Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #40

Status
Not open for further replies.
First trial guilty and under appeal; acquitted in 2nd trial, and committed suicide days later. Also, under some state statute, his first conviction vacated since appeal could not be heard.
Aaron Hernandez had a pattern of some serious sociopathic behaviors for a long time. I have a hard time believing CW's actions are a result of CTE. I would also think there would be more little signs along the way - short temper, smaller examples of violence, etc. And also that he wouldn't be able to control and fake it the rest of the time like he did. The personality changes would just come out.

It is such an odd act of extreme violence to decipher - how did he go for so long in his life not showing any telling behaviors or signs? SW probably didn't hesitate to trust the girls in his care that weekend. Her family didn't seem to pick up on any flags. Even if they thought he was a jerk husband or father, no one seemed afraid of what he could possibly be capable of doing. But for someone to resort to killing their own children in such a methodical way, this isn't a personality change that happened overnight. I guess it fits the FA profile. It is just so difficult to understand or comprehend.

And there is something about the fact that he killed each member of his family individually that really gets to me. Not that it would be any better if he set the house on fire or sent them off a cliff in a car....but to actually commit three SEPARATE murders is another defining factor of his intentions. That isn't rage. That is a committed plan and methodical execution.
 
IMO the defense has a major problem if they put him on the stand. He admitted to having an affair.He admitted to what he did with the bodies, by taking LE to them. Most people are shocked and outraged by what he did with the bodies. He admitted to killing SW and Nico. He admitted, he admitted, he admitted! He lied, he lied, he lied. He might be able to change his story, but to what? And his old story and lies won't go away. I believe the prosecution will have a field day with him!

Agreed. I think that he would be wise to accept a plea deal. But he probably won't, in his pea brain, he has already convinced himself of his story, and that it is all SW's fault. He wants his day in court. I believe that it will be a circus. His lovers, NUA, he wants to tell a "story", that will come across as "Pity Party for CW".

I think that if he portrays SW as the Villian, it won't go over too well.

On the flip side, if CW was a woman, blaming her spouse for all of the problems, I might actually believe it.
 
No we don’t know that he “never” got angry. If nothing else this case shows that people hide who they really are. Since none of us was in a close relationship with CW; we can’t say he never got angry. I feel sure he got angry and only showed that side to certain people. Even the best human gets angry. IMO SW probably saw the anger before he murdered her.

There is a verified insider, who is very very close to CW. She was even at his Mother's home when the allergic/nut incident happened. So she is a close family friend . And she said that she has never seen him angry.
 
Well the insinuations aren't very welcome with some, either, no one will actually say in BW what they are implying. But I don't see why giving the "theory of why SW did it" would be against TOS. If there are facts which support the theory, I don't get it.

IMO, even entertaining the idea that a victim of a crime is responsible for that crime goes against TOS. Shanann is the victim, full stop. We cannot discuss her as the perp of the crime. I’m willing to be corrected, but that’s my view, and better safe than banned.

There are rumors, SM posts and hearsay discussed elsewhere, but Websleuths has very high standards for its TOS, and these unsubstantiated items are not allowed.

If people really want to discuss “why I think SW might have done it” there are plenty of other places on the internet. If I want to exercise my devil’s advocate muscle, I go to one of those other places. To be honest: while I find it a tad restrictive, it’s also important that there’s a place on the internet that is 100% victim-friendly, and I wouldn’t change the policies here for anything.

(For the record, I think Chris killed them all, and it would take incontrovertible hard evidence for me to believe Shanann did anything to harm her children.)
 
Yes :) I was not including you as one of the attorneys. However, couple of questions for you:

(1) while you point out that you are not at all convinced he would be convicted on the current evidence and think there is a compelling argument to create reasonable doubt (which I do wish you would share :) , are you also saying there is not an excellent case to be made here by the prosecution, based on what we know?

(2) Do you agree convictions have been made (e.g. Scott Peterson) on the same or less evidence?

(3) While you have some thoughts on a great defense to be made, I do note now and from past posts that you mention your own personal viewpoint may differ. I suspect you think he is guilty. Am I right? And I assume that is from the evidence we currently see. So in your professional opinion, am I right to assume that you think there are avenues for a great defense case, but you personally believe at this point he looks guilty and could be convicted on what we have?

Thanks in advance!

Sounds like you’ve got me pretty much figured out :)

Yes, I think there is absolutely a good case to be made by the prosecution.

Yes, convictions have been made in similar cases - tough to use terms like “more” or “less” evidence - since it’s all going to be different from case to case, and it’s the unique combination of evidence (along with jury instructions, jurors, etc) that may make the ultimate difference.

And my personal opinion... let’s just say I keep my mind open to what’s possible, without ignoring the facts and what’s probable. Too much division on here... my position will be as neutral as possible :)
 
No we don’t know that he “never” got angry. If nothing else this case shows that people hide who they really are. Since none of us was in a close relationship with CW; we can’t say he never got angry. I feel sure he got angry and only showed that side to certain people. Even the best human gets angry. IMO SW probably saw the anger before he murdered her.

I totally agree. If most people were asked about my DH, they’d say he is always calm and doesn’t have a temper. Our close family members know he can get up a pretty good head of steam when called for. I suspect this was also true of both CW and SW. I think many people hide that aspect of their personality in public. This is not even to imply CW was hiding murderous anger. I’m saying it’s not odd to me that people are saying he never got angry and I doubt that it is actually true. Jmo.
 
So last night I sucked it up and read Nick van der Leek’s second “book” on this case, “TWO FACE: BENEATH THE OIL.”

After reading his first “book,” I had set a pretty low bar as far as expectations go. Amazingly, this one set the bar for the inevitable third book, right around ground level.

Imagine that one of us, someone intimately familiar with the case, was to take LSD and then attempt to write a book. It would likely be far more coherent, and relevant, than the pointless drivel that this guy just produced.

Considering this crime happened less than two months ago, and this guy is already profiting from it, this is literally capitalism at its worst.

But I digress.

Our esteemed, “best selling author,” opens once again with a premeditated scenario. Shanann returns home from her trip, and enters the house, where she is immediately attacked. He describes CW using Bella’s pillowcase to form a type of lasso (referring to ligature strangulation), which he uses to strangle her.

He moves on to discuss the area in which CW grew up, an economically downtrodden town in North Carolina. The point here, is to illustrate that he came from nothing.

The “author’ discusses identity, and how important it is to us. He describes his own “existential crisis,” and how a life coach convinced him to change careers and become an author (possibly the worst advice ever given to any person, in the history of humanity).

He recounts a phone call from a producer at HLN. Basically, she was sussing him out, trying to figure out what inside information he had and who his sources were (none and none).

He talks about how hopeful he was that this could lead to him being interviewed, and how that could positively affect his “book” sales. After the 20 minute phone conversation, in which the producer apparently took no notes (who would), she basically told him “thanks, but no thanks.”

He then attacks the Thayers, who had the gaul to leave a message on his blog page demanding he remove a photo that NT took, that appeared on the cover of the first book. He touches on the legalities of him doing so, and seems to hold a grudge against them for complaining.

I’m not going to go into it, but he devoted an inordinate amount of time discussing what he sees as similarities between the Watts’ and the Thayers (I genuinely hope they sue him).

He goes after Thrive again, going as far as to make the (ridiculous) assertion that Shanann’s Facebook page is still up, in order to promote the company.

He spends a good portion of the “book” on something relatively insignificant, that damn Santa video. He talks about how contrived it was, and how it is a contradiction of the image SW was trying to convey.

A recurring theme throughout, is the loss of CW’s identity in the shadow of Shanann, and how he killed his family in order to reclaim it.

The “author” makes a (rare) good point when he discusses CW’s chance of getting away with the crime, saying that the video evidence from his neighbor’s surveillance camera, all but guaranteed his discovery.

He raises the insane notion that CW grilling on the night in question, was an effort to hide unpleasant smells, possibly from chemicals. The assertion here is that the kids were already dead at this point.

He closes by discussing other cases, offers ridiculous ideas about symbolism, and delves into pointless discussion about Anadarko.

He adds: “If there is a silver linish shimmering somewhere on this giant oil cloud, it’s the fact that this case-grotesque as it is - also reveals the nature of the world to ourselves.” [How incredibly deep]

Some silver lining...

My silver lining lining is that I just wasted 45 minutes reading complete nonsense. And it’s over.
Thanks for the summary and for reading this "book":eek: so that we didn't have to!
 
@Mrspratcher @Amandaaa @gitana1

CW currently doesn't have bail? If his attorneys wanted a bail hearing, what would that hearing entail? What kind of arguments would they and the prosecution make at such a hearing to attempt to sway the judge's opinion to their 'side'?

And what kind of difference in bail amounts would you expect to see between someone accused of 1x murder 1 vs someone accused of 5x murder 1?
 
I would love to hear what kind of evidence would get our fence-sitters off the fence, one way or another.
Yes, I would also like to hear what kind of evidence would get them off the fence.

Any theories as opposed to innuendo about SW would be great. If CW's claims are true it would be truly unprecedented, so any explanation for his subsequent lies and coverup would be truly appreciated.
 
OMG, Ashleigh Banfield intro is

"Shocking videos unearthed from Mom's Facebook!"

" a treasure Trove of Clues just discovered, new Clues found in online videos"

Her whole show is going to focus on the videos oh my gosh
 
IMO, even entertaining the idea that a victim of a crime is responsible for that crime goes against TOS. Shanann is the victim, full stop. We cannot discuss her as the perp of the crime. I’m willing to be corrected, but that’s my view, and better safe than banned.

There are rumors, SM posts and hearsay discussed elsewhere, but Websleuths has very high standards for its TOS, and these unsubstantiated items are not allowed.

If people really want to discuss “why I think SW might have done it” there are plenty of other places on the internet. If I want to exercise my devil’s advocate muscle, I go to one of those other places. To be honest: while I find it a tad restrictive, it’s also important that there’s a place on the internet that is 100% victim-friendly, and I wouldn’t change the policies here for anything.

(For the record, I think Chris killed them all, and it would take incontrovertible hard evidence for me to believe Shanann did anything to harm her children.)

That is the case for most of Websleuths, but Tricia and the Mods here have allowed us to discuss the possibility that SW murdered the girls. Because CW claims she did and some posters believe him, we have been allowed to discuss the possibility he is telling the truth. Unfortunately it has turned into a bunch of victim blaming and subtle insinuations with no substance. I have yet to see any evidence presented here that SW could have murdered her girls. The defense will have to show she did it to keep making that claim and I can't imagine what they are going to present in court at this point. It's too bad no one feels comfortable discussing what they think the defense will say to convince the jury of SW's guilt. JMO.
 
I would love to hear what kind of evidence would get our fence-sitters off the fence, one way or another.
I've answered this before, but don't mind repeating. The physical evidence from the autopsies may be helpful. Things such as bruising patterns, sizes, locations. The certain truth of exactly how big the tank openings are and whether the girls could fit in them without ...adjustments. Text messages and electronic conversations between CW and SW are likely to be helpful information. I'm not actually sitting on the fence...just leaning on it at this point, but remaining open as more information comes in. I'm also curious to see if we find anything out about either parent having any prior mental health issues. Those are just a few things I'm interested in seeing. My opinion is likely to change and morph as I gain more information. It's impossible to say what one piece would do it, but any more confirmed facts will play into any opinions I have.
 
Aaron Hernandez had a pattern of some serious sociopathic behaviors for a long time. I have a hard time believing CW's actions are a result of CTE. I would also think there would be more little signs along the way - short temper, smaller examples of violence, etc. And also that he wouldn't be able to control and fake it the rest of the time like he did. The personality changes would just come out.

It is such an odd act of extreme violence to decipher - how did he go for so long in his life not showing any telling behaviors or signs? SW probably didn't hesitate to trust the girls in his care that weekend. Her family didn't seem to pick up on any flags. Even if they thought he was a jerk husband or father, no one seemed afraid of what he could possibly be capable of doing. But for someone to resort to killing their own children in such a methodical way, this isn't a personality change that happened overnight. I guess it fits the FA profile. It is just so difficult to understand or comprehend.

And there is something about the fact that he killed each member of his family individually that really gets to me. Not that it would be any better if he set the house on fire or sent them off a cliff in a car....but to actually commit three SEPARATE murders is another defining factor of his intentions. That isn't rage. That is a committed plan and methodical execution.
It's difficult to post such words, and thank you for your clear, logical post.
 
I've answered this before, but don't mind repeating. The physical evidence from the autopsies may be helpful. Things such as bruising patterns, sizes, locations. The certain truth of exactly how big the tank openings are and whether the girls could fit in them without ...adjustments. Text messages and electronic conversations between CW and SW are likely to be helpful information. I'm not actually sitting on the fence...just leaning on it at this point, but remaining open as more information comes in. I'm also curious to see if we find anything out about either parent having any prior mental health issues. Those are just a few things I'm interested in seeing. My opinion is likely to change and morph as I gain more information. It's impossible to say what one piece would do it, but any more confirmed facts will play into any opinions I have.

Thanks. Sorry if I haven't seen you answer the question before, I admit I have had to skip huge chunks of some threads in order to keep up.

I am curious what was found on autopsy, even if they COD for Shanann and both girls is strangulation. The affidavit has CW saying he saw one child being strangled and that he strangled Shanann in response, but it doesn't say anything about the COD for the other child.

It would also be interesting if there were any communications between CW and SW over that weekend, and maybe before that, but especially the night Shanann was traveling back from AZ.
 
<modsnip - quoted post has been removed>.

In my opinion the videos are not the right instrument to evaluate Shannan's parental skills or her mental state or whatever people like to interpret in it . They just caught a few moments out of a day and most of them where uploaded for selling purposes. And to be honest if it was just for the videos neither Shannan nor Chris seemed to be capeble of commiting such a gruesome crime. He seemed to be a loving father and supporting husband often holding "CeCe" in his arms - but as we all would get to know later the reality looked different. This is should be the first hint that those videos don't tell us the entire truth about the Watts.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yes, I would also like to hear what kind of evidence would get them off the fence.

Any theories as opposed to innuendo about SW would be great. If CW's claims are true it would be truly unprecedented, so any explanation for his subsequent lies and coverup would be truly appreciated.
So, wait, are you interested in hearing theories, or only ones which don't involve SW?
 
I've answered this before, but don't mind repeating. The physical evidence from the autopsies may be helpful. Things such as bruising patterns, sizes, locations. The certain truth of exactly how big the tank openings are and whether the girls could fit in them without ...adjustments. Text messages and electronic conversations between CW and SW are likely to be helpful information. I'm not actually sitting on the fence...just leaning on it at this point, but remaining open as more information comes in. I'm also curious to see if we find anything out about either parent having any prior mental health issues. Those are just a few things I'm interested in seeing. My opinion is likely to change and morph as I gain more information. It's impossible to say what one piece would do it, but any more confirmed facts will play into any opinions I have.
I can understand wanting to hear those things, I think most of us do. One thing you said I am curious about - is that it would be important for you to know if CW had to make adjustments to fit the bodies in the tanks. Do you mean that makes him more likely to have committed their murders? Dumping them in the tanks without adjustments is more understandable in your mind and not indicative of him being their murderer?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
93
Guests online
1,991
Total visitors
2,084

Forum statistics

Threads
594,294
Messages
18,002,173
Members
229,362
Latest member
undefined.value
Back
Top