Did the 'Real Killer' just commit suicide?

[Shylock]

Why would Patsy write it to cover up for an intruder? No. She wrote it to cover up for someone in her family. It's quite obvious to me.

B-I-N-G-O!

 

[sissi]

Spade...Victor was telling the truth,it is a "good cop bad cop" kind of situation,the things they say are designed to incite anger and emotion, I'm sorry you believe John's fibers were on his child's bottom. This is just kind of crap the LE has propagated. Believe this,when a cop is under oath you can expect,not necessarily get,the truth. Any other time ,as we have witnessed throughout this case,they are human with theories and assumptions to share and most of it is pure garbage. In the early days much of what they "believed" were rumors spread amongst themselves. Sadly many went "down" because of this, without this high profile case they may have kept their careers despite their lack of skills. IMO

 

[scandi]

Hi,

It seems like such a sad case because nothing seems to go full circle in completing facts. Provable facts that can be used to catch the real killer.

Since I know so little about the case, but over the years have heard a lot about it on the news, it brings some thoughs to mind:

The crime scene was compromised I think - not controlled. Do you think this was a ploy on the part of someone trying to help the killer so he would be impossible to detect?

Is it possible that if the son was involved in her murder, John did pay off city officials to have them throw away evidence or substitue different sperm from that which was really on her? Really, not suspecting it to happen, it might not be that hard to accomplish with the right person doing the exchange.

To me it seems if the sperm {DNA} does not belong to any man involved in the case, it had to be substituted. Except if an intruder did this, but it seems or has been presented as a 'family' crime - someone knew that tucked away little room was down there and so had to be familiar with the home. That says no intruder to me.

It could be possible that one of the family had a friend who had been there before and was caught by one of the family members sexually abusing her. If this person was doing this with the son in attendance they would cover it up simply to pretect their son, right?

The son somehow looks suspicious to me only through possibilities, and was heard on the 911 tape. Did they do a voice test to determine it was him? I don't think he would molest her at 9 years old, but might have helped in aiding the one who did. Then if the parents heard the noise and screams and came running down, John could use his shirt in a moment of panic to wipe her off thinking it would obliterate evidence. Then Patsy could write the note. They would have to get the real killer out of the house quickly, right, to give time to get away as the police would then be called and on their way.

I remember in a special the detective determined the basement window had not been used as a point of entry. Maybe whoever killed her was let in the home by the son!

Gosh, I feel so bad thinking this about a little 9 year old boy. Was he spoiled, revengeful, normal and bright, mean, jealous of Jon Bennet - caught up in peer preasure on learning how to become a man and so used by someone?

So much to learn! Now don't laugh at me I'm a bit worried that all of these thoughts have been hashed and rehashed here years ago!


Scandi

PS: Interesting posters over here on this forum :clap:

 

[Maikai]

But what about the DNA that doesn't match?

Boots died in 2/97......when was he on anyone's radar screen and how long did the coroner's office keep tissue and blood samples to test? Apparently no one, including the Sheriff's Department suspected a connection soon after Boots dies. Did they really compare any DNA?

If it didn't match, then it's still possible Boots could have been involved somehow, according to the NE. The butler door was open, and a perp also left via the basement window. If there was more than one, it might explain two possible exit points.

 

[Shylock]

Is it possible that if the son was involved in her murder, John did pay off city officials to have them throw away evidence or substitue different sperm from that which was really on her?

Scandi, you have a bit of catching up to do. There was no "sperm" found on her. The "mystery " DNA doesn't have an identifiable source. It just showed up as a shadow when the blood spots in her panties were tested. It might not even exist at all--just being a product of the testing process itself. That's why Dr. Lee said this is not a DNA case.
Or it might be from a worker who made the panties. The police tested new panties right out of the package and found DNA on them.

 

[Shylock]

Did they really compare any DNA?
If it didn't match, then it's still possible Boots could have been involved somehow, according to the NE.

Somebody at the NE should come up with a good story as to why Patsy wrote the note to help Mr. Boots....

 

[Tricia]

Scandi, you have a bit of catching up to do. There was no "sperm" found on her. The "mystery " DNA doesn't have an identifiable source. It just showed up as a shadow when the blood spots in her panties were tested. It might not even exist at all--just being a product of the testing process itself. That's why Dr. Lee said this is not a DNA case.
Or it might be from a worker who made the panties. The police tested new panties right out of the package and found DNA on them.

Shylock if anyone can do this you can. Can you find the quote of Dr. Lee's that says, "This is not a DNA case?" I swear I heard him say it but I'll be darned if I can find it.
Thanks
Tricia

 

[lisafremont]

And it all comes down, in my mind, to the "ransom" letter (hardly a note). If you are convinced, as I am, through my eyes and simple logic, that it was written by Patsy Ramsey, then you cannot possibly believe there was an intruder in the house. In no scenario that makes sense would Patsy write that letter for a stranger. She would only create it as a ruse to protect someone she loves. Therefore, there was no intruder. The perp was named Ramsey, IMO

S-I-M-P-L-E!

 

[Barbara]

Boots died in 2/97......when was he on anyone's radar screen and how long did the coroner's office keep tissue and blood samples to test? Apparently no one, including the Sheriff's Department suspected a connection soon after Boots dies. Did they really compare any DNA?

Well, Makai, if we go by your logic, then we don't know for sure that the Ramseys' DNA was compared either. Now you are just grasping at straws, trying to negate the facts by stating they lied about testing it. If they lied about testing it, then it is also possible the Ramseys DNA is in question. You can't have it both ways at your convenience

If it didn't match, then it's still possible Boots could have been involved somehow, according to the NE.

Now we are going by the NE statements? Now we have one NE article supporting the Ramseys and they are credible? So what about the other umpteen NE stories implicating the Ramseys? They are either credible or they aren't. Again, you can't have it both ways

The butler door was open, and a perp also left via the basement window. If there was more than one, it might explain two possible exit points

So now we have a team of murderers with nothing more than degraded DNA left behind? We also don't have any reason to believe that the basement window was used to enter or exit. Lou Smit's performance was poor at best and only proved that it would be impossible to enter or exit through there without leaving anything behind.

BTW, the perp/s never left at all

Try as you might, this story is bullchit no matter how hard it is spun!

 

[Maikai]

Well, Makai, if we go by your logic, then we don't know for sure that the Ramseys' DNA was compared either. Now you are just grasping at straws, trying to negate the facts by stating they lied about testing it. If they lied about testing it, then it is also possible the Ramseys DNA is in question. You can't have it both ways at your convenience

I don't know if Beckner lied about testing it----I'm suggesting that just because it was printed in the paper doesn't mean it's true. How long does the coroner's office hang on to blood and tissue samples? If Helgoth wasn't even on the radar screen after he committed suicide, there would be no reason to compare his DNA with that found at the crime scene. So when would Beckner have tested it? They didn't even send the DNA found at the crime scene to Cellmark until 2/97. They had the CBI results and it was either inconclusive or they didn't like the results (ie: no Ramsey DNA). The newspaper articles at the time had the police ready to make an arrest when they got the DNA results back--they were convinced it was JR's. There's no doubt they tested the Ramseys DNA----not so sure on Boots.


Now we are going by the NE statements? Now we have one NE article supporting the Ramseys and they are credible? So what about the other umpteen NE stories implicating the Ramseys? They are either credible or they aren't. Again, you can't have it both ways

I'm not saying the NE is credible....but once in a while they get it right.

So now we have a team of murderers with nothing more than degraded DNA left behind? We also don't have any reason to believe that the basement window was used to enter or exit. Lou Smit's performance was poor at best and only proved that it would be impossible to enter or exit through there without leaving anything behind.

BTW, the perp/s never left at all

Try as you might, this story is bullchit no matter how hard it is spun!

Some of the DNA was degraded---that's not surprising, because it degrades faster when exposed to other bodily fluids. They do have good DNA with l0 markers---just a shame that it wasn't send to the databases until this last December. You can't argue with Smit's track record in solving cold cases or expertise in organizing evidence. There were signs of an intruder at the basement window--he doesn't have all the answers, but clearly there were signs of an intruder.

 

[Barbara]

"..I don't know if Beckner lied about testing it----I'm suggesting that just because it was printed in the paper doesn't mean it's true."

One would think that blatantly lying regarding a personal quote from Beckner would not go without a response from LE and a retraction for something so important. There are lots of things printed in the paper that may or may not be true. However, I don't recall your statement when the papers printed articles that favored the Ramseys. How do we know that those things are also true? Again, double standards Maikai. If for no other reason than to placate the RST, I am sure the DNA was tested.

"...You can't argue with Smit's track record in solving cold cases or expertise in organizing evidence. There were signs of an intruder at the basement window--he doesn't have all the answers, but clearly there were signs of an intruder."

When you pull apart Smit's record, while good, it's not as impressive as you might like to think. Regardless, there are NO signs of an intruder at the basement window. Think about it logically.

WHY WAS THE FILM OF SMIT'S ENTERING THE WINDOW EDITED? WHY DIDN'T WE SEE THE WHOLE THING FROM START TO FINISH?

There are no signs of an intruder, save for Smit's, try as he might, poor demonstration. It's not clear at all.

The only people who have ALL the answers are the Ramseys and they ain't sayin'!

 

[Ivy]

We didn't see the footage of Smit entering the window because we would have seen his hiney scooting across the window sill, disturbing dust and debris, the same way the intruder's hiney would have, had there really been an intruder.

The fact that the footage was edited proves that Smit can't handle the truth, and that even though, as he's been quoted as saying, he'd slap handcuffs on Jesus Christ if that's where the evidence led him in a case, he will fudge the evidence if that's what it takes to exonerate John and Patsy Ramsey.

imo

 

[Barbara]

We didn't see the footage of Smit entering the window because we would have seen his hiney scooting across the window sill, disturbing dust and debris, the same way the intruder's hiney would have, had there really been an intruder.

The fact that the footage was edited proves that Smit can't handle the truth, and that even though, as he's been quoted as saying, he'd slap handcuffs on Jesus Christ if that's where the evidence led him in a case, he will fudge the evidence if that's what it takes to exonerate John and Patsy Ramsey.

imo

Let's face it. While Smit may have started this crusade with the best of intentions, he now is totally caught up in it. This is a man who also, like the Ramseys, perpetuates his Christian beliefs. However, let's not forget that in order to keep evidence later used in his powerpoint presentation, he had to cut a deal with Hunter. He would keep his mouth shut about Hunter's wrongdoings, and Hunter would drop the case against Smit. This deal is a fact. There is no denying this. Why do I bring this up?

Because a GOOD Christian and a GOOD cop would never cut a deal to benefit himself at the expense of letting wrongful activities go unpunished and unreported. So much for Lou Smit's Christianity and law enforcement morality.

Bottom line: Lou is a cop and they don't like to look foolish and be proven wrong. He backpedaled on the stun gun already, and would be a total laughing stock if he fessed up now that he is in error on many more issues.

It's too late for Lou.

 

[Barbara]

It seems there is an answer after all to my initial question: From Webbsleuths:


Jameson quotes me:

Barbara asked, "WHY WAS THE FILM OF SMIT'S ENTERING THE WINDOW EDITED? WHY DIDN'T WE SEE THE WHOLE THING FROM START TO FINISH?"

Her answer:

Time - - time - - time. the documentaries work hard to get in as much information as they can in the allotted time.

What a croc! When you are presenting what is labeled as EVIDENCE of an intruder, you cut time somewhere else, not during evidence presentation.

That is not the right answer, so we must assume there is another explanation.

 

[Barbara]

AND ANOTHER GEM in response to why we haven't heard about Helgoth as a VIABLE suspect in more than 7 years:

Jameson:

You may not have heard much about Helgoth over the past 7 years but I have. Many times from several sources.

Are you really expecting the forum public to consider what information and sources YOU have over LE? Who are you kidding? Where were your protestations when his DNA didn't match?

 

[Maikai]

One would think that blatantly lying regarding a personal quote from Beckner would not go without a response from LE and a retraction for something so important.

Lolololol....when did the BPD ever ask for a retraction to somthing that was printed? Particularly if it was harmful to the Ramseys? If the blood and tissue samples had been discarded when all this came to light, what was Beckner going to say that the BPD wouldn't get slammed for?

 

[Barbara]

Lolololol....when did the BPD ever ask for a retraction to somthing that was printed? Particularly if it was harmful to the Ramseys? If the blood and tissue samples had been discarded when all this came to light, what was Beckner going to say that the BPD wouldn't get slammed for?

It was never disputed period. There were enough talking head shows where this point would have been made, had it not been true. But hey, whatever works for you and the others Maikai.

Rationalization is everything I guess.

 

[sissi]

I hesitate to ask Scandi to "catch up",since we don't really know which of the "facts" thrown at us are true. Early on,the sperm story was sent out to the media,the source was the BPD,it was later "fixed". I can't imagine how such an error was made, was it an early wrong assumption ,followed by later errors that weren't "caught" and retracted? Or was it a truth they wanted to take away from the public?
Who knows,it's not among the current "things we think we know" ,however,much of what we think we know are lies.
JMO

 

[Ivy]

The rumor about semen being found on JonBenet's body probably started when Arndt thought she saw indications of it. Although tests later showed no semen was present, rumors die hard, even when the truth has been publicized...which it was, thanks to LE, immediately following the tests.

December 27, 1996 Search Warrant Page 3: (excerpt)

"In the presence of Det. Arndt, Det. Tom Trujillo of the Boulder Police Department, used a black florescent light the view the body including the pubic area of the victim in an attempt to observe the possible presence of semen or seminal fluid. (Your Affiant knows from previous experience and training that substances such as semen or seminal fluid, not visible to the unaided eye, may become visible when viewed under a black florescent light). Det. Arndt stated that she observed florescent areas of the upper inner and outer left thigh, as well as the upper and inner right thigh. Det. Arndt stated that her observations of the result of the black florescent light observation is consistent with the presence of semen or seminal fluid."

January 30, 1997 Search Warrant (excerpt)

"Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer swab these florescent areas. Dr. Meyer was also observed by Det. Arndt to obtain vaginal, oral and anal swabs from the child's body. (According to examination conducted at the Colorado Bureau of Investigations, no semen was located on the body, panties, or clothing of JonBenet Ramsey)."

~~~
imo

 

[scandi]

Morning,

I read several threads here yesterday, and naturally found many of my thoughts addressed! I was horrified to learn the condition of her body, the feces scenario in the home, how John had moved her body in the wine cellar and about the Inuoye teen. I only read his name once, and am curious if he was checked out thoroughly?

I am amazed at the continual stalemate status of this case! The evidence is not clear or can not be connected difinitavely, like the note and the Det Arndt saying she spotted semen, and it turned out to be blood { I read there was blood on her upper thighs}. Almost like something could have been switched? Would someone dare do that, especially on the same day or within such a short time of the body being found?

The body wasn't found for what, 12 or so hours? Was there a roar about why the parents didn't know where she was all that time? Crazy, huh!

Hi SieSie - Looked for you on chat yesterday as I saw your name up, but must have missed you! :blowkiss:



Scandi