CLUES: how to find Susan

[karen7868]

Did anyone say he smelled like smoke when he returned that Monday evening?

Also, I still can't shake the feeling he also used an axe or hatchet to kill her. Did anyone notice the picture they showed on Dateline of him and Susan and he is posing with an axe?

Is it possible he waited until late at night in order to dump the body in a dumpster?

I thought Josh worked from home, but according to the timeline, he had a job because he would make Susan ride her bike to work and he would take the van.

So, assuming he had a job outside of the home, did they have a dumpster at the site of his employer? Would he have known the scheduled dumpster pick-up day so that is why he picked this particular night?

He could have drove the boys around telling them they were going camping and made an excuse of stopping for gas and dump the body at that time?

Since it may have been impossible to dig a hole (frozen, hard ground) and it sounds like it would be a lot of work to burn the body? And Josh never seemed to flinch when searchers were searching the various camp areas.

Praying that they do find Susan.

 

[GrainneDhu]

How do you keep two small children content in a vehicle on a road trip- especially when you're alone?(

SBM

Children's Benedryl.

 

[dovebar]

I agree that SP's house and its occupants may yet have more answers to contribute.

One of the reasons I think SP knew that this was coming, or even assisted with the idea, is that it eliminates witnesses to his involvement. If we believe the divorce documents about SP's poor treatment of JP, and we include the years he sexually harrassed his wife, and "turned" JP against his wife, it's entirely in keeping with SP's personality to have manipulated this. It protects his remaining secrets. That house seems like the center of a lot of things. It was his home base for his voyeurism, the place where he took in his non-functional children and grandchildren, into an environment that included naked adults, nooses, obscene pictures of women in the open. I hope they can get any search warrant they need to take it apart.

 

[heidisams]

2 thoughts... First, as far as his hands having wind burn, something that keeps popping up on sites about wind burn is high elevation. Also, I think the condition of his hands is more likely wind burn rather than a chemical burn, or such, because the burn was on the top of his hand, nothing mentioned about the palms. I would assume something along the lines of chemicals or other burns would be noticeable on both sides, not just the top. So, perhaps elevation could be a factor.
Second, and I won't give my whole theory here, but in a nut shell.... I've always thought sp was involved. I have mentioned before my thoughts about father and son possibly drugging her, maybe for sp's sexual pleasures. A lot of this thinking comes from the words in his songs and how familiar he seems with her, iykwim (could also be from his fantasies, though). I know this may be way out there, but I haven't been able to get it out of my head.... The words to the song "Light of Seattle" on SteveChantrey.com... He talks about Pugent Sound in it.... We know many of his songs were inspired by Susan. He even titles his album Light of Seattle. I haven't figured out when this song was written, but if it was post Susan's disappearance then I wonder about Pugent Sound, specifically surrounding Seattle, per the song. It's a huge area, but it is one of those things that's been bugging me, and I figured it would continue to do so until I put it out there.

eta... Supposing it was wind burn, common causes being wind, sun, elevation, hands exposed to cold temps for extended period, etc. would suggest several possibilities.
But, most consistent factor mentioned is wind and sun, so that would lead one to think he did something during the day Monday. He may have put her somewhere close to where they slept and then made his preparations for her during the day Monday and transferred her there. Which also makes me think he did more than just dump here somewhere quick. I think he spent some time on it due to the conditions of his hands. Wind also needs to be considered... was it windy Monday? If not, was he in fact, at a high elevation?

 

[Dewey2Me1MoThyme]

GrainneDhu's post above reminded me (again very graphic) of a case where the husband and his lover disposed of his wife's body by putting her in a large drum, not only pouring accelerant on her, but also ekkkk filled all her orfices with bearing grease. The flames burnt the body and most of the bones they found to a large degree. The time of death / disposal was found out by examining a tree that was next to the burn site.

 

[karen7868]

GrainneDhu's post above reminded me (again very graphic) of a case where the husband and his lover disposed of his wife's body by putting her in a large drum, not only pouring accelerant on her, but also ekkkk filled all her orfices with bearing grease. The flames burnt the body and most of the bones they found to a large degree. The time of death / disposal was found out by examining a tree that was next to the burn site.

I saw that! I think it was on forensic files.

 

[GrainneDhu]

eta... Supposing it was wind burn, common causes being wind, sun, elevation, hands exposed to cold temps for extended period, etc. would suggest several possibilities.
But, most consistent factor mentioned is wind and sun, so that would lead one to think he did something during the day Monday. He may have put her somewhere close to where they slept and then made his preparations for her during the day Monday and transferred her there. Which also makes me think he did more than just dump here somewhere quick. I think he spent some time on it due to the conditions of his hands. Wind also needs to be considered... was it windy Monday? If not, was he in fact, at a high elevation?

SBM

Another factor that can lead to increased windburn is having wet hands outdoors in cold, windy conditions. The palms and undersides of the fingers tend to be more protected because people dry them better or keep the hands curled up to keep them warm until they dry.

Plain water will do it. Antibacterial hand sanitizer will do it even faster.

So I'm thinking, a guy known to be phobic about germs would be highly likely to be either washing his hands frequently or using antibacterial hand sanitizer frequently, even outdoors, if he were doing something that involved touching or handling something he thought might be, well, germ-y.

Like a corpse.

 

[GrainneDhu]

GrainneDhu's post above reminded me (again very graphic) of a case where the husband and his lover disposed of his wife's body by putting her in a large drum, not only pouring accelerant on her, but also ekkkk filled all her orfices with bearing grease. The flames burnt the body and most of the bones they found to a large degree. The time of death / disposal was found out by examining a tree that was next to the burn site.

The drum creates a chimney effect and raises the temperature of whatever is being burned.

I doubt Josh Powell had any way of transporting a metal 55 gallon drum that wouldn't be too obvious. It could be done in a mini-van but it would show and seem too memorable. Did he have access to any site that had a pre-existing burn barrel, though?

I've always assumed that the shrink plastic, tarps, etc, were necessary for a guy who was phobic about germs, etc. Particularly if she had been dead long enough for her body to grow cold before he had to handle it again since it is pretty common for people to have different reactions to handling the body of someone who just died and is still warm than they have to handling the body of someone who has been dead long enough for the body to grow cold.

 

[Jacie Estes]

The drum creates a chimney effect and raises the temperature of whatever is being burned.

I doubt Josh Powell had any way of transporting a metal 55 gallon drum that wouldn't be too obvious. It could be done in a mini-van but it would show and seem too memorable. Did he have access to any site that had a pre-existing burn barrel, though?

I've always assumed that the shrink plastic, tarps, etc, were necessary for a guy who was phobic about germs, etc. Particularly if she had been dead long enough for her body to grow cold before he had to handle it again since it is pretty common for people to have different reactions to handling the body of someone who just died and is still warm than they have to handling the body of someone who has been dead long enough for the body to grow cold.

In some campgrounds and rest areas there are metal drums used as garbage cans.

We still need to know where steve powell was that night; I can see him doing a Norman Bates thing.

 

[cluciano63]

48 Hours last night was about a killer in Canada who wrote out his whole plan and the actual carrying out of it in a journal/script and it turned out to be exactly what had happened, i.e. how he planned and killed one man, and how another one got away. So it is very possible that if JP wrote or said anything in passing, it could be what actually happened. JMO

 

[heidisams]

SBM

Another factor that can lead to increased windburn is having wet hands outdoors in cold, windy conditions. The palms and undersides of the fingers tend to be more protected because people dry them better or keep the hands curled up to keep them warm until they dry.

Plain water will do it. Antibacterial hand sanitizer will do it even faster.

So I'm thinking, a guy known to be phobic about germs would be highly likely to be either washing his hands frequently or using antibacterial hand sanitizer frequently, even outdoors, if he were doing something that involved touching or handling something he thought might be, well, germ-y.

Like a corpse.

Excessive use of antibacterial hand sanitizer will definitely cause dry skin, but in most cases it doesn't get to the point of burning your skin, because it clears up so quickly with moisturisers. If it was caused by sanitizer, after the fact, that would mean jp waited to apply the lotion until it got pretty advanced. It's definitely possible. I just think the facts of the case, the known conditions, and the timeframe lean toward good old fashion wind burn.
And wind burn is most commonly caused due to the fact that the sun and wind remove the top layer of oils and the skin is raw, exposed to the elements for a prolonged period.... The palms are oily, and often shielded, but, my point about the palms not being affected vs the top of the hands was in relation to whether chemicals caused jp's hands to appear that way.

jmo

 

[karen7868]

48 Hours last night was about a killer in Canada who wrote out his whole plan and the actual carrying out of it in a journal/script and it turned out to be exactly what had happened, i.e. how he planned and killed one man, and how another one got away. So it is very possible that if JP wrote or said anything in passing, it could be what actually happened. JMO

I agree. I am thinking he stabbed Susan because his neighbor said that JP made the comment "it's not like I stabbed her". I think he said this on that Monday night after they had taken his van to search it.

I could be wrong about the time, but I do know that is what he said.

And now that we now about the hatchet, I really do think he used this on Susan too. Same MO.

 

[IWannaKnow]

JP showed a proclivity for sharp objects. He threatened his mother with a knife and used a hatchet on his children. It isn't a stretch for me to imagine him cutting her up, especially if he needed to carry her to his ultimate disposal site, which might be some elevated area where he got the alleged windburn.

I hadn't heard that the spot on the rug was red. That adds another aspect, however if it were blood from her vomit I would imagine they still would have arrested JP that Monday:
BBM
http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Arsenic-Poisoning.htm

Features of acute arsenic poisoning

Overview of acute poisoning features

Symptoms usually start within 30 minutes to 2 hours. Acute arsenic ingestion is typically followed by a severe gastroenteritis, garlic odour and hypersalivation. There is a characteristic sequence of multi-organ failure, with: neurological symptoms (within hours) and cardiac features, succeeded by adult respiratory distress syndrome and renal/liver dysfunction. Marrow suppression develops after a few days to weeks in survivors, as does alopecia and an ascending motor neuropathy.

Details of acute poisoning features

Garlic odour - often present in breath and body tissues.

Gastrointestinal (GI): Hypersalivation, abdominal pain, vomiting, diarrhoea leading to hypovolaemic shock. Trivalent arsenic is corrosive - may cause oral burns, dysphagia and GI bleeding.

Cardiovascular: Myocardial depression. Dehydration, hypovolaemia or shock. ECG changes including ST segment changes, prolonged QT interval, ventricular tachycardia, torsades de pointes and ventricular fibrillation. Gangrene of extremities.

Respiratory: Pulmonary oedema, adult respiratory distress syndrome and acute respiratory failure. Inhaled arsenic causes irritation, bronchospasm and pulmonary oedema.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenic_poisoning"]Arsenic poisoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Signs and symptoms

Symptoms of arsenic poisoning begin with headaches, confusion, severe diarrhea, and drowsiness. As the poisoning develops, convulsions and changes in fingernail pigmentation called leukonychia may occur. When the poisoning becomes acute, symptoms may include diarrhea, vomiting, blood in the urine, cramping muscles, hair loss, stomach pain, and more convulsions. The organs of the body that are usually affected by arsenic poisoning are the lungs, skin, kidneys, and liver. The final result of arsenic poisoning is coma to death.[citation needed]

I would imagine all those things were tested and the carpet came up negative for them. Please tell me that is true. lease: However I'm getting that she wouldn't have died immediately with arsenic poisoning. I hope he didn't plan it that way because he wanted her to be able to walk still but not be in her right mind. Additionally, if he did poison her, SP would only have been there as an assistant. I had a brief thought that he took her somewhere still alive and was holding her but I really don't believe that and poison would totally ruin that plan.

I agree with Hedisams - elevation and cold wind is what was wrong with his hands. Question is which direction??

I'm really not questioning these things just to be gruesome. If Susan were able to still walk AT ALL I think that would really change where JP left her...

Dec 6, 2009 SLC weather:
http://www.wunderground.com/history...tml?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

Van confiscated by LE on 6th. No mention of his hands and they look fine in videos of him in the van FWIW.

Dec 7, 2009 weather:
http://www.wunderground.com/history...tml?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

Dec 8, 2009:
http://www.wunderground.com/history...tml?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

Dec 9, 2009:
http://www.wunderground.com/history...tml?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

JP came home the morning of the 9th (???) in the rental car with 'very red hands'.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCXDpQEfZm8&feature=player_embedded"]Josh Powell Full Interview With 2News Utah News, KUTV, 2News, Utah Community.flv - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8udgNVodBQ"]Susan Powell. UTAH. Missing Mom. Check Your Memory. - YouTube[/ame]

 

[IWannaKnow]

Any idea whether Carr Forks area was searched?

http://www.fishingworks.com/lakes/utah/tooele/bingham-canyon/anaconda-reservoir/

http://www.utahrails.net/mining/anaconda.php

http://www.epa.gov/region8/superfund/ut/intrntnlsmelt/index.html

 

[IWannaKnow]

That theory, which was brainstormed elsewhere, was that there was no definite known time that he left the house that night and that he could very well have put her in a wooded area within a +/-100 mile radius. Remember the boys were in the van and the weather was inclement that night. At that time he did not know LE would be at his house early the next morning and thought he had all the time in the world to dispose of her. LE found the wet spot and the fans, jp didn't think the fans would be found; he thought that he would come home later in the day and 'report' Susan missing when she didn't come home from work. He stayed away from the house to bolster the 'camping' theory. Coming back and finding LE at the house sped things up for him; as soon as he was able he rented the car and went back to the site he was at that night to cover his tracks. He now has to worry about forensics; he didn't know whether LE was tailing him in the rental or not and if he would be stopped. He could have driven in circles just to see if he was being followed and then gone to dispose of her. If she was stashed in any part of the Oquirrhs/Uintahs/Wasatch Mountains, by dragging her to a drop off area he never had to put her in the rental. There are some areas of the mountains, readliy accessible to the road, with steep drops. One variable is that the Middle Canyon Rd on the Tooele side of the Oquirrhs is closed from the end of fall until the spring because of treacherous snow conditions; he could have walked in there and found hiding places.

I do not believe the 'camping trip' story.

I see from Google that that would be treacherous in winter and makes sense it would be closed. What about Anaconda Rd????? That looks like a GREAT spot to me. Road in, sheltered on both sides, buildings down the road.....and not far from Bingham Canyon. Good elevation on both sides, parts would be a great wind tunnel.

[ame="http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Anaconda+Road,+Tooele,+UT&hl=en&ll=40.53996,-112.228775&spn=0.037506,0.084543&sll=40.530241,-112.194099&sspn=0.075022,0.169086&oq=ana+Road,+Tooele,+UT&hnear=Anaconda+Rd,+Tooele,+Utah+84074&t=h&z=14"]Anaconda Road, Tooele, UT - Google Maps[/ame]

Added to the fact that it is on the west side of the city ("just driving around West Valley City"....close to the truth possibly), it is on the way to Simpson Springs Campground so if seen on the road he has an alibi and it is a mine and it has been abandoned for many years.....

http://www.geomineinfo.com/Complimentary Downloads/Bingham Canyon.pdf

Additionally of note: seemingly this area is contaminated with lead and arsenic from the mining operations and there are warnings about this posted. Wonder if that is how JP could have gotten the idea to use arsenic (IF he did)?
http://www.tooelehealth.org/A_Assets/Images/Environmental_Health/Intermountain_Smelting.pdf

 

[Jacie Estes]

I see from Google that that would be treacherous in winter and makes sense it would be closed. What about Anaconda Rd????? That looks like a GREAT spot to me. Road in, sheltered on both sides, buildings down the road.....and not far from Bingham Canyon. Good elevation on both sides, parts would be a great wind tunnel.

Anaconda Road, Tooele, UT - Google Maps

Added to the fact that it is on the west side of the city ("just driving around West Valley City"....close to the truth possibly), it is on the way to Simpson Springs Campground so if seen on the road he has an alibi and it is a mine and it has been abandoned for many years.....

http://www.geomineinfo.com/Complimentary Downloads/Bingham Canyon.pdf

Additionally of note: seemingly this area is contaminated with lead and arsenic from the mining operations and there are warnings about this posted. Wonder if that is how JP could have gotten the idea to use arsenic (IF he did)?
http://www.tooelehealth.org/A_Assets/Images/Environmental_Health/Intermountain_Smelting.pdf

There are houses on that street where it intersects with Dubray and some of the houses have LE living there; I have many times seen LE cars from 2 different jursdictions in 2 different driveways on that road. Also, even though I don't remember specifically if it is the case on that street, further up mountain, but mining companies have either security cameras or actual little buildings with security in them. I agree with you that it's a good location to drop a body and then go back and rehde it when you come home and find LE at your house. It does get very windy there and you get lake effect snows [Great Salt Lake] when the storm is from N or NW direction.
Also, the water in GSL is salty, hence the name, when you camp on Antelope Island, in the center, dogs can't go in the water because of the salt. The water is corrosive but a body would float, not sink, unless it were weighed down.

 

[Sharai]

My macabre thoughts as well. Maybe her body was the "really big surprise."

 

[mamamia54]

What if he did poison her enough? Just enough like has been said in the above post. Just enough for her to have vomited at the house, they all did get into the van together with mom laying down in the rear of the van. Josh would have been just sick enough to do something like that to Susan and to those kids. Now then, what did he do with the two boys while he and mommy walked out into the desert, just leave them alone in the van? It may not have taken him long to leave her there, knowing that she would die in a day or so, then went back the day his hands were windburned. Interesting.

 

[IWannaKnow]

Ok, maybe this is a stretch, but what the heck. JP was into landscaping I've read. He would have to know that the lead and arsenic in the soil would be a hazard. Seemingly arsenic is a byproduct of copper smelting:

http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublications/eb1884/eb1884.pdf
page 4

http://www.kingcounty.gov/healthservices/health/ehs/toxic/arsenicfacts.aspx

Another potential source of arsenic in our environment is as a byproduct of copper smelting - arsenic occurs naturally in copper ores. During copper processing, arsenic passes from the solid state into the gaseous state and leaves the smelter through the smokestacks in the form of toxic dusts.

The smelter for Carr Forks was down that road if I'm reading this correctly. Anaconda/Smelter Rd. Could he have simply scooped up some soil from around that smelter and put it into Susan's pancakes, then driven off with the boys to keep them from helping her, or seeing her?

http://www.epa.gov/region8/superfund/ut/intrntnlsmelt/ROD.pdf
page 19 says there were superficial soil samples taken around the smelter with 1,375 mg/kg of arsenic in 1985.

http://www.tooelehealth.org/A_Assets/Images/Environmental_Health/Intermountain_Smelting.pdf

Then driven back out there and dumped her body that night? When he got home and the van got taken he had no choice but to dispose of her where he dumped her....

 

[Kimster]

Forgive me if I overlooked this already being posted, but it may be an important clue:

Robin Snyder claims she recently met with police. She claims she saw Josh Powell and his two sons the day after Susan went missing in 2009.

Back then, Snyder says she at a Sandy hotel where she was in charge of overseeing the free breakfast for guests.

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/sl...san-Powell-murder/OO8aMVY0gku92ZTkRNmtyA.cspx

[ame="http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Sandy,+Utah&daddr=West+Valley+City,+UT&hl=en&ll=40.627503,-111.910172&spn=0.139664,0.338173&sll=40.691613,-112.00105&sspn=0.069765,0.169086&geocode=FVQWawId9idV-SlJbk7B-GRShzGZVHEQy3riXw%3BFZ3nbAId5v9S-SmziDX63YxShzHlrHiNmXR79Q&oq=sandy+utah&mra=ls&t=h&z=12"]Sandy, UT to West Valley City, UT - Google Maps[/ame]