CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #3

[MayraMM]

That baffles me as well. Doesn't she say in the blog that it was the sheriff's dept. that responded? They called the local police in the beginning and were told they were in the sheriff's jurisdiction ...

I was a journalist for 10 years and part of our job at the newspaper was to get police blotters/reports. Even if they were called out to a scene and found nothing, that should still be in the blotter, but not necessarily have a full report (ie: suspicious vehicle seen in a neighborhood wouldn't have a report unless they found the vehicle and there was something going on). Some departments, however, seemed to leave things out or be so vague in the blotter that you wouldn't think to ask to see an actual report. One in particular would leave out things they didn't want reported or so the rumour mill suggested (often). Some departments were so open that they would give us full reports without our asking (even in one case where a kid had stolen things from the police department itself).

Do the run sheets you are speaking about have every minute incident for every day, from all the police beats? I haven't seen them so I'm just wondering what they look like (sorry if someone linked them and I missed it).

It baffles me, too. At first I thought it might just be exaggeration, but LE is quoted as saying they responded 50 times, as well. The only thing I can think at this point is that the newspaper article was incorrect. Apparently they got a few other things wrong, as well.

In the log that does exist, there are cases of abandoned cars, animals on the loose, all sorts of stuff. You'd think these would be mentioned, as well, unless there really is a conspiracy to hide a community peeper/stalker, which is highly unlikely.

 

[AbcInAthens]

There doesn't seem to be any actual LE documented evidence of a stalker. As others have already pointed out, with all the motion activated cameras and lights, and people sitting up outside and neighbors keeping watch, it seems odd that no evidence considered substantial by LE was ever offered up.

(snipped quote)
MelissaDawn--Curious how do you think it became a felony stalking case without evidence of a stalker? (Not at all trying to sound snarky.) Maybe we're missing some key evidence? And TI hasn't gone through December yet in her blog so I'm assuming there's much more to come which might further substantiate stalking.

 

[Kateinfl]

I don't understand why she slept in the closet. Seems a little over reacting. Why not sleep in bed with mom and let her father take her room..while this was going on.

 

[AbcInAthens]

I don't understand why she slept in the closet. Seems a little over reacting. Why not sleep in bed with mom and let her father take her room..while this was going on.

And especially since there's a window in that closet.

 

[Sailorsgirl]

Sailorsgirl--I posted them on the 2nd page of this thread. Here's the link: (http://www.garcosheriff.com/sheriffs_activity_log.html) Take a look and tell me what you think.

Interesting, but it does seem like there isn't a lot going on. They cover the entire county. I would expect more "false alarms" at residents or businesses, welfare checks, suspicious activity, etc. However, I did notice this sentence at the top of the page:

"The data is taken from the Sheriff's Office's case reports."

This leaves me to believe they don't include everything, but an array of reports from the different areas they cover. For example, when I was at the newspaper, one town had a lot of "suspicious vehicles." We wouldn't put in all of them, just as many as was needed to flush out the blotter (we liked to have at least 5-10 for each town ... some we had no problem filling, others had very little activity other than false alarms, suspicious vehicles and loose dogs).

My guess is that someone would have to request the blotters from that time period and go through each day to find every report. I don't know how big the department is and I have never covered a sheriff's dept. The state police here had numerous pages of handwritten logs (in each trooper's handwriting). It can be time-consuming, but would definitely be worth a look. Wish I lived out there!

 

[MayraMM]

(snipped quote)
MelissaDawn--Curious how do you think it became a felony stalking case without evidence of a stalker? (Not at all trying to sound snarky.) Maybe we're missing some key evidence? And TI hasn't gone through December yet in her blog so I'm assuming there's much more to come which might further substantiate stalking.

In the state of Colorado, all stalking is a felony. There is no misdemeanor stalking. It would be classified as something else, like harassment.

I believe it was gitana1 who posted at the end of the last thread the criteria for making the switch from harassment to stalking, and I believe it has to do with how many complaints are filed, not because there was a certain level of evidence.

 

[rollinginit]

Welcome to all the new posters!

I'm probaly the only one left, but I believe the parents and I will until there is some hard proof against it. JMO.

I really do believe it is possible that the ME brushed the parents aside. It's been my experience, some dr's don't like to be questioned.... And don't you dare suggest they may be wrong.

I think this case is very strange, and very heartbreaking.

I will keep reading The blog everyday. I hope the Ingrams get some answers.

JMO

 

[MelissaDawn]

(snipped quote)
MelissaDawn--Curious how do you think it became a felony stalking case without evidence of a stalker? (Not at all trying to sound snarky.) Maybe we're missing some key evidence? And TI hasn't gone through December yet in her blog so I'm assuming there's much more to come which might further substantiate stalking.

Maybe I missed it (there's a lot of reading to this) but I was under the impression that the only one stating it was bumped up to a felony stalking case was TI. I don't really know the stalking laws, so I don't know what constitutes harassment and what constitutes felony stalking, was guessing number of incidents reported and/or escalation in type of incidents. But I have to admit I'm also confused on how the idea of a restraining order came up in this investigation since I don't understand how a restraining order can be issued if you don't know who to name to be restrained. If you have an idea, but no evidence, I suspect a judge wouldn't grant a restraining order anyway.

I'm anxiously awaiting the rest of the blog too, because you're right that there is more to come that we don't know yet.

 

[lillygator]

(snipped quote)
MelissaDawn--Curious how do you think it became a felony stalking case without evidence of a stalker? (Not at all trying to sound snarky.) Maybe we're missing some key evidence? And TI hasn't gone through December yet in her blog so I'm assuming there's much more to come which might further substantiate stalking.

I think a prior poster addressed that, in looking at the statutes/laws there was something about the amount of times police were called to the house could alter the name change.
Personally I see no eveidence of a stalker from what has been posted thus far.

 

[lillygator]

My sense from reading the blog and the law is that the sheriff's department had an inner protocol that helped them determine whether misdemeanor harassment would be elevated to felony stalking. I think that protocol has to do with the number of calls they get.

The law states that it is felony stalking if a person: BBM.
http://colorado-domestic-violence-lawyer.com/colorado_law_harassment_stalking_statute.html

So how do law enforcement personnel decide if conduct is stalking, in the absence of a credible threat? I think the have selected a random number of incidents that raises it to the level of stalking, when no threat is present. Just my hunch.

here.....

 

[Sailorsgirl]

New blog post: http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1264

 

[MayraMM]

Mom said on the interview she was going to speed up the telling of her story so people would have all the facts to work with, but so far we haven't received anything new. I really wish we had something to work with. I hope she goes down and picks up the copies of the police reports, ME reports, first responders call sheets, and posts them so we can have something concrete to work with. She has the right to those documents, so whether she posts them or not, I hope she goes and gets them.

 

[Kateinfl]

The man that they got on the video.....is kind of strange though.....but in that time..he didn't have a hoodie on.....that they mentioned he was wearing at other times. And if he broke the camera because the picture was taken..that seems very odd too. The police were just there..and you come out right in the open to watch them leave? Knowing the family is inside and can be seeing you?

 

[Cazzie]

From Syra on the last thread: IDK-I guess I don't understand why people would go out & spend thousands of dollars on security to protect their family if no one was really stalking them & then to have your beautiful spiritual loving daughter die. I really don't see M compounding that sorrow on her parents by killing herself.KWIM

I don't see how they can be that focused on a stalker, spend that money on equipment and NOT immediately think there was foul play involved in her death.

I also don't see how all that equipment caught nothing definitive.

And as for hiding evidence of a suicide . . . what evidence? If she had a handful of pills she was hoarding, it's not like she necessarily had to have a bunch of bubble packs lying around. Was there a glass of water on her night stand? One her bathroom counter? We don't even know the condition of her body when it was found, much less the items in her room. Mom says first responders were shocked. Why? We haven't been given a lot of crucial information. Maybe as those things are revealed I'll change my views on this case, but as of now, I think it was suicide.

Everyone who commits suicide leaves behind a lot of pain. It's a very selfish act. We didn't know this girl, we don't know what she was really like, her innermost thoughts, her fears, her private struggles.

We know she was young, beautiful, and talented. What a tragic loss, no matter how it came about. But, because she was young and beautiful and talented, it's harder to imagine her taking her own life.

BBM.

JMO but that sounds very judgmental, and not compassionate for the suicidal person. But maybe you were looking at it from just the perspective of those left behind. It's kind of a dichotomy...

Try to imagine how troubled/tormented someone must feel (whatever the particular circumstances are), and they see no other way out of such. I highly doubt that it's an "easy way out" for anyone attempting such, but rather they wrestle with it and either don't have adequate emotional support from others and/or adequate coping skills.

Every individual has a survival instinct...but try to imagine if your circumstances seem insurmountable...so it would be an internal war, especially if one has dependents (human or animal) and/or personal goals for the future.

I've heard/read people say that you can't drive anyone to suicide, along with all the blah blah about everyone having responsibility for themselves, and I disagree. If someone(s) is bullying/terrorizing/stalking someone, the victim could absolutely become suicidal. JMO.

I'm not sure if any of what I posted relates to Morgan (don't think so, as I do not want to believe that she committed suicide), but I just had to respond.

 

[21merc7]

The man that they got on the video.....is kind of strange though.....but in that time..he didn't have a hoodie on.....that they mentioned he was wearing at other times. And if he broke the camera because the picture was taken..that seems very odd too. The police were just there..and you come out right in the open to watch them leave? Knowing the family is inside and can be seeing you?

I'm still not clear on the hitting the cam. The only image I have seen could be anything. It could be pine needles for all I know. I am guessing I am not looking at the right image? For all we know M went out there to move the cam, if it was moved at all. Maybe she didn't like it for her own reasons. I just don't know on that one.

 

[rollinginit]

Mom posted a comment on the car following m and how the LE had made flyers

http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1230#comments

 

[Sailorsgirl]

The man that they got on the video.....is kind of strange though.....but in that time..he didn't have a hoodie on.....that they mentioned he was wearing at other times. And if he broke the camera because the picture was taken..that seems very odd too. The police were just there..and you come out right in the open to watch them leave? Knowing the family is inside and can be seeing you?

I think of it this way ... they felt a small victory in knowing their camera was going to capture the stalker. He felt a small victory in figuring out the camera and breaking it. Sort of like giving the family the middle finger. Besides, once his photo was taken, he knew where the camera was and how to avoid being captured on it. All he had to do was go round the back of the house, come back around and hit the camera.

 

[21merc7]

BBM.

JMO but that sounds very judgmental, and not compassionate for the suicidal person. But maybe you were looking at it from just the perspective of those left behind. It's kind of a dichotomy...

Try to imagine how troubled/tormented someone must feel (whatever the particular circumstances are), and they see no other way out of such. I highly doubt that it's an "easy way out" for anyone attempting such, but rather they wrestle with it and either don't have adequate emotional support from others and/or adequate coping skills.

Every individual has a survival instinct...but try to imagine if your circumstances seem insurmountable...so it would be an internal war, especially if one has dependents (human or animal) and/or personal goals for the future.

I've heard/read people say that you can't drive anyone to suicide, along with all the blah blah about everyone having responsibility for themselves, and I disagree. If someone(s) is bullying/terrorizing/stalking someone, the victim could absolutely become suicidal. JMO.

I'm not sure any of what I posted relates to Morgan (don't think so, as I do not want to believe that she committed suicide), but I just had to respond.

I have never liked the phrase either. To me, suicide is more thinking ABOUT the others and how less burdened they will be when you are gone. All be it a bit skewed through the depression.

 

[MayraMM]

BBM.

JMO but that sounds very judgmental, and not compassionate for the suicidal person.

It is judgmental. But that's how I feel. Of course, as with everything, there are exceptions (notably someone with a terminal disease who discussed it with family and choose euthanasia), but I really do find that taking ones life is a selfish act in that it leaves the survivors feeling intense quilt, anger, pain, and lack of understanding. Children are left to wonder why mommy or daddy chose not to be there for them, parents are left to wonder if they could have done more to save their beloved child, friends feel like they weren't being very good friends in not detecting and stopping it. Everyone wonders if they shoulda/woulda/coulda seen the signs and done something about it.

Yes, the person who can't take it any more is no longer suffering, but the people he/she left behind are. In my book, that's selfish.

 

[gitana1]

(snipped quote)
MelissaDawn--Curious how do you think it became a felony stalking case without evidence of a stalker? (Not at all trying to sound snarky.) Maybe we're missing some key evidence? And TI hasn't gone through December yet in her blog so I'm assuming there's much more to come which might further substantiate stalking.

Essentially, when someone makes a complaint, their statement is evidence. (So LE cannot really say there was zero evidence, BTW).

If persons are making repeated allegations of stalking, the police must open an investigation into the crime alleged. The police investigated the complaints, from what I can tell from the blog, as misdemeanor harassment first, and then as felony stalking. I think the switch occurred because it went on so long and was so pervasive as to cause emotional distress in the victims, which is one of the ways harassment can be deemed stalking under Colorado law.

As I stated in a previous post, how do police determine, without a credible threat (which is also how a crime is classified as stalking), that the crime to investigate is stalking? My feeling, based on some tiny bit of knowledge of how LE investigates, is that when the complaints reached a certain number, they feel comfortable calling the alleged crime, "stalking".

But remember, just because there is an investigation and just because the police have classified the crime they are investigating a certain way, does not mean they found anything to substantiate the complaint.

We really need to hear more from LE.

Welcome to all the new posters!

I'm probaly the only one left, but I believe the parents and I will until there is some hard proof against it. JMO.

I really do believe it is possible that the ME brushed the parents aside. It's been my experience, some dr's don't like to be questioned.... And don't you dare suggest they may be wrong.

I think this case is very strange, and very heartbreaking.

I will keep reading The blog everyday. I hope the Ingrams get some answers.

JMO

I don't think you are alone. And I hope you continue to voice your opinions and the reasons for them.

I will note that there are a couple of comments on the blog that support your feeling that it is possible this family was brushed aside.

In fact, they describe a small town environment in which "determined ignorance" is par for the course, especially among the authorities who may not have the skill set to know what they are doing.

That is certainly something to consider.

Maybe I missed it (there's a lot of reading to this) but I was under the impression that the only one stating it was bumped up to a felony stalking case was TI. I don't really know the stalking laws, so I don't know what constitutes harassment and what constitutes felony stalking, was guessing number of incidents reported and/or escalation in type of incidents. But I have to admit I'm also confused on how the idea of a restraining order came up in this investigation since I don't understand how a restraining order can be issued if you don't know who to name to be restrained. If you have an idea, but no evidence, I suspect a judge wouldn't grant a restraining order anyway.

I'm anxiously awaiting the rest of the blog too, because you're right that there is more to come that we don't know yet.

In my experience (I;m a family law attorney), you can definitely get restraining orders based on allegation alone, without hard evidence).

In such a situation, the judge hears testimony and determines the credibility of those testifying. Many are experiecned enough to know when a story sounds like nonsense or when someone is lying.