DCF Worker States: Casey referred to Caylee as "that child"

[Just Jayla]

Cindy said in one of her videotaped FBI or law enforcement interviews that the boy had agreed to have nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the baby, ever, and that is why they did not go after child support. She was adamant about that. If there had been a trust fund, then Casey, on the baby's behalf, could have tried to make a claim on the guy's estate when he passed on, because by supporting the child this way, he was the presumed father. This happens all the time when a married man, quietly supports his child and his family never learns about it until they get just such a lawsuit in the mail upon his death, wanting a portion of the estate, life insurance, etc. Cindy must have forgotten about that little short notice story of Caysee's to the DCF, or she would have had a ready excuse for that to LE to add to her story about the will they had Casey sign. Right? It must be hard to keep all the lies straight! This poem hung in nursery when I was a child:

Children Learn What They Live
By Dorothy Law Nolte, Ph.D.


If children live with criticism, they learn to condemn.
If children live with hostility, they learn to fight.
If children live with fear, they learn to be apprehensive.
If children live with pity, they learn to feel sorry for themselves.
If children live with ridicule, they learn to feel shy.
If children live with jealousy, they learn to feel envy.
If children live with shame, they learn to feel guilty.
If children live with encouragement, they learn confidence.
If children live with tolerance, they learn patience.
If children live with praise, they learn appreciation.
If children live with acceptance, they learn to love.
If children live with approval, they learn to like themselves.
If children live with recognition, they learn it is good to have a goal.
If children live with sharing, they learn generosity.
If children live with honesty, they learn truthfulness.
If children live with fairness, they learn justice.
If children live with kindness and consideration, they learn respect.
If children live with security, they learn to have faith in themselves and in those about them.
If children live with friendliness, they learn the world is a nice place in which to live.

Copyright © 1972 by Dorothy Law Nolte

If you live with Cindy, you learn to be Casey!

CA also said something to the effect of 'if the father ever came back around....the A's did not want him to think he had any rights to Caylee'

Of course he would have rights! It seems that CA wanted ultimate control of KC & Caylee's lives, while KC wanted nothing to do with 'that child.' This goes to the heart of the case, as far as KC's detachment. While I agree we all can have crazy nicknames for our kids, I can see how 'that child,' used repetetively, would catch DCF's attention.

On the other hand, she refers to TL as 'that kid' a couple of times, too (texted "I really like this kid" to AH.) Maybe another KC'ism?

 

[MAMABEAR]

Honest, humble question here...can you explain to me and others WHY? you personally have ever found yourself speaking about one of your children as "that child", cause I don't get it. (The Ramsey used this term as well, countless times). Could you share your own personal reasons as to why others shouldn't read anything into statements like this. TIA.

OH--I can--I can---I have said, "That child is driving me crazy" to my friend once as the kid ran out the screened door and slamed it. Am sure there are others but the point is that you don't say stuff like that when you are being serious.

 

[Ripley007]

see my post #71

And with further reflection let me add: that child stresses to me, above all others, unlike any other,
and the child part is saying what she is to me - a precious child no matter how old she gets.

I realize that saying her name means the same thing, but somehow when I say two words: that child, or, that girl, it has more umph. It sounds stronger I guess.

I really had to think about it. I would never consider myself anyone who can easily detach!!!! Just the opposite. I even keep ex boyfriends as friends and hate to burn a bridge ever.

Thank you for addressing my question. Again, not challenging you, just trying to understand...upon reading your post #71, I'm INFERRING that "that child" you speak of is perhaps a step-child? If so, it's totally understandable that the connection you share would have a certain amount of dis-connect...But one's own flesh and blood child?...

Re: other's posts, I TOO had derogetory secret pet names for my kids as well as derogetory YET loving Aloud pet names for my kids... Difference to me is that my kids are Living. If they were dead, I can't Imagine speaking about either of them with any sort of disconnect.

 

[ziggy]

Thank you for addressing my question. Again, not challenging you, just trying to understand...upon reading your post #71, I'm INFERRING that "that child" you speak of is perhaps a step-child? If so, it's totally understandable that the connection you share would have a certain amount of dis-connect...But one's own flesh and blood child?...

Re: other's posts, I TOO had derogetory secret pet names for my kids as well as derogetory YET loving Aloud pet names for my kids... Difference to me is that my kids are Living. If they were dead, I can't Imagine speaking about either of them with any sort of disconnect.

So then you would say that an adopted child would not mean the same to one who raised him/her as their own?

It's convenient to rationalize things to fit your own opinion but that negates your open minded query.

There is no disconnect and I'm about to get all feral cat in a burlap bag on ya.

I love "that girl" more than her own mother does, that is for sure. I love her unconditionally. I love her tenderly. I love her realistically and and I have even loved her with a touch of toughness, born only of concern for her and her future relationships with others. I have a voice mail in her darling little girl voice that I've saved FOR YEARS. I just keep hitting SAVE every week.

I'm so detached.
That is how parents love. What more could there be?

 

[Ripley007]

So then you would say that an adopted child would not mean the same to one who raised him/her as their own?

It's convenient to rationalize things to fit your own opinion but that negates your open minded query.

There is no disconnect and I'm about to get all feral cat in a burlap bag on ya.

I love "that girl" more than her own mother does, that is for sure. I love her unconditionally. I love her tenderly. I love her realistically and and I have even loved her with a touch of toughness, born only of concern for her and her future relationships with others. I have a voice mail in her darling little girl voice that I've saved FOR YEARS. I just keep hitting SAVE every week.

I'm so detached.
That is how parents love. What more could there be?

Apologies, as an adopted child myself, I am sorry. I am honestly trying to understand this "lingo".

The phrase "that child" bugs me. Perhaps it shouldn't.

You sound like a wonderful mother and the child you speak of is blessed to have you in her life.

 

[ziggy]

Apologies, as an adopted child myself, I am sorry. I am honestly trying to understand this "lingo".

The phrase "that child" bugs me. Perhaps it shouldn't.

You sound like a wonderful mother and the child you speak of is blessed to have you in her life.

Thanks Ripley. I really think it has to be in context - in the whole bubble of how it is used combined with the level of emotion of the person.

Said very flatly with no real convincing emotion, as sometimes I see KC do, they may have felt that she fell flat when trying to convince them of her love for her daughter. I bet if they saw me defend my love, they would not have noticed that one bit. (probably be too busy picking fur out of their mouths

 

[Ripley007]

Thanks Ripley. I really think it has to be in context - in the whole bubble of how it is used combined with the level of emotion of the person.

Said very flatly with no real convincing emotion, as sometimes I see KC do, they may have felt that she fell flat when trying to convince them of her love for her daughter. I bet if they saw me defend my love, they would not have noticed that one bit. (probably be too busy picking fur out of their mouths

Z-I felt SO bad about upsetting you earlier...Thank you for (seemingly to have) forgiven me. :blowkiss:

Posting for friendship/like-minded kinship...

(The case that first got me interested/hobbied with missing persons/mysterious deaths was the JonBenet R. case. The "that child" phrase rubs me the wrong way due to the R's constant utterances)

 

[ziggy]

:blowkiss:

Z-I felt SO bad about upsetting you earlier...Thank you for (seemingly to have) forgiven me. :blowkiss:

Posting for friendship/like-minded kinship...

(The case that first got me interested/hobbied with missing persons/mysterious deaths was the JonBenet R. case. The "that child" phrase rubs me the wrong way due to the R's constant utterances)

:blowkiss: right back atcha!

I came here because of JonBenet too many moons ago. I couldn't see the Ramseys actions when talking of their daughter as other did. Funny how you can see things in two different ways if you want to. Personally for me, I hurt when I say my little K's name because I miss her. It's avoidance in a way of my feelings and not wanting to break down or anything when I talk about her.

You could put that in both scenarios in different ways as well. Maybe someone is feeling guilty so they don't say the name. Maybe someone is just too destroyed, so they don't say the name. Maybe someone is just cold and not in tune with what compassion and hurt are, so they don't say the name.

 

[Marina2]

So then you would say that an adopted child would not mean the same to one who raised him/her as their own?

It's convenient to rationalize things to fit your own opinion but that negates your open minded query.

There is no disconnect and I'm about to get all feral cat in a burlap bag on ya.

I love "that girl" more than her own mother does, that is for sure. I love her unconditionally. I love her tenderly. I love her realistically and and I have even loved her with a touch of toughness, born only of concern for her and her future relationships with others. I have a voice mail in her darling little girl voice that I've saved FOR YEARS. I just keep hitting SAVE every week.

I'm so detached.
That is how parents love. What more could there be?

Bolded by me.
I can soooo identify with this. I've saved a voice mail from my son for the last 7 years. I just can't bear to part with it! There's been a few times when I almost lost it to an automatic deletion. I was devastated when I thought it was gone!

Sometimes I feel silly for doing this so I was glad to read that I'm not the only one. :blowkiss:

I know what you mean about the "something extra" imparted when saying "that child". It feels that way to me when I say it.

 

[PattyCake]

You are correct!!! See page 7 - "She stated she has enjoyed working with all the agencies and volunteers looking for her child and that is going to be her new vocation in life."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/acrobat/2008-11/43228283.PDF

(link courtesy of Searchfortruth - Thanks!!)

mmmmmmm:waitasec: are you SURE she didn't say VACATION?
Does this woman think she'll ever see the light of day outside iron bars? :crazy:

 

[Ripley007]

mmmmmmm:waitasec: are you SURE she didn't say VACATION?
Does this woman think she'll ever see the light of day outside iron bars? :crazy:

Wasn't this NEW vocation George's idea??? From a jail-house interview perhaps? Like the A's 5-Fingered analogy?

 

[Searchfortruth]

Wasn't this NEW vocation George's idea??? From a jail-house interview perhaps? Like the A's 5-Fingered analogy?

IIRC, yes George brought it up in that jail conversation...what most would see as a tragedy, a hopeless situation, George and family turn into an opportunity...humm. The part where Casey tells the DCF worker that Eric contributed to a trust fund for Caylee is in the above pdf (the DCF interview at the A's home when Casey was out on bail). Didn't Cindy say that there was no support financially from the father and they went to a lawyer just to make sure he would not have ties to Caylee or something to that effect.

 

[2goldfish]

I do wonder if this is a southern affectation - PR was from GA I believe and FL obviously is southern - I wonder if the people who are taking umbrage vs the people who arent could mention where they or their mothers are from?

I have been known to use "that child" or "this child" as well - obviously mine are alive and well and I dont consider it distance, maybe dramatic as another poster said - but you know, my mother (southern) and her mother (also southern) both did so, but were both very distant - perhaps I learnt it from them and continue to use it although I wouldnt consider myself emotionally distant from my babies..knowing first and second hand the damage it causes...not the point here anyways or perhaps it is..


So maybe I am coming at it from a different perspective (a learned behaviour) but fitting the criteria you all are mentioning (distance)...or it is just a term used as emphatic in southern places?

 

[claudicici]

...mamabear,my mom is still doing it....the older she gets the more she does it.....i got divorced 3 years ago and i didn't know if i should tell her,so finally after a year i told her and her response was not to let my grandparents know and not to mention it in front of her again....

 

[Just Jayla]

I do wonder if this is a southern affectation - PR was from GA I believe and FL obviously is southern - I wonder if the people who are taking umbrage vs the people who arent could mention where they or their mothers are from?

I have been known to use "that child" or "this child" as well - obviously mine are alive and well and I dont consider it distance, maybe dramatic as another poster said - but you know, my mother (southern) and her mother (also southern) both did so, but were both very distant - perhaps I learnt it from them and continue to use it although I wouldnt consider myself emotionally distant from my babies..knowing first and second hand the damage it causes...not the point here anyways or perhaps it is..


So maybe I am coming at it from a different perspective (a learned behaviour) but fitting the criteria you all are mentioning (distance)...or it is just a term used as emphatic in southern places?

I take umbrage only because KC repeated this more than once, enough to catch DCF's attention-but then KC refers to TL as "this kid" and when PB visits her in jail, upon his exit you can hear KC tell the guards "now I know who that kid is, " so maybe she uses those terms a lot.

My mother is from Boston, my father and I from Memphis originally (have always lived in the south), and I would say that although it is not completely cut and dry down the line, the dixies might be more likely to use "child", whereas yankees might use "kid"? Make any sense? I've got "child please!" and "hey kid!" in my head all ready to go with southern and northern accents respectively!
That written, it all depends. KC still seems to have an Ohio affect, maybe from her family, I also think while she technically is a southerner, she is not culturally a southerner.

 

[eddeva]

OMG! I can't believe anyone would refer to a child by anything other than their proper name. How abusive! Children don't need pet names. They are not pets. They are human beings that deserve the respect of being called they name that has been given to them. It is, however, perfectly acceptable to add their middle name if they are in trouble. I believe that's what middle names are for anyway.

ummm, i don't want to seem rude, but are you kidding?
i remember vividly that when my eldest son was less than a year old he had a terrible cold. i was holding him in my arms, rocking him, waving a tissue w/ a little karvol on it to help clear his congestion and i can still hear myself say,' mummy's poor itsy bitsy snufflufugus' (oddly that translates to 'little snothead'). ok it was 'twee', but it certainly was NOT abusive - it was love. i'm sure i've used other little names - last night i heard a yelp from the garden, recognised it as my daughter's voice and ran out calling, 'mummy's coming darling heart.' i really don't see how i was being disrespective to her. my husband calls me sweetheart, i don't have a problem w/ that either.
now that i come to think of it, i still occasionally call my youngest 'lambkins' ... maybe you should take me out back and beat the $&!^ outta me. lol.

 

[LancelotLink]

I don't know if the DCF workers would have made note of Casey using the term that child or that kid, but for the already existing remoteness and seeming lack of affection and concern she displayed during this and prior visits.

 

[sumbunny]

ummm, i don't want to seem rude, but are you kidding?
i remember vividly that when my eldest son was less than a year old he had a terrible cold. i was holding him in my arms, rocking him, waving a tissue w/ a little karvol on it to help clear his congestion and i can still hear myself say,' mummy's poor itsy bitsy snufflufugus' (oddly that translates to 'little snothead'). ok it was 'twee', but it certainly was NOT abusive - it was love. i'm sure i've used other little names - last night i heard a yelp from the garden, recognised it as my daughter's voice and ran out calling, 'mummy's coming darling heart.' i really don't see how i was being disrespective to her. my husband calls me sweetheart, i don't have a problem w/ that either.
now that i come to think of it, i still occasionally call my youngest 'lambkins' ... maybe you should take me out back and beat the $&!^ outta me. lol.

I use little terms of endearment for my boys as well. But, if my husband or anyone called me "a little snothead" I think i'd be offended..*L*

 

[ScorpRising]

OMG! I can't believe anyone would refer to a child by anything other than their proper name. How abusive! Children don't need pet names. They are not pets. They are human beings that deserve the respect of being called they name that has been given to them. It is, however, perfectly acceptable to add their middle name if they are in trouble. I believe that's what middle names are for anyway.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion. When I get home from work and say "Hey handsome! How was your day? I missed you!" I do not believe I am being abusive to my baby. If I say "Where's the boy?" I'm not being mean toward him. He's alive, well and somewhere in the vicinity of whomever I entrusted with his care.

In my prior post (and please forgive me for not having the post number), I mentioned that I have called my son by many different names including the dog's names. That was not done on purpose but purely accidental. The day after the dogs got trimmed, my Mom was visiting and said "Carter looks like a puppy with his hair cut." I responded by saying "I'm hoping you meant Coda, not Carter."

When my friends are all together we end up calling all of our children by nicknames because there is Carter, Corey, Connor, Collin, Kyle and Cody... Imagine that for confusion if we tried to refer to the right child by the right name!

When I refer to Carter as Buzz or Lil Buzz it is because he reminds me so much of my grandfather and I welcome the opportunity to have reminders of a passed on loved one. I also refer to him by his middle name, Jacob or Jake because I know the person he was named for is looking down on us and smiling!

The nickname / pet name is not offensive to me because in my village in PA most people have a nickname of some sort.

I do have to agree that I would not refer to Carter as "that child" or "the boy" or anything but Carter and he during a professional interview, especially knowing that he may be in danger or deceased.

When Carter is in trouble he is referred to by his full name "Carter Jacob (Insert Mommy's surname)-(Insert Daddy's surname)"

 

[magic-cat]

Well seems we all have "endearing" pet names for our kids. Which I think is great.

Huge difference is that I know that not one of us would use that name in the media when our precious child is missing or dead and we are pleading for the public to help us.

This is it EXACTLY. All parents call their children various "names" that are not meant to offend or upset that might be misinterpreted by those outside the situation. BUT, and this is THE BIG ISSUE here with this "that child" remark-Casey is not just anyone. Casey is not just a mother using a term of affection for her child. Casey is a woman whose child was DEAD, not missing, and she was referring to her as "that child". This makes all the difference in the scheme of things. She was not just affectionately referring to her child, she was referring to her ALREADY DEAD child, who was PRESUMED, mistakenly, missing. This is a line so to speak, and one that she has crossed so far over that the line is no longer even visible to her! Baby Caylee was dead, and Casey was calling her "that child", which shows her total lack of affection for "that child" in my opinion. Anyone of us would be heartbroken...but then again, Casey is not just anyone of US...she is something else altogether.