CO - James Holmes Trial - *Penalty Phase* #4 - LWOP

Status
Not open for further replies.
Hey guys... I hope some of you still check in from time to time & will see this post. My mom had to be hospitalized last week so my thoughts have been elsewhere...

Anyway, I'm going to really miss everyone who regularly posted on here--Zoey, Maisie, Lindy, MissHaley, Borndem, Hatfield, Chelly, Jazzed, Amster, Josie, WhiteOrchids (and anyone else I'm forgetting about--sorry!)

It has been SUCH A PLEASURE discussing this case with you all over the past few months. I kinda feel like something is missing in my life now... lol. Although, I must admit I'm not sorry I missed a large part of the verdict aftermath (I skimmed over most of it) because it didn't feel like the thread I'd come to know and love.

Prior to the verdict, I went back & forth in my mind about what I hoped the outcome would be. I didn't think I'd care either way, so long as he never experienced life outside of prison ever again, but I was ultimately shocked and a little disappointed when the verdict was read. I commend this jury for working as hard as they did on this case, and I totally respect their decision. And as much as I believe he deserved the DP, I'm not 100% sure I could live with being responsible for such a sentence myself... if I had been faced with it. Like many others said, Brady was able to reach the jurors when it really mattered. The things she said about mercy being more about us than him... how showing mercy doesn't mean he deserves it but showing mercy is how our society was built... how it relies on those of us who show mercy even to people who do horrible things... those words really had a powerful effect on me.

I think what just sucks so much about the LWOP sentence is knowing most of the victims wanted the DP (& THEY are who this trial was really about) and knowing that this guy will be able to watch TV, take classes, have a job, celebrate holidays, enjoy visits with his family and hug their necks... while 12 innocent people will never do any of those things ever again and 70 others will live with the horror and pain he caused for the rest of their lives... they'll carry out their days in a different type of prison... yet THEY didn't do anything to deserve their brutally cruel punishment.
 
Hey guys... I hope some of you still check in from time to time & will see this post. My mom had to be hospitalized last week so my thoughts have been elsewhere...

Anyway, I'm going to really miss everyone who regularly posted on here--Zoey, Maisie, Lindy, MissHaley, Borndem, Hatfield, Chelly, Jazzed, Amster, Josie, WhiteOrchids (and anyone else I'm forgetting about--sorry!)

It has been SUCH A PLEASURE discussing this case with you all over the past few months. I kinda feel like something is missing in my life now... lol. Although, I must admit I'm not sorry I missed a large part of the verdict aftermath (I skimmed over most of it) because it didn't feel like the thread I'd come to know and love.

Prior to the verdict, I went back & forth in my mind about what I hoped the outcome would be. I didn't think I'd care either way, so long as he never experienced life outside of prison ever again, but I was ultimately shocked and a little disappointed when the verdict was read. I commend this jury for working as hard as they did on this case, and I totally respect their decision. And as much as I believe he deserved the DP, I'm not 100% sure I could live with being responsible for such a sentence myself... if I had been faced with it. Like many others said, Brady was able to reach the jurors when it really mattered. The things she said about mercy being more about us than him... how showing mercy doesn't mean he deserves it but showing mercy is how our society was built... how it relies on those of us who show mercy even to people who do horrible things... those words really had a powerful effect on me.

I think what just sucks so much about the LWOP sentence is knowing most of the victims wanted the DP (& THEY are who this trial was really about) and knowing that this guy will be able to watch TV, take classes, have a job, celebrate holidays, enjoy visits with his family and hug their necks... while 12 innocent people will never do any of those things ever again and 70 others will live with the horror and pain he caused for the rest of their lives... they'll carry out their days in a different type of prison... yet THEY didn't do anything to deserve their brutally cruel punishment.

Awwe Not worry..All you have to do is look for us folks..and you will never be left behind ( unless you chose to be of course)..Let's face it..MI is something a sensitive as most everybody has experienced it..BUT to somehow excuse it ( especially given his level of functions) just boggles my mind...

Let's hope..wherever accused perps such horrendous crimes get to at least conviction..I always thought that was a lower bar..however given media savy defence/sometimes pros./LE types that love to spread unsubstantiated stuff has altered equations...

It's up to us types to look at evidence..look at credibility and not swallow rhetoric and lie spinning in order to come to any opinion!.....I look forward to discuss further cases down the road!!
 
Hey guys... I hope some of you still check in from time to time & will see this post. My mom had to be hospitalized last week so my thoughts have been elsewhere...

Anyway, I'm going to really miss everyone who regularly posted on here--Zoey, Maisie, Lindy, MissHaley, Borndem, Hatfield, Chelly, Jazzed, Amster, Josie, WhiteOrchids (and anyone else I'm forgetting about--sorry!)

It has been SUCH A PLEASURE discussing this case with you all over the past few months. I kinda feel like something is missing in my life now... lol. Although, I must admit I'm not sorry I missed a large part of the verdict aftermath (I skimmed over most of it) because it didn't feel like the thread I'd come to know and love.

Prior to the verdict, I went back & forth in my mind about what I hoped the outcome would be. I didn't think I'd care either way, so long as he never experienced life outside of prison ever again, but I was ultimately shocked and a little disappointed when the verdict was read. I commend this jury for working as hard as they did on this case, and I totally respect their decision. And as much as I believe he deserved the DP, I'm not 100% sure I could live with being responsible for such a sentence myself... if I had been faced with it. Like many others said, Brady was able to reach the jurors when it really mattered. The things she said about mercy being more about us than him... how showing mercy doesn't mean he deserves it but showing mercy is how our society was built... how it relies on those of us who show mercy even to people who do horrible things... those words really had a powerful effect on me.

I think what just sucks so much about the LWOP sentence is knowing most of the victims wanted the DP (& THEY are who this trial was really about) and knowing that this guy will be able to watch TV, take classes, have a job, celebrate holidays, enjoy visits with his family and hug their necks... while 12 innocent people will never do any of those things ever again and 70 others will live with the horror and pain he caused for the rest of their lives... they'll carry out their days in a different type of prison... yet THEY didn't do anything to deserve their brutally cruel punishment.

I SO agree with your Whole post.. You said it so much better than I could have!

So sorry about your Mom.. Sending out prayers and Hugs for both of you.

ETA~ I'll miss everyone here too.. It was a GREAT little group and I really enjoyed reading and chatting with everyone. Hopefully we will all run into each other again in the future here and carry on where we left off! = )
 
Cujenn thanks for saying what has been similarly rolling around in my head the past few days. I agree with you!

I'm having a bit of post trial "now what?" myself. I miss reading and chatting on here with everyone. :(

I hope your mom gets better soon.
 
Cujenn -- yes we were a good, tight little group -- thick & thin, we were there. As we have all said, at least he is in the slammer for life. Yes, he has already had many more days than his murder victims have had, but at least now he can't go & come as he wishes, he can't go ammo hunting again, he can't have a pizza or a beer when he wants one, and although he will have a "private" room, none of his time will ever be private again, even as he sits on the loo. Yes, he gets to live but it quickly will be same-ol' same-ol, and he will be afraid many of those days, I'm hoping. No one to trust, no one to really have fun with. Lotsa no's. No sleep late days. Always noisy. Every day, every day, every day. Enjoy it, fella. Have a grand ol' time.

Already missing our group, but we have made some good friends,:loveyou: and we will all meet again. I'm sure of it. :D:happydance:

I've said a prayer for your mom and you.
 
Hey guys... I hope some of you still check in from time to time & will see this post. My mom had to be hospitalized last week so my thoughts have been elsewhere...

Anyway, I'm going to really miss everyone who regularly posted on here--Zoey, Maisie, Lindy, MissHaley, Borndem, Hatfield, Chelly, Jazzed, Amster, Josie, WhiteOrchids (and anyone else I'm forgetting about--sorry!)

It has been SUCH A PLEASURE discussing this case with you all over the past few months. I kinda feel like something is missing in my life now... lol. Although, I must admit I'm not sorry I missed a large part of the verdict aftermath (I skimmed over most of it) because it didn't feel like the thread I'd come to know and love.

Prior to the verdict, I went back & forth in my mind about what I hoped the outcome would be. I didn't think I'd care either way, so long as he never experienced life outside of prison ever again, but I was ultimately shocked and a little disappointed when the verdict was read. I commend this jury for working as hard as they did on this case, and I totally respect their decision. And as much as I believe he deserved the DP, I'm not 100% sure I could live with being responsible for such a sentence myself... if I had been faced with it. Like many others said, Brady was able to reach the jurors when it really mattered. The things she said about mercy being more about us than him... how showing mercy doesn't mean he deserves it but showing mercy is how our society was built... how it relies on those of us who show mercy even to people who do horrible things... those words really had a powerful effect on me.

I think what just sucks so much about the LWOP sentence is knowing most of the victims wanted the DP (& THEY are who this trial was really about) and knowing that this guy will be able to watch TV, take classes, have a job, celebrate holidays, enjoy visits with his family and hug their necks... while 12 innocent people will never do any of those things ever again and 70 others will live with the horror and pain he caused for the rest of their lives... they'll carry out their days in a different type of prison... yet THEY didn't do anything to deserve their brutally cruel punishment.

Prayers for your Mom cujenn. I hope she's ok. Thank you so much for your wonderful post too. I was feeling really bad about the verdict until you put it into perspective. When one juror was determined not to change her mind there was nothing else they could do.

If JH is truly seriously mentally ill then maybe it was the correct verdict. I do know we don't choose MI, it chooses us. It is like a brain cancer. After all our brain controls everything and if it's screwed up then it must be really horrible. I guess if all those psychiatrists believed he had a serious MI and he wasn't malingering then I guess it was the correct verdict although it's hard to swallow.

I hope and pray the victims and families can find peace and move on. One victim said true freedom is forgiveness so maybe this is true. I think what bothers me the most is that JH did not make any attempt to make an apology to the victims and family. I hope he eventually addresses them by writing them a letter or something. Afterall, they did give him life. He owes them something.

Anyway, thanks everyone for being here and all the great posts, tweets, links etc. It has been a very emotional roller coaster, fun and very sad at times. I hope we all meet up on another trial.

Stay safe and well my WS friends. You guys are awesome :)
 
Cujenn,

What a well thought out and articulate post. I agree with all of your points.

I always thought I was against the DP until this trial. I was surprised at my reaction to the LWOP sentence. I didn't realise I was secretly hoping he would get death. I've had to look long and hard at myself and my motives for thinking this way as it goes against everything I believe in.

This group is special. We have communicated so well. There have been times where we have been upset, angry, outraged and many other emotions. Even with these feelings we have always been respectful and caring with our fellow posters. I am especially grateful for the way I was taken care of when things became too much and overwhelmed me.

Coldpizza has had an easy job with our thread!

I hope we will find each other for a new trial when this one is all finished. I don't want to lose touch with any of you :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
And I hope your mom gets well soon cujenn - I will pray for her too (((hugs)))


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Like many others said, Brady was able to reach the jurors when it really mattered. The things she said about mercy being more about us than him... how showing mercy doesn't mean he deserves it but showing mercy is how our society was built... how it relies on those of us who show mercy even to people who do horrible things... those words really had a powerful effect on me.

BBM

I felt the same way about the comments about mercy in the DT's closing.

MOO is that a death sentence that entails decades of appeals and the strong possibility of him never being executed is not all that much different than LWOP, except for a bit more isolation for the prisoner. It could also potentially mean that the survivors would endure the stress of years of appeals and the roller coaster of emotions that process would cause.

The other issue is that, again MOO, there really is no sentence that will ever alleviate the suffering of the victims and their families. He shot up a theater, killed a bunch of people, wounded a bunch more, permanently disabled some, caused everyone in that theater incredible psychological trauma, as well as the extensive effects on everyone else affected - from the family members who now have actual PTSD, to kids losing a parent, to the people who worked at the theater and maybe lost their job due to the theater losing so much money,.... the list of ways that "this guy" has caused other people to suffer is extremely long.

There is NOTHING that will make up for it. Even if they stuck a needle in his arm and put him to sleep tomorrow, at the most that might bring some of them a tiny, tiny but fleeting sense of comfort. But once that has passed, they'd then be facing all the other suffering that they've been enduring for the past three years.

Even if the victims could stand together and stone him to death... again, in the moment they might feel good about releasing some rage toward him, but I'm doubtful that for the majority, it would bring any meaningful, lasting feelings of closure.

In watching interviews with families of victims whose murderer was executed, I've yet to see one of them say it brought them any actual relief. Perhaps there are some out there...its certainly possible, but even then they are still left with a loss that will never go away.

While there may be punishments that could hurt him (like for example, torturing him for the next 20 years) - ultimately they do nothing for the survivors. And even if he was tortured for 20 years, that would mean we want to live in a society where that is an acceptable practice, and unless the torturers were confirmed, clinically diagnosed sadists, they would end up traumatized from having to do that to another human being, so there would be yet more victims.

One could argue that solitary confinement is a form of torture... if he did end up with death sentence, I would be curious, 10 years from now, to find out if any of the victims from this incident feel truly comforted knowing that JH has been suffering in his prison cell alone all those years. I am doubtful that any of them would say that knowledge provided them meaningful comfort and relief.

My point is that I don't think its realistic to look to what the legal system can do and connect it to any meaningful resolution for the people affected by this crime.

It is for these reasons that my only expectation and hope in terms of an outcome for this trial was that he would be prevented from ever hurting anyone else again... because I believe that is truly the only thing the justice system is capable of accomplishing in a case such as this one.

JMOO
 
Perhaps not a popular position, but in the long haul, the DP may not have been the best outcome.

I live just over an hour from the scene of this shooting. I am not without a deep appreciation of the painful impact of this case, although I cannot say my experience is remotely that of a family member or friend. But I can say that from the beginning that all the mental illness talk and images of the perpetrator, with his flaming orange hair and pop-eyed facial expression of "Me so crazy", were lost on me. He is simply, in my opinion, just another self-loathing hate-projecting coward who was smarter and more arrogant than the usual brand of criminal, and grandiose enough in his self-involvement to carry out a fantasy where he was center-stage in an act of revenge. And why is he so mad? Because he's a failure at getting along in the world. Period.

He systematically planned the slaughter of innocent people who simply went to see a movie, and then also planned to blow up any of our first responders who got near his little apartment kingdom where he conceived his act of cowardice. I will refrain from commenting on what I think of the shrink he was seeing. But I will say that one day I hope to see the DSM tossed out of credible environments of authentic scientific inquiry and called what it is - a formerly useful tool for facilitating third party reimbursement. No doubt another unpopular opinion.

So, in regard to sentencing such an individual - who, in my view, is only "sick" in the sense of the cultural vernacular, as in a pathetically "sick" joke, or nauseatingly "sick" POV - I have no problem with a death penalty outcome as far as what he deserves commensurately. But I do have a problem with his final consequences being held up year after year, under the mantle of "Too sick to kill", or "Too sad a clown", and where he is the center-stage Victim. I have a problem with seeing his otherwise forgettable name and image in the papers, in law journals, in psych literature, and being routinely reminded of his presence every time his lawyers and shrinks lament on the taxpayer's dime that it's wrong to end the life of such a "sick" person. I have a problem with ever seeing anything about him in print again.

If we are to truly be progressive and just and even sane in what we do with this type of human failure, we need to first strip them of their notoriety. Other than the obvious standard of transparency required by our system of government and its free press, the focus should be on victims and families, with references to the perpetrators limited to perfunctory information about evidence, charges, court dates, trial outcomes, and final sentencing, with the latter informing the public of a mundane chore. Imagine a culture where individuals like this are swiftly relegated to a position of receding scenery, and merely characterized as just another criminal and stalker of prey responsible for yet another act of violence. What should then distinguish these mass murder scenes from one other and make what happened memorable is the unique individuality of each victim and how much they each mattered in a world where they had station, had goals, had potential, had stories, and were loved by others.

Currently, the media is an accomplice in how these criminals are treated and elevated to archetypal storybook status. My guess is, if we gave these people no more coverage than it takes to meet basic journalistic guidelines and we stopped making them central characters, then whether we kill them or stuff them away in the dustbin of prison life would become a matter of rote details we could accept either way. I can't think of a better outcome than for these arrogant cowards to become just another number in the general math of the penal system. Dead or alive, they would be dismissed as baggage for either routine warehousing or disposal.

I personally think all of these types of perps should be killed. But when that isn't the outcome or when, realistically, the end for them won't come until the last lawyer has played his last card and heartbroken family members are utterly worn out, and sometimes no longer living themselves, I find perspective in this:

The obituary of Colorado's Lacy Miller, who was brutally murdered and dumped and set on fire, was written by her family in first person, as they believed she would have written it. When I was initially so troubled and frustrated by her mom's advocacy for sparing the life of her perpetrator, I would think of Lacy's 'last words.' http://www.2hearts4lacy.org/page/page/3131264.htm

No sentence can compete for the value and meaning of the life of an innocent victim, or ever truly be equitable. So to the extent then that we can inflict upon the perpetrator some measure of retribution, perhaps the perpetrator of the Aurora killings ultimately gets what's coming to him - a forgettable backseat to his victims whose lives were and are larger than any fleeting attention his "sick" idea offered him.

FWIW

In memory of my fellow Coloradans
 
Perhaps not a popular position, but in the long haul, the DP may not have been the best outcome.

> > > > respectfully snipped by borndem < < < <

FWIW

In memory of my fellow Coloradans

Bravo, jillycat! Very eloquent. Good post.
 
Hello All.

Had to purposely avoid this part of the trial since knew it would be a long sentencing part.

Below is JMO
I am disappointed in the outcome and I have some opinions and think there is something seriously wrong with the vetting process for jurors on DP cases.

This is becoming a habit for jurors to not be able to give DP when they go into it saying they can. We have seen this time and time again now that jurors cannot give the DP and especially in this trial they have proved what I think is happening.

The evidence was overwhelming in this case and yet the jurors could not give him DP. So my main point and theory is certain jurors just cant get themselves to do it when at the start of the trial they think they can. I think there is a serious flaw in vetting jurors.
Much more time needs to be spent up front and educating jurors and ask them can they really give someone the DP if all evidence shows they are guilty.

I think jurors are involuntarily lying to themselves and to the questions on the jury forms at the beginning. They dont do it on purpose. They really think they can give the DP but when the end of trial comes, they really cannot.

So to fix this, I think there needs to be more up front questions and training to really make sure jurors can give DP if all evidence indicates they are guilty and deserve that harsh sentence. I think jurors can be weeded out better up front if they cannot give DP.

They are fooling themselves and the court system. They don't do it on purpose. They honestly think at the beginning they can give DP but they really cant.
This problem can be fixed by better education and vetting process at the start.

The reason this is so important is the huge MONEY waisted. We have seen MANY trials now where this has happened. Some jurors even openly admit at the end they just cant give DP.
And they slipped through and were not identified up front. The up front process is way too short and brief in jury selection as far as the questions the court themselves asks the people whether they can really do a DP case.

Way too much MONEY is waisted when this happens. Its a huge problem and I don't think the courts have realized the up front process is the problem.

All JMO of course.

Glad its over and HELLO to everyone again!!!
 
I'm aware that there is no guarantee of a death sentence but there is a much higher chance of a mass murderer getting it in Texas. IMO

Yes, if he was convicted then there was a better chance of him getting a death penalty and actually be executed if he was in Texas. But that is neither here nor there, since he wasn't in Texas.
Also, quite a few people in Texas actually gotten not guilty by reason of insanity. There are other cases of mothers killing their children and getting not guilty by reason of insanity, not just Andrea Yates.
Not guilty by reason of insanity would mean that if doctors declared JH "all better" he could have been let out in the community at some point.
At least I am grateful he was convicted and is not going to be let out of prison. Which is what important to me. He would most likely never be executed anyway.
 
Hi Friends!
How is everyone? I come back daily to check in & miss the routine of being with all of you everyday.

I'm reading mixed reports from media about live coverage of the sentencing on 8/24. Some report only still photos & some say the judge has denied testimony from the victims to be aired. Not sure what it will be decided. The victims & survivors were allowed to be aired during trial but were so restricted by the defense about what they could testify about.

Now they can say anything - but defense had objected to the media's motion to air the sentencing 'to protect the victims'. Why should the defense care now about the public hearing what the survivors have to say about what the gunman did to their lives?
Anyone hear for sure if the entire sentencing will be streamed?
Hugs to all!
 
Hi Friends!
How is everyone? I come back daily to check in & miss the routine of being with all of you everyday.

I'm reading mixed reports from media about live coverage of the sentencing on 8/24. Some report only still photos & some say the judge has denied testimony from the victims to be aired. Not sure what it will be decided. The victims & survivors were allowed to be aired during trial but were so restricted by the defense about what they could testify about.

Now they can say anything - but defense had objected to the media's motion to air the sentencing 'to protect the victims'. Why should the defense care now about the public hearing what the survivors have to say about what the gunman did to their lives?
Anyone hear for sure if the entire sentencing will be streamed?
Hugs to all!

I will try and find out about the final hearing. I hope it will be streamed. It would be strange if it wasn't considering how the entire trial has been so far.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
@shelley_****** @thegoldpatrol Do you know if the final part of the #theatershooting trial will be live streamed? I'm reading conflicting reports online

@thegoldpatrol: @shelley_***** We haven’t heard for sure yet, but locals seem to think it will be. We will keep you posted

@pstenser: @shelley_****** we are planning on it


www.twitter.com/thegoldpatrol

www.twitter.com/pstenser
 
@jhexaminer: @shelley_****** According to judge's order CCTV plus KUSA will have camera in jury box and feed it out to the pool. KUSA can't show victims


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
103
Guests online
1,101
Total visitors
1,204

Forum statistics

Threads
596,563
Messages
18,049,664
Members
230,029
Latest member
myauris11
Back
Top