody took advantage of a Mormon guy I gasped. He should have said look "Travis was a descipable person but he didnt deserve to die like this"

BBM

I'm sorry but I'm not sure how someone who admits to have not watched nor followed the case/trial that closely at all can claim that Travis was a "despicable human being". Perhaps the best thing to do is to make oneself knowledgeable about the details of the entire case instead of jumping on the lies and fantasies of the defense team/killer. Perhaps one should also be aware of the fact that the defense team/killer tried to blackmail the state into agreeing to a plea deal........if the plea deal was denied then the defense team/killer admitted that they would sling as much mud on Travis Alexander as they possibly could AND THEY DID. Makes me glad that the jurors actually listened to the evidence presented at trial, asked questions of the witnesses and listened to the closing arguments. Otherwise if the jury was made up of folks that made their minds up WITHOUT listening to everything then we would have a hung jury/acquittal.


I actually voted that Juan was good but I wished that he had added a few more things. I wanted him to play the FULL recorded phone call so that the jury was reminded of Jodi's part in that tape. The edited version the defense played was sick, biased and completely wrong. I only hope the jury remembers or asks for the FULL tape so they can remember what role Jodi played in that.


MOO

 

[Chelly]

Some of us are changing our avatars during Verdict Watch to the Justice for Travis Blue Ribbon as a way to show our WS Solidarity for Travis and family. Hope others will join in so we will be a sea of Blue Ribbons for Travis by verdict day.
Thanks.

 

[tomato]

So I'm one of those people who didnt get all that involved with the case. I did find Jody smug but I found Martinez very difficult to listen to. He was beyond overly aggressive and in my opinion made too many personal attacks. I only watched the trial off and on when I was bored. I caught one day of testimony where Travis is getting off on her sounding like a 12 year old girl having an orgasm. The Spider-Man underwear paired with his fantasies of raping her. His highly absuive texts and calls ..well I stopped giving a damn. I really think she may have prevented him from caring out these fantasies on children and women. I'm one of those jurors that wouldn't have given her the death penalty. Juan Martinez made a couple of very huge blunders. The first was trying to convince the jury that Cameron Diaz had to do with the underwear thing. He should have left that alone. He unknowingly brought that subject back up in a disastrous way, nobody believed that. Then when he said that Jody took advantage of a Mormon guy I gasped. He should have said look "Travis was a descipable person but he didnt deserve to die like this"

Are you serious? I don't know what your profession is but I don't think any prosecutor in the world would possibly say something like that about the victim. Keep in mind that prosecutor is the last voice of the victim.

 

[ilovewings]

BBM

I'm sorry but I'm not sure how someone who admits to have not watched nor followed the case/trial that closely at all can claim that Travis was a "despicable human being". Perhaps the best thing to do is to make oneself knowledgeable about the details of the entire case instead of jumping on the lies and fantasies of the defense team/killer. Perhaps one should also be aware of the fact that the defense team/killer tried to blackmail the state into agreeing to a plea deal........if the plea deal was denied then the defense team/killer admitted that they would sling as much mud on Travis Alexander as they possibly could AND THEY DID. Makes me glad that the jurors actually listened to the evidence presented at trial, asked questions of the witnesses and listened to the closing arguments. Otherwise if the jury was made up of folks that made their minds up WITHOUT listening to everything then we would have a hung jury/acquittal.


I actually voted that Juan was good but I wished that he had added a few more things. I wanted him to play the FULL recorded phone call so that the jury was reminded of Jodi's part in that tape. The edited version the defense played was sick, biased and completely wrong. I only hope the jury remembers or asks for the FULL tape so they can remember what role Jodi played in that.


MOO

I had hoped that Juan would have played snippets of the two interrogations by Det Flores. The first one would remind the jury how easily she lies when she said " oh, i could never hurt travis; if I did i deserve the death penalty". and in the second interrogation she says in her oh so sweet little girl voice that ninjas came in and did it but spared her life. i wish he would have played the video with her head on Travis's lap showing that she was not his dirty little secret. I think his emphasis on her lying about the gas can was very big and in the end may serve to convict her of first degree because she out and out lied to the jury and she was caught. Juries hate to be lied to.

I would also have replayed the video from either 48 hours or inside edition where she says no jury will convict me and you can mark my words on that because i am innocent.

 

[TorisMom003]

I had hoped that Juan would have played snippets of the two interrogations by Det Flores. The first one would remind the jury how easily she lies when she said " oh, i could never hurt travis; if I did i deserve the death penalty". and in the second interrogation she says in her oh so sweet little girl voice that ninjas came in and did it but spared her life. i wish he would have played the video with her head on Travis's lap showing that she was not his dirty little secret. I think his emphasis on her lying about the gas can was very big and in the end may serve to convict her of first degree because she out and out lied to the jury and she was caught. Juries hate to be lied to.

I would also have replayed the video from either 48 hours or inside edition where she says no jury will convict me and you can mark my words on that because i am innocent.

Agree on all of your points above. I thought the quote was "If I had hurt Travis, if I had killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty!". Although it is entirely possible that she said both quotes and I only remember the one that I mentioned.

 

[Steel86]

I have to say that what resonated with me in Juan's closing was when he stated how that after murdering Travis three times, that she still WILL NOT let him rest in peace. And how completely hateful one has to be to say these things without any proof. No...his statements don't tie in any evidence or speak to premeditation, but personally I thought it was powerful.

 

[katiecoolady]

*****
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