I am on the fence as to whether the parents did it or AN other/s but do not think Burke was in any way involved, I still remain completely dumbfounded, astonished, and perplexed beyond words that both parents and police first responders did not systematically search each room from top to bottom, looking in every cupboard and under beds upstairs and downstairs, if her body had been found as soon as the first LE respondents got their then much of the proceeding mess would not have happened, house would have been sealed as crime scene thus preserving all evidence, maybe LE would have then properly and professionally dealt with Patsy, John and Burke and immediately separated them and questioned them,
Day 5 The John, Patsy and Burke's behavior/ The 12 days of JonBenet
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madeleine
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TOM HANEY: "And have you talked about it a lot, have you discussed all of these various theories?"
PATSY RAMSEY: "Over and over and over."
TOM HANEY: "You say he didn't do it and he says you didn't do it, and didn't have any part in any coverup, anything like that. Any staging. That only leaves one other person alive in the house at the time, that's Burke."
PATSY RAMSEY: "And the murderer."
TOM HANEY: "5:52 A.M.?"
PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. So?"
TOM HANEY: "So you said it wasn't you and it wasn't John. Could it have been Burke?"
PATSY RAMSEY: "No. It wouldn't have been Burke."
TOM HANEY: "Why couldn't it?"
PATSY RAMSEY: "How do you believe you saw (inaudible) a ten year old, nine year old boy (inaudible). Plus the fact that he loved his sister."
TOM HANEY: "It's not unheard of for a nine or ten year old child?"
PATSY RAMSEY: "My child is unheard of."
TOM HANEY: "And why is that? What would make him different from some other nine or ten year old?"
PATSY RAMSEY: "Because he was not raised in a family of violence. We are a very loving family."
TOM HANEY: "Could it have been an accident?"
PATSY RAMSEY: "I -- don't know."
TOM HANEY: "Well, you and I don't know because we weren't there?"
PATSY RAMSEY: "Right."
TOM HANEY: "So do you think it could have been, he could have pushed her down the stairs -- "
PATSY RAMSEY: "Burke Ramsey did not do this, okay. He did not do this. Get off it."
TOM HANEY: "How do you know that, though? I mean, have you talked to him about it?"
PATSY RAMSEY: "Yes."
----------------------
TH: "What have you told Burke about the murder?"
PR: "To date?"
TH: "To date."
PR: "Well, just that we are going to try to find out who did this to JonBenet. I haven't told him anything about how she was murdered or the details like that."
TH: "What details would he know or had you talked with him about?"
PR: "To be quite honest, we really haven't talked to him much about it. It's too hard, you know, it's hard to talk about."
TH: "Has he volunteered information?"
PR: "No."
TH: "Has he had questions?"
PR: "No."
TH: "Never 'what's going to happen, who did it'?"
PR: "No."
TH: "Did he ever mention getting up at any time during the night?"
PR: "No."
TH: "So he slept through until -- I believe it was John that ultimately got him up to take to the Fernies?"
PR: "Yes, to my knowledge."
TH: "How about with the moving and all of that, has that caused some problems for him, change of schools?"
PR: "Yeah. And I have been in touch with the counselors and the teachers and everybody, alert to this. And they said that -- they are remarkably surprised at how well he is doing. He just makes friends and gets good grades."
TH: "So his adjustment's been pretty -- "
PR: "Been pretty good."
TH: "You mentioned I think when I asked you yesterday, had you seen an interview from last week with Burke. You said no?"
PR: "No."
TH: "There were like three days, and the first two days were pretty basic questions, but on the third day there were questions where the discussion was around JonBenet and death. And I am no psychologist, psychiatrist, but immediately noticed a change in Burke and his demeanor. He's curled up in his chair something like this, not sitting like this, but in a chair like this, and he's half in a fetal position and it seems to be a real struggle, a real difficult time. I am wondering if you noticed anything similar, any changes?"
PR: "Well, I may have -- I have had him in therapy just for this reason."
TH: "Does it seem like he knows more than he is saying, and obviously he's not saying much?"
PR: "Right."
TH: "Like he's keeping something in?"
PR: "As far as something about who did it, I don't think he knows. I mean, he would say."
TH: "Is that something that you have asked the doctor to explore?"
PR: "I don't know if I have directly asked him that."
----------------------------
can you believe all this BS??
PATSY RAMSEY: "Over and over and over."
TOM HANEY: "You say he didn't do it and he says you didn't do it, and didn't have any part in any coverup, anything like that. Any staging. That only leaves one other person alive in the house at the time, that's Burke."
PATSY RAMSEY: "And the murderer."
TOM HANEY: "5:52 A.M.?"
PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. So?"
TOM HANEY: "So you said it wasn't you and it wasn't John. Could it have been Burke?"
PATSY RAMSEY: "No. It wouldn't have been Burke."
TOM HANEY: "Why couldn't it?"
PATSY RAMSEY: "How do you believe you saw (inaudible) a ten year old, nine year old boy (inaudible). Plus the fact that he loved his sister."
TOM HANEY: "It's not unheard of for a nine or ten year old child?"
PATSY RAMSEY: "My child is unheard of."
TOM HANEY: "And why is that? What would make him different from some other nine or ten year old?"
PATSY RAMSEY: "Because he was not raised in a family of violence. We are a very loving family."
TOM HANEY: "Could it have been an accident?"
PATSY RAMSEY: "I -- don't know."
TOM HANEY: "Well, you and I don't know because we weren't there?"
PATSY RAMSEY: "Right."
TOM HANEY: "So do you think it could have been, he could have pushed her down the stairs -- "
PATSY RAMSEY: "Burke Ramsey did not do this, okay. He did not do this. Get off it."
TOM HANEY: "How do you know that, though? I mean, have you talked to him about it?"
PATSY RAMSEY: "Yes."
----------------------
TH: "What have you told Burke about the murder?"
PR: "To date?"
TH: "To date."
PR: "Well, just that we are going to try to find out who did this to JonBenet. I haven't told him anything about how she was murdered or the details like that."
TH: "What details would he know or had you talked with him about?"
PR: "To be quite honest, we really haven't talked to him much about it. It's too hard, you know, it's hard to talk about."
TH: "Has he volunteered information?"
PR: "No."
TH: "Has he had questions?"
PR: "No."
TH: "Never 'what's going to happen, who did it'?"
PR: "No."
TH: "Did he ever mention getting up at any time during the night?"
PR: "No."
TH: "So he slept through until -- I believe it was John that ultimately got him up to take to the Fernies?"
PR: "Yes, to my knowledge."
TH: "How about with the moving and all of that, has that caused some problems for him, change of schools?"
PR: "Yeah. And I have been in touch with the counselors and the teachers and everybody, alert to this. And they said that -- they are remarkably surprised at how well he is doing. He just makes friends and gets good grades."
TH: "So his adjustment's been pretty -- "
PR: "Been pretty good."
TH: "You mentioned I think when I asked you yesterday, had you seen an interview from last week with Burke. You said no?"
PR: "No."
TH: "There were like three days, and the first two days were pretty basic questions, but on the third day there were questions where the discussion was around JonBenet and death. And I am no psychologist, psychiatrist, but immediately noticed a change in Burke and his demeanor. He's curled up in his chair something like this, not sitting like this, but in a chair like this, and he's half in a fetal position and it seems to be a real struggle, a real difficult time. I am wondering if you noticed anything similar, any changes?"
PR: "Well, I may have -- I have had him in therapy just for this reason."
TH: "Does it seem like he knows more than he is saying, and obviously he's not saying much?"
PR: "Right."
TH: "Like he's keeping something in?"
PR: "As far as something about who did it, I don't think he knows. I mean, he would say."
TH: "Is that something that you have asked the doctor to explore?"
PR: "I don't know if I have directly asked him that."
----------------------------
can you believe all this BS??
CoreyRocks
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There are so many but I'll mention a couple.
The fact that Burke went to the Whites apparently without questioning/wondering what was going on makes me believe he had to know. Lack of concern not seeing JonBenet. Also I know it's superficial but what 9 year old would not question their Disney vacation.
Also Patsy and John lack of endearment for their youngest JonBenet. Anytime she was mentioned it was NOT loving imho. JR calling her a handful almost in relief she was gone.
JR supposedly at airport loading plane getting it ready for the next day early morning departure, loading presents, when PR seemed to stress the presents were not even wrapped yet.
JR going to get the mail when they had a mail slot in their front door. Plus why wouldn't you put your mail on hold AT the post office if you were going on vacation. Did they check post office cameras. IMHO whatever he was OUT for more than an hour doing something had zero to do with mail.
All my opinion. I better stop now.
The fact that Burke went to the Whites apparently without questioning/wondering what was going on makes me believe he had to know. Lack of concern not seeing JonBenet. Also I know it's superficial but what 9 year old would not question their Disney vacation.
Also Patsy and John lack of endearment for their youngest JonBenet. Anytime she was mentioned it was NOT loving imho. JR calling her a handful almost in relief she was gone.
JR supposedly at airport loading plane getting it ready for the next day early morning departure, loading presents, when PR seemed to stress the presents were not even wrapped yet.
JR going to get the mail when they had a mail slot in their front door. Plus why wouldn't you put your mail on hold AT the post office if you were going on vacation. Did they check post office cameras. IMHO whatever he was OUT for more than an hour doing something had zero to do with mail.
All my opinion. I better stop now.
CoreyRocks
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Oh forgot ... PR not remembering why she called Jonbenet ' s pediatrician 3 times in 10 minutes earlier in the month. And was it Dr. Beuf locking JBR's medical records in a safety deposit box. What is that all about?
jillyr1059
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Could it be discussing how lawyer is billing? "You are on realtime" ...paid by the hour?
Rather than a flat fee.
Being paid by the hour would be very costly and surely you would expect some products from this money you are shelling out....
So it seems crazy that nobody has consulted with the Ramseys on their findings....
MOO
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Good post.
I always saw the sending of Burke away as an effort to prevent him from seeing one or both parents arrested and/or from seeing JonBenet's dead body brought out.
IndianPaintbrush
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PR wearing the same clothes she wore the night before. Everyone who knew her said she wouldn't be caught dead in the same outfit two days in a row.
Boulder PD losing track of JR's whereabouts in the home for something close to an hour that morning. Huge red flag given the fact that JR "discovered" her body soon afterwards. Trying to fly out of Boulder on a phony business meeting, staying away from his wife.
Overall I'd say the biggest behavioral red flag is the massive legal wall they built between themselves and police. And I'm someone who fervently believes that any criminal suspect should lawyer up. But you can lawyer up and still cooperate in the interest of finding a killer. The Ramseys did nothing of the sort.
Boulder PD losing track of JR's whereabouts in the home for something close to an hour that morning. Huge red flag given the fact that JR "discovered" her body soon afterwards. Trying to fly out of Boulder on a phony business meeting, staying away from his wife.
Overall I'd say the biggest behavioral red flag is the massive legal wall they built between themselves and police. And I'm someone who fervently believes that any criminal suspect should lawyer up. But you can lawyer up and still cooperate in the interest of finding a killer. The Ramseys did nothing of the sort.
bodester413
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John and Patsy sitting in different rooms stuck out to me. The first time I read that and thought it over it seemed really strange. Some people isolate themselves when stressed , but John and Patsy doing it that morning before their daughters body had even been found just screamed something was being hidden about what happened.
Some of the things Patsy said when Burke was brought up during questioning. I would have to go back and reread the police interviews.I t's been so long since I read them..I know there where several places where I thought it seemed she was hiding something. You almost had to read between the lines.
Some of the things Patsy said when Burke was brought up during questioning. I would have to go back and reread the police interviews.I t's been so long since I read them..I know there where several places where I thought it seemed she was hiding something. You almost had to read between the lines.
BOESP,
Nobody can tell the future, including politicians. So the parents never knew what was coming. BR was moved precisely because he was toxic, the parents assumed out of sight out of mind etc?
The parents could handle all the questions, but Burke, they were not so sure, lets get him out of here. So he was gone after making his bed.
Here is LHP's take on the case: http://someoneisgettingawaywithmurder.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/death-of-innocent.html
.
IndianPaintbrush
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This is fascinating and chilling. As the housekeeper she probably knew the Ramseys' private lives better than anyone. I don't necessarily agree with her version of events, but this is a very persuasive argument for PR's cover-up.
PositiveLight
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WHY is this the first time I've heard this??? I can't believe I had not read this by now! Again..... Thank you for this post! Very interesting!!!!:thinking:
PositiveLight
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A lot of things set me off with these three.
MOO in no particular order...
JR: His lack of emotional support to his wife and son during those hours.
His demeanor changing right before she was discovered by him... getting anxious.
Not freaking out that PR had called the cops when the note specifically said not to....
"Cordial" as LA put it.
Checking mail
Making plans to fly out
Not worried when the 10 am time passed.
Not tearing the house apart and looking for daughter or clues
Not being open and helpful with the cops
Never trying to find her killer.
PR: Her fake hysteria on 911 call.
Supposedly not reading the ransom note but knew enough to make specific references in 911 call.
Not immediately grabbing her son and putting him in her lap and protecting him from the "foreign faction"
Calling friends over
Makeup in place
Hair in place
Outfit from night before still on
Allowing son to be sent to another residence.. again... foreign faction
Not seeming concerned when FW screamed for an ambulance
Not (excuse my language) BAT **** CRAZY the whole day and especially after 10am (I would've required a horse tranquilizer!)
Seeming to be in a broad way play
Honestly never seriously questioning and wondering about her son or husband's involvement Especially regarding the sexual abuse. (and every other male in her life!)
I would've ripped everyone to shreds until I found the perp. Including my husband and son! Just a mother's instinct for me personally so this is possibly me just being an over protective mama bear and questioning her reasons.
Never tried to be helpful to the cops
Never looked for her daughter's killer
BR: His smile in the Dr.Phil teaser's sets my teeth on edge. Like, I was literally grinding my teeth watching them. Something is off about that kid and I've alwayssss said that. Even in the first days he was the one I felt did it IMHO and my family was shocked I said it.... then later agreed with me that he may have been part of it if not the reason for her death.
IDK..... he just always gave me the creeps? Even though he was 9.... There have only been a few kids that did that to me... set my radar off... and it ended up as they grew older it was for a good reason. I will leave it at that. My instinct was always right about those kids and I don't see my gut instinct being wrong about him.
I can't put my finger on it but something is just not right about him. (The Bad Seed)
I will see where i am with him after all the upcoming interviews etc.
JMHO mind you and I could be wrong and I hope I am honestly.
MOO in no particular order...
JR: His lack of emotional support to his wife and son during those hours.
His demeanor changing right before she was discovered by him... getting anxious.
Not freaking out that PR had called the cops when the note specifically said not to....
"Cordial" as LA put it.
Checking mail
Making plans to fly out
Not worried when the 10 am time passed.
Not tearing the house apart and looking for daughter or clues
Not being open and helpful with the cops
Never trying to find her killer.
PR: Her fake hysteria on 911 call.
Supposedly not reading the ransom note but knew enough to make specific references in 911 call.
Not immediately grabbing her son and putting him in her lap and protecting him from the "foreign faction"
Calling friends over
Makeup in place
Hair in place
Outfit from night before still on
Allowing son to be sent to another residence.. again... foreign faction
Not seeming concerned when FW screamed for an ambulance
Not (excuse my language) BAT **** CRAZY the whole day and especially after 10am (I would've required a horse tranquilizer!)
Seeming to be in a broad way play
Honestly never seriously questioning and wondering about her son or husband's involvement Especially regarding the sexual abuse. (and every other male in her life!)
I would've ripped everyone to shreds until I found the perp. Including my husband and son! Just a mother's instinct for me personally so this is possibly me just being an over protective mama bear and questioning her reasons.
Never tried to be helpful to the cops
Never looked for her daughter's killer
BR: His smile in the Dr.Phil teaser's sets my teeth on edge. Like, I was literally grinding my teeth watching them. Something is off about that kid and I've alwayssss said that. Even in the first days he was the one I felt did it IMHO and my family was shocked I said it.... then later agreed with me that he may have been part of it if not the reason for her death.
IDK..... he just always gave me the creeps? Even though he was 9.... There have only been a few kids that did that to me... set my radar off... and it ended up as they grew older it was for a good reason. I will leave it at that. My instinct was always right about those kids and I don't see my gut instinct being wrong about him.
I can't put my finger on it but something is just not right about him. (The Bad Seed)
I will see where i am with him after all the upcoming interviews etc.
JMHO mind you and I could be wrong and I hope I am honestly.
WhoKnowsWhat
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The R's whole demeanor bothered me. Since the police were already there and half the town I would have been asking for them to bring in search DOGs. I myself would probably have been running around the neighborhood looking. I would be asked Everyone including my son and friends if they knew of anything, had heard anything that could help. I would be asking them to try to think of anything of that had happened or been said. I would have been sitting there by the phone during the hours the kidnapper was supposed to call. And when Fleet he ran up calling "call 911" I would have rushed to where JonBenet was.
this is only my second post hope ive quoted this message correctly!
bare with me ;-)
interesting i thought burkes statement at the whites.
BEFORE he had been lawyered up. he was marched from the house with a gag order about the night but a 9year old kid isnt an adult and didnt understand that previous to that night was also included in the "gag" order.
this is where he tells JBs toileting dramas where A BIG DEAL
shame the cops didnt have the hindsight of the ramsey stonewalling ahead and really really worked on him that morning!!
Sunshine4Me
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Where do I start? Everything they did. Trying to leave the state while Jonbenet's body was still in their house. Not helping the police rule them out as things were discovered. Letting Burke stay upstairs in his room while one of their kids was missing, why wouldn't they keep him within eyesight? Not asking him if he heard or saw anything, really? No reaction when the kidnapper doesn't call. Patsy looking for blood on the curtains above Jonbenet's bed, why there? John going straight for the wine cellar and seeing the body before he cut on the light. No recorded cell phone calls on Johns cell phone for the month of December, suggesting to me there was a call or more that night that "somehow" disappeared along with the entire months call history from the phone companies records. What wealthy businessman and family man goes a month without a call on his cell phone? They denied everything even innocent, easily explained things. They blamed everyone even their friends. They didn't know simple things like when was the last time they had given Jonbenet a bath. The media storm the Ramsey's made afterwards, their daughter was brutally murdered and they only cared about how the public looked at them. As if we were anyone. Find the murderer... Let me stop.
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KayCherry
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This really stood out for me - It always really bothered me that they left so quickly and didn't even work with police at that time.
DrollForeignFaction
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There are so many, but just off the top of my head:
- Patsy throwing herself over JB's body and yelling, "Lazarus, you raised Jesus from the dead, raise my baby from the dead!" What on earth?! All of Patsy's melodrama is unbelievable.
- And then there was that comment she made all drugged up about how "we didn't mean for this to happen."
- Oh yeah, and that spontaneous utterance that caught Thomas's attention while they were taking hair and blood samples: "I didn't kill my baby." Uh, who said you did, Patsy?
- the whole JonBenet Ramsey Foundation fiasco. They start a foundation in her name with no clear goal, barely put any money into it or do anything with it, but reference it all the time to look good. Didn't they start it specifically because Crimestoppers wanted them to pony up the 50 grand they were offering as a reward (because CS needs to hold onto the money so it's guaranteed to be there if/when needed) but the Rs wouldn't (guess they realized they wouldn't get it back) so CS cut ties and they started the JBR foundation and offered the reward through that. They made a big deal out of the profits from DOI going into the foundation (cough, after legal fees taken care of, of course) but the IRS didn't list any money coming in from that.
There's more, the entire page on in on acandyrose is pretty interesting. I need to reread it myself.
http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenet-foundations.htm
- Patsy throwing herself over JB's body and yelling, "Lazarus, you raised Jesus from the dead, raise my baby from the dead!" What on earth?! All of Patsy's melodrama is unbelievable.
- And then there was that comment she made all drugged up about how "we didn't mean for this to happen."
- Oh yeah, and that spontaneous utterance that caught Thomas's attention while they were taking hair and blood samples: "I didn't kill my baby." Uh, who said you did, Patsy?
- the whole JonBenet Ramsey Foundation fiasco. They start a foundation in her name with no clear goal, barely put any money into it or do anything with it, but reference it all the time to look good. Didn't they start it specifically because Crimestoppers wanted them to pony up the 50 grand they were offering as a reward (because CS needs to hold onto the money so it's guaranteed to be there if/when needed) but the Rs wouldn't (guess they realized they wouldn't get it back) so CS cut ties and they started the JBR foundation and offered the reward through that. They made a big deal out of the profits from DOI going into the foundation (cough, after legal fees taken care of, of course) but the IRS didn't list any money coming in from that.
There's more, the entire page on in on acandyrose is pretty interesting. I need to reread it myself.
http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenet-foundations.htm
fedfan4life
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The fact that everyone and his/her brother (truly no pun intended) were contacted by the parents on the morning of the incident when there was, apparently, a psycho kidnapper in the wind WITH their daughter who threatened the life of said daughter if the parents were to contact anyone. Game. Set. Match. There was no kidnapper.
PositiveLight
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amen!!!
PositiveLight
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PLUS she would be beheaded!!! WTH. Who cares let's call everyone over maybe even some helicopters (While I'm on the phone with helicopter pilots let me confirm my flight out this morning while I'm at it. (sarcasm....probably didn't happen ...but then again...the Ramsey's ...wouldn't shock me) Get some big ole batman style signals going above the house too while we are at it!
Anyone else would have been like "we need your help 911 but you better crawl your butts through the woods and come in cammo!"