FL - Sara Morales, 35, shot dead by motorcyclist she hit with car, Orange City, 20 Nov 2021

[BeginnerSleuther]

I am not sure how anybody can know how minor an accident is when they don't stop and look at the vehicles. Regardless, you can't just "tap" a motorcyclist with your car. A car vs a motorcycle, a car is a deadly weapon.

It has also been reported that the men were strangers, they did not know each other. The other two people saw what happened and were acting as good samaritans. I believe they were trying to get her to pull over so they could exchange insurance information. What other choice did she leave anybody? She refused to pull over and he swent home. It's not like they were pounding on her door. They were in the street. She could have stayed inside and waited for LE.

There are always choices. All parties made poor decisions. IMO, I disagree with the results of the investigation (and I have read the law; I still disagree). But I'm not going to get back into it since nothing's going to change. I just believe that the men were the aggressors from the moment they began following her home. The fact that she started as the aggressor doesn't justify their actions. MOO.

 

[Laughing]

There are always choices. All parties made poor decisions. IMO, I disagree with the results of the investigation (and I have read the law; I still disagree). But I'm not going to get back into it since nothing's going to change. I just believe that the men were the aggressors from the moment they began following her home. The fact that she started as the aggressor doesn't justify their actions. MOO.

And, I'll restate that if the motorcycle rider remained in control & upright after the "hit," well, I seriously doubt that any "hit" occurred. Tap. brush, maybe, and yes are still contact -- but as a poster upthread stated the car is the larger, heavier vehicle.

If the car indeed "hit" the much smaller motorcycle, how does the motorcycle continue forward? Much like a pool ball, the motorcycle would be pushed directly away from the car at the moment of impact. Any video? Photographs of the car or the motorcycle with body damage, scuffs, paint rub?

The driver of the car is not available to tell their side of the story.

Poor decisions all around, starting with the initial report of the motorcycle traveling at a high rate of speed.

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[GatorFL]

There are always choices. All parties made poor decisions. IMO, I disagree with the results of the investigation (and I have read the law; I still disagree). But I'm not going to get back into it since nothing's going to change. I just believe that the men were the aggressors from the moment they began following her home. The fact that she started as the aggressor doesn't justify their actions. MOO.

I know we don't agree on this one. I also agree there were many poor decisions. Some poorer than others. It astounds me that a simple traffic accident escalates all the way up to somebody getting shot.

The two other men were independent witnesses who saw Sara swerve at Derr, not buddies of his. They decided after seeing that they would try and help. So I don't think it is fair to consider them aggressors at all, more like good samaritans.

I think the best write up I read which includes the two other men is from the Daytona Beach News-Journal: Biker says Volusia library worker pointed gun at him before she was fatally shot; witnesses say she waved gun

After re-reading that article I think the cops decided not to press charges on Sara's mother for brandishing because of the tragedy.

 

[GatorFL]

And, I'll restate that if the motorcycle rider remained in control & upright after the "hit," well, I seriously doubt that any "hit" occurred. Tap. brush, maybe, and yes are still contact -- but as a poster upthread stated the car is the larger, heavier vehicle.

If the car indeed "hit" the much smaller motorcycle, how does the motorcycle continue forward? Much like a pool ball, the motorcycle would be pushed directly away from the car at the moment of impact. Any video? Photographs of the car or the motorcycle with body damage, scuffs, paint rub?

The driver of the car is not available to tell their side of the story.

Poor decisions all around, starting with the initial report of the motorcycle traveling at a high rate of speed.

jmho ymmv lrr

Well, the published news reports noted a scuff mark on the saddlebags:

"The traffic dispute escalated when Morales swerved her car at the biker, the report said. Her vehicle struck the motorcycle’s saddlebags, leaving a scuff mark and almost causing the biker to wreck, according to the report."

Biker says Volusia library worker pointed gun at him before she was fatally shot; witnesses say she waved gun

Andrew Derr says Sara-Nicole Morales pointed a gun at him. Two men say she waved gun after three men followed her home in road rage incident.

www.news-journalonline.com

MOO, if Derr was swerving the same way as her he could have swung wide enough to get hit but stay upright.

Growing up in Daytona I saw a lot of crazy things happen on bikes, including 1 fatality. The fatality I just saw the aftermath, before the ambulance arrived. 2 guys on a crotch ticket were driving through a parking lot and a car pulled in front of them. They were both ejected. The passenger on the back didn't have a helmet and his head hit the curb. LOTS of blood. He died on the spot. Another time I was going home at night after work and a biker didn't have an operable headlight. He broadsided a car who turned into his path. The bike hit the car and he was thrown over it. It was the only time I've seen a person fly through the air like that. He hit the asphalt and was bloodied from head to toe, but he lived. Probably had a painful couple of weeks. I pulled over to help and to give a statement. The car had a lot of damage to the right front fender. The bike, somehow, was practically unscathed. IIRC all that happened was the brake handle was bent to a weird angle. They drove it right up the wrecker.

 

[Laughing]

Thanks, @GatorFL , forgot that the media did state scuff marks.

Two of my husband's riding buddies are state troopers who are military veterans. I've talked about this case with them, shared some of the media reports. Both are glad this wasn't their case as accident investigators or criminal investigators. One teaches accident investigation. A car changing lanes legally into a vehicle in their blind spot could be reported as a "swerve." That trooper wants to see the motorcycle & the car and yes the streets. Also the complete driving record of the driver, the shooter & both followers.

As criminal investigators, neither considers the grandmother or the child OR the two followers reliable witnesses. They're not convinced that the shooter & witnesses actually stayed on the pavement/public property after reaching the residence.

Did the shooter or the followers crouch or drop when Morales came out with the pistol, indicating they thought she was a threat? Was the shooter's pistol in a tank bag or saddlebag, or did he wear a holster? When did he unholster?

They also don't like reading that that shooter fired so many rounds. They agree that different methods are taught, but once the perceived threat was on the ground did he continue to fire?

Lots of poor decisions and lots of questions.

In the end, a tragedy with many moving parts & many lessons for readers, and another lively & enjoyable discussion on Websleuths!

Best, Laughing

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[GatorFL]

Thanks, @GatorFL , forgot that the media did state scuff marks.

Two of my husband's riding buddies are state troopers who are military veterans. I've talked about this case with them, shared some of the media reports. Both are glad this wasn't their case as accident investigators or criminal investigators. One teaches accident investigation. A car changing lanes legally into a vehicle in their blind spot could be reported as a "swerve." That trooper wants to see the motorcycle & the car and yes the streets. Also the complete driving record of the driver, the shooter & both followers.

As criminal investigators, neither considers the grandmother or the child OR the two followers reliable witnesses. They're not convinced that the shooter & witnesses actually stayed on the pavement/public property after reaching the residence.

Did the shooter or the followers crouch or drop when Morales came out with the pistol, indicating they thought she was a threat? Was the shooter's pistol in a tank bag or saddlebag, or did he wear a holster? When did he unholster?

They also don't like reading that that shooter fired so many rounds. They agree that different methods are taught, but once the perceived threat was on the ground did he continue to fire?

Lots of poor decisions and lots of questions.

In the end, a tragedy with many moving parts & many lessons for readers, and another lively & enjoyable discussion on Websleuths!

Best, Laughing

jmho ymmv lrr

Lots of info at the News Journal link which might give them a better feel. It's the local paper in the area.

Couple comments based upon your post: you'd have to read the witness accounts to get a better understanding of the swerve. It appeared to be aggressive. Sara and Andrew both had a prior traffic infraction, nothing major. Don't know about the witnesses.

By all accounts it appears Sara came out of the house to near the edge of the street to accost the men.

She was waving her boyfriend's gun and when she pointed it, Derr drew his firearm and struck her. IDK how he had it concealed but one of the witnesses said he didn't know Derr was carrying, which is one of the requirements of Florida's concealed carry law. If people can see it, it is not concealed. I'd guess an inside the waistband holster if I had to.

In the concealed carry class I attended, my instructor advised to shoot as many rounds as it takes to neutralize the threat. I'd guess that's what Derr did here.

As an aside, I contacted an attorney who wrote a book about concealed carry laws about this case early on. I am happy to share the correspondence with the moderators. He pretty much said both made a bunch of poor decisions but that Derr had the right to follow her and he had the right to use justifiable force when she waved the gun at him.

Society is in a pretty sad state when a minor traffic accident escalates to death by gunshot for one of those involved.

 

[Razz]

Lots of info at the News Journal link which might give them a better feel. It's the local paper in the area.

Couple comments based upon your post: you'd have to read the witness accounts to get a better understanding of the swerve. It appeared to be aggressive. Sara and Andrew both had a prior traffic infraction, nothing major. Don't know about the witnesses.

By all accounts it appears Sara came out of the house to near the edge of the street to accost the men.

She was waving her boyfriend's gun and when she pointed it, Derr drew his firearm and struck her. IDK how he had it concealed but one of the witnesses said he didn't know Derr was carrying, which is one of the requirements of Florida's concealed carry law. If people can see it, it is not concealed. I'd guess an inside the waistband holster if I had to.

In the concealed carry class I attended, my instructor advised to shoot as many rounds as it takes to neutralize the threat. I'd guess that's what Derr did here.

As an aside, I contacted an attorney who wrote a book about concealed carry laws about this case early on. I am happy to share the correspondence with the moderators. He pretty much said both made a bunch of poor decisions but that Derr had the right to follow her and he had the right to use justifiable force when she waved the gun at him.

Society is in a pretty sad state when a minor traffic accident escalates to death by gunshot for one of those involved.

GatorFlorida- Even your reply/text was prejudicial. "When she came to the street of the street to accost the men". Really?! She didn't even have bullets in the gun. True BD did not know that but how can she accost 3 men who chased her, tried to stop her, followed her to her home and stood at her property line. She was protecting herself , her child and mother and her property. (Rather poorly I fear). They should have stopped at the entrance onto her road (dirt) and waited there. But let 's be clear, they were the ones who accosted her.

 

[GatorFL]

GatorFlorida- Even your reply/text was prejudicial. "When she came to the street of the street to accost the men". Really?! She didn't even have bullets in the gun. True BD did not know that but how can she accost 3 men who chased her, tried to stop her, followed her to her home and stood at her property line. She was protecting herself , her child and mother and her property. (Rather poorly I fear). They should have stopped at the entrance onto her road (dirt) and waited there. But let 's be clear, they were the ones who accosted her.

What was prejudicial about what I said? That is what happened. Even if the traffic situation was accidental, she chose not to stop at the scene. She chose to drive home instead of the sheriff's substation down the street. She chose to exit her house to accost the men. She could have stayed inside, they were a reasonable distance away. This was all her doing.

I think her gun had bullets in it. The mother's gun did not.

Again, there were 2 investigations into this and she was found to be the aggressor, not AD, both times.

By the way, if it was found Derr had started it and he ultimately shot her, I believe he would have lost protection under the use of justifiable force law.

 

[Razz]

What was prejudicial about what I said? That is what happened. Even if the traffic situation was accidental, she chose not to stop at the scene. She chose to drive home instead of the sheriff's substation down the street. She chose to exit her house to accost the men. She could have stayed inside, they were a reasonable distance away. This was all her doing.

I think her gun had bullets in it. The mother's gun did not.

Again, there were 2 investigations into this and she was found to be the aggressor, not AD, both times.

By the way, if it was found Derr had started it and he ultimately shot her, I believe he would have lost protection under the use of justifiable force law.

This is what is so unfortunate about this. We don't have her side off the story
How do we know BD didn't give a quick show of his weapon? He rode alongside of her "jawing at her" before she turned and scuffed his saddlebag. I don't believe the report will say she accosted these men!
Maybe I'll see if I can get the report. But I think we're looking for one out of the DA's office. Anyone know how I go about that?

 

[DFWNF]

GatorFlorida- Even your reply/text was prejudicial. "When she came to the street of the street to accost the men". Really?! She didn't even have bullets in the gun. True BD did not know that but how can she accost 3 men who chased her, tried to stop her, followed her to her home and stood at her property line. She was protecting herself , her child and mother and her property. (Rather poorly I fear). They should have stopped at the entrance onto her road (dirt) and waited there. But let 's be clear, they were the ones who accosted her.

I am reading back previous posts, not just the one I am quoting. They accosted her? And they knew each other, and were basically an outlaw biker gang, and did not stop at the road? Apologies I am just catching up. If I am wrong, please post. Not at all what I understood. I am not a gun owner but if my husband or children or friends or myself were in what allegedly happened from media reports, or if I was simply a witness, you're damn skippy I would have followed the individual. Jmo

 

[Laughing]

Well, living in a state where concealed carry is A-OK, please don't guess what is in my purse on any given day.

But -- there is always a cell phone there, and I know how to use the camera. A snapped photo of a vehicle's license plate and a snapped photo of scuffed motorcycle sidebag and the statements of 2 witnesses would likely have resulted in justice rather than death.

IMHO more people carry cell phone than carry pistols.

No matter what happened in traffic -- pulling into the sheriff's department and honking until deputies came out would have been a really, really good idea in this situation.

@GatorFL & I see this event a bit differently, but Gator has good command of the facts & is using them well.

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[GatorFL]

This is what is so unfortunate about this. We don't have her side off the story
How do we know BD didn't give a quick show of his weapon? He rode alongside of her "jawing at her" before she turned and scuffed his saddlebag. I don't believe the report will say she accosted these men!
Maybe I'll see if I can get the report. But I think we're looking for one out of the DA's office. Anyone know how I go about that?

You've obviously never carried a concealed weapon. You're not reholstering it after you pulled it while riding a motorcycle. The only possible way that could have happened is if he had a fanny pack and the gun was in there. Most .45's are pretty big so it would have to be a big fanny pack. I did not see a fanny pack in the police video, but admittedly it would have been hard to see a black fanny pack against his dark clothing.

I'd suggest you look at the video where the PD detain Derr, pretty clear he was far from her house and she was only about 10-15' away from him when she was shot. There's another video of her parents pointing to the spot where she died and it's far from her house. She definitely accosted them.

If you read all the press releases from Orange City PD and the DA's office, they all said she was the aggressor.

You may not like it but fact is, she lost her life because she accosted these men with a firearm.

 

[GatorFL]

I am reading back previous posts, not just the one I am quoting. They accosted her? And they knew each other, and were basically an outlaw biker gang, and did not stop at the road? Apologies I am just catching up. If I am wrong, please post. Not at all what I understood. I am not a gun owner but if my husband or children or friends or myself were in what allegedly happened from media reports, or if I was simply a witness, you're damn skippy I would have followed the individual. Jmo

They did not know each other. The guy in the truck and the other guy (said to be riding a moped) were simply good samaritans who saw her hit Derr's motorcycle with her car and they tried to get her to pull over. They were not a biker gang.

 

[DFWNF]

Thanks GatorFL that's what I thought. Some posts stating otherwise confused me.

 

[GatorFL]

Well, living in a state where concealed carry is A-OK, please don't guess what is in my purse on any given day.

But -- there is always a cell phone there, and I know how to use the camera. A snapped photo of a vehicle's license plate and a snapped photo of scuffed motorcycle sidebag and the statements of 2 witnesses would likely have resulted in justice rather than death.

IMHO more people carry cell phone than carry pistols.

No matter what happened in traffic -- pulling into the sheriff's department and honking until deputies came out would have been a really, really good idea in this situation.

@GatorFL & I see this event a bit differently, but Gator has good command of the facts & is using them well.

jmho ymmv lrr

I would probably see it differently if I had not been through concealed weapons training. Since I grew up in the area and I know the specific laws which apply in this case I feel like I have a good grasp of what transpired.

 

[wary]

Note that a photograph of a license plate doesn’t prove who’s driving the car, and how do you know that it isn’t a stolen car?

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Note that a photograph of a license plate doesn’t prove who’s driving the car, and how do you know that it isn’t a stolen car?

Eyewitness identification? They all saw her, supposedly. I don't know, but 3 men chasing one woman to her home is something that should never happen in a case like this. You get the plate, you let law enforcement do their thing.

 

[Catmommy]

If the reports are accurate: she started it, she escalated it and she ended it - with her life. Everything that happened was, at some point, in her power to go differently. We are responsible for our choices, actions and their consequences. This is the lesson to be learned here. It's way past the could've, should've, would've parts.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

If the reports are accurate: she started it, she escalated it and she ended it - with her life. Everything that happened was, at some point, in her power to go differently. We are responsible for our choices, actions and their consequences. This is the lesson to be learned here. It's way past the could've, should've, would've parts.

Yes and the men made choices too and they are responsible for taking a life. Whether criminally or not, they were responsible for their own actions and the end of a life. MOO.

 

[Cryptic]

I just believe that the men were the aggressors from the moment they began following her home. 3 men chasing one woman to her home is something that should never happen in a case like this.

Well said.

And now the big, bad, "buts"....

The points that you are expressing are Common Law based (In our society, people just don't do "X").

In the past, our judicial thought was Roman Law based (unlawful actions are clearly codified as such) with a noticeable addition of Common Law concepts based on long standing social norms.

The Common Law elements of our judicial thought, however, have been in sharp decline in recent generations. This leaves nearly all Roman Law application today.

As expressed by yourself and others, the Common Law applications in this case are:
- Biker dudes don't engage in mutual "one upping" contests with women over a minor traffic dispute.
- Biker dudes don't follow a woman home over a minor matter- end, full stop, period.

But, the present day near removal of the Common Law application leaves the pure Roman Law application of:

- Is arguing with a woman (or anybody else) over a traffic matter illegal? Yes / No
- Is following a woman (or anybody else) home illegal? Yes / No.

As both are "No", it makes criminal charges less likely today.

In the past, however, your points could well have been been accepted and applied by most jurors, prosecutors, judges, appellate courts etc. I accept your points. But.... I am afraid that we are a minority of present day potential jurors, judges, prosecutors.