For a relative newbie to this case

[Wudge]

wudge,

SNIP

where was pr's decency when jbr died.

You question "assumes" that Patsy was involved in Jon Benet's murder and, thereafter, that she did not do some "decent" act. You seem to be stuck on representing your assumption/conjecture to be fact.

Based on case facts, only the Ramsey and God can "know" (100% certainty) if one or more of the Ramsey's were involved in Jon Benet's murder. The rest of us mere mortals must deal with assessing facts/evidence to size the probability of that possibility.

"Proof beyond a reasonable doubt" is one such measure. I size that hurdle as not having been breached. Along with many other people, a Grand Jury, a retired and well respected homicide detective, a Federal judge and Boulder's D.A, see it that way too.

 

[Seeker]

Excuse my ignorance. I'm from New Jersey, where the traditional Christmas colors and red & green, and where people wear a variety of colors on Christmas day.

"1st it was x-mas and the traditional colors for the season seem to be black, red, & white" sounds like one a dem dere "logical fallacies" to me.

Maybe you missed that word I just bolded....out here in the West it seems the traditional colors are black, white, & red like Santa's suit, like the majority of holiday decorations, and candy canes seem to be...

 

[wenchie]

I didn't miss your bolded part. You said those colors "seem to be" the traditional colors for clothing on Christmas. I countered with the fact that where I come from, this is not the case.

I don't know of any place where this is the case, either.

Your implication is that MOST people would be wearing those colors on Christmas day.

If that wasn't what you meant to imply, what was your point?

You were defending the fibers found on Jonbenet as NOT specifically being from Patsy.

 

[Wudge]

Thanks for the laughs Wudge. Speaking of conjecture, you may want to correct your own fallacy.

The saying you muddled up is "you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear". The other is "you cannot spin gold out of straw".

Thank you, (chuckle), but I have long said it that way, on purpose. I do that, because when you change old sayings up a little bit, you often wake up the mind's of many in your audience.

Nevertheless, unless I am mistaken, no one has yet spun gold from either source. Ergo, no matter how you like such sayings, the statement is not a logically fallacy in either form. It is true.

Though you didn't score well in logic, you get an A+ for attentiveness. (chuckle)

 

[BeeBee]

I didn't miss your bolded part. You said those colors "seem to be" the traditional colors for clothing on Christmas. I countered with the fact that where I come from, this is not the case.

I don't know of any place where this is the case, either.

Your implication is that MOST people would be wearing those colors on Christmas day.

If that wasn't what you meant to imply, what was your point?

You were defending the fibers found on Jonbenet as NOT specifically being from Patsy.

No need to nit pick. Christmas time is a time when a lot of people wear colorful clothes. Look around if your at a mall. Red, Green, Black, White, seem to be the colors most worn. A great friend of mine sent me pajama's for Christmas. Bright red and black and white. I've worn them the last 2 Christmas's. I save them just for that holiday. I think Seeker is just saying people tend to dress colorful during the Christmas season.

 

[Hbgchick]

hbgchick,
i respectfully ask you to give me some evidence that patsy was not involved in the cover up.
thanks,
ellen

I can't. Just like nobody can give me any evidence that she was. The difference is that I never claimed to have any.

I am not a "believer" or a "disbeliever" in the Ramseys guilt or innocence. I just wonder how people can be so adamant that she/they were guilty, when everything I have read (hang on SuperDave, I'm getting to you! ) is speculation.

 

[Hbgchick]

"I used to think PDI a long, long time ago, but then as I learned more and more I saw that most, if not all of the "evidence info" that we got all seemed to come from the same source. A source, IMO that is completely biased against Patsy all while giving John a complete pass."

I don't remember Mike Kane giving him a pass!

"It sounds like your asking for a "smoking gun" in this case .... there isn't one."

There isn't one in a lot of cases. You'd be pretty hard pressed to find a case where it all clicked as kosher as in Hollywood movies.

"So now it's guilty until proven innocent?"

I didn't say that.

"I saw two very vicious posts regarding Steve Thomas in the thread about his new baby. Hmmm, RDIs abstained from posting mean things in the memorial thread for Patsy, but nonRDIs weren't able to do the same in a thread about Thomas's new baby. Talk about lack of decency..."

No kidding. A little consistency would be nice.

"Quite right. They tried. They did not succeed."

Tell you what, hbgchick: you tell me what you need, and I promise I'll do my best to give it to you.

"BTW Patsy's sweater was reportedly red, black and grey and there were no grey fibers found that we know about, just red and black ones."

That was her jacket, not the sweater she wore. In fact, she slipped up and said "sweater" instead of jacket.

"Thanks SuperDave. You had me going there on just one point, the fact that there were fibers of Patsy's sweater tied INTO the garrote, were found IN the paint tray, IN the duct tape, etc. etc. etc. Till I read it again and saw that key phrase..."we believe". Not "this happened", but "we believe this happened". From the DA. Sometimes one little word..."try"..."believe"...means a lot."

Well, hbgchick, if you're going to nitpick, it's lucky for us that I managed to dig up a more complete version of that exchange. Here it is for you:

Levin (again): "I have no evidence that suggests those fibers are from any other source."

At another part of this:

Kane: "It is identical in all scientific respects."

Wood: "Are you telling me it's conclusive?"

Kane: "It is identical."

He sounded pretty sure.

Here's another opinion: When asked if the fibers were incriminating, Smit replied: "Sure."

Look, if you want a smoking gun, I honestly can't give you that. I admit that, flat-out. But a lot of cases are made without one. You don't have to re-invent the wheel, if you'll allow me that phrase. But the FBI guys said that this case is what is sometimes referred to as a "gestalt;" the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. One brick is useless, but many bricks build a wall. It's a totality issue. That's the best I can give you for now. You're a good sport, hbgchick. I like that.

You're good sport too SuperDave, thanks for that. As my previous post states, I'm really not on one "side" or another, I just want to see some facts.

I'm not exactly looking for a smoking gun. Just some evidence that has no other explaination than "Patsy did it". Even the above testimony - I don't quite get it - conclusive and identical to what? Do you have a copy (and a link) to the whole transcript?

As for the jacket/sweater thing - easily explained, not necessarily a slip up. I have used the terms interchangably, you're obviously (even though your screen name implies it) a guy.

 

[rashomon]

1st it was x-mas and the traditional colors for the season seem to be black, red, & white....it's not like 100 other people in Boulder couldn't have been wearing something made from the same type of fabric that was just black and red...

Maybe the small foreign terrorist faction celebrated a real nice American Christmas party before squeezing themselves through the basement window and leaving behind black and red fibers.

 

[Seeker]

I didn't miss your bolded part. You said those colors "seem to be" the traditional colors for clothing on Christmas. I countered with the fact that where I come from, this is not the case.

I don't know of any place where this is the case, either.

Your implication is that MOST people would be wearing those colors on Christmas day.

If that wasn't what you meant to imply, what was your point?

You were defending the fibers found on Jonbenet as NOT specifically being from Patsy.

No I'm not "defending" those fibers just reiterating what Dr Henry Lee said about them. It also made me question the initial information that was leaked about this case and brought me to the conclusion that most of what was leaked was designed to point to Patsy and Patsy only although some of what we learned later didn't exactly match. Like why weren't any of those fibers found in JB's underwear if they were shed from Patsy's clothing? Where did the blue fibers that were found come from if Patsy wasn't wearing anything blue? Where did the animal hairs that were found in JB's hand come from and what color were they, how long were they and were they sythetic or real? Lot's of info on evidence that seemed to be withheld to make it look like only Patsy could be guilty IMO.

Here is what I said in the complete sentance. "1st it was x-mas and the traditional colors for the season seem to be black, red, & white....it's not like 100 other people in Boulder couldn't have been wearing something made from the same type of fabric that was just black and red..."

IOW, just because they found red and/or black fibers on the cord and in the paint tote that doesn't mean that they absolutely had to come from Patsy's clothing. Dr Lee basically said the same thing when he said that fibers being consistant with doesn't mean they were absolutely for sure from the same clothing that Patsy was wearing.

Patsy's jacket (I messed up and said sweater) was made out of fleece (per her 2000 interview) and it was grey, black & red, not just black and red. Why would only red and black fibers shed? Why weren't any grey fibers found?

Most of the time I see women wearing red tops with black pants or skirts at x-mas time just as most of the sweaters seem to be only red & white, at least out here.

 

[Britt]

Dr Henry Lee said flat out, "fibers consistant with does not mean a match. Similar, but not proven to be the same"

True, but consistent with is as "matchy" as it gets in fiber analysis.

It can never be stated with certainty that a fiber originated from a particular garment because other garments were likely produced using the same fiber type and color. The inability to positively associate a fiber with a particular garment to the exclusion of all other garments, however, does not mean that the fiber association is without value. (http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/july2000/deedric3.htm#Fiber Evidence: Assigning Significance)

If fiber evidence were disregarded as per Lee's qualifier, there'd be no point to that type of evidence in any criminal case, which would obviously be absurd.

IMO the fibers in the Ramsey case "match" Patsy as well as any fibers "match" any perp in any criminal case... any reasonable doubt here is due to fiber transference from her living in the house, not from lack of significance of the fibers themselves.

 

[wenchie]

No need to nit pick. Christmas time is a time when a lot of people wear colorful clothes. Look around if your at a mall. Red, Green, Black, White, seem to be the colors most worn. A great friend of mine sent me pajama's for Christmas. Bright red and black and white. I've worn them the last 2 Christmas's. I save them just for that holiday. I think Seeker is just saying people tend to dress colorful during the Christmas season.

Nitpicking is what this thread is all about.

A criminal who breaks into someone's home to do a pre-planned sexual assault, kidnap and murder generally doesn't wear his new Christmas party outfit.

Don't you agree?

 

[Wudge]

I can't. Just like nobody can give me any evidence that she was. The difference is that I never claimed to have any.

I am not a "believer" or a "disbeliever" in the Ramseys guilt or innocence. I just wonder how people can be so adamant that she/they were guilty, when everything I have read (hang on SuperDave, I'm getting to you! ) is speculation.

Most people who have had their life ruined, because they somehow became involved in a high-profile case and got caught in the glare of crimetainment's powerful floodlights, suffered greatly from rampant, and often asinine, speculation as well as from falsehoods leaked by LE (as in this case) to the media.

Jon Benet's case followed close behind OJ's acquittal. Many Americans felt outrage when OJ was acquitted. And many people blamed OJ's "dream team" of attorneys for getting him off.

So, when the Ramseys quickly, and smartly, lawyered up, these same legions of people feared that lawyers were going to get murderers off one more time.

A mob mentality quickly developed, and the Ramseys suffered from it ever after. Much of this occurred, because the public was very receptive to booking rumor as fact as well as assessing mouse farts to be granite.

Similarly, other people, who got caught up in high-profile cases that came after JonBenet's murder, were certifiably falsely demonized via the hysteria of legions of morons and/or via the wickedness of LE using the media to villify some poor soul or souls (as in this case).

However, out of all the high-profile cases post OJ, I am not of the mind that anyone suffered more than the Ramseys. For me, this makes Patsy's passing on especially sad.

 

[wenchie]

Most people who have had their life ruined, because they somehow became involved in a high-profile case and got caught in the glare of crimetainment's powerful floodlights, suffered greatly from rampant, and often asinine, speculation as well as from falsehoods leaked by LE (as in this case) to the media.

Jon Benet's case followed close behind OJ's acquittal. Many Americans felt outrage when OJ was acquitted. And many people blamed OJ's "dream team" of attorneys for getting him off.

So, when the Ramseys quickly, and smartly, lawyered up, these same legions of people feared that lawyers were going to get murderers off one more time.

A mob mentality quickly developed, and the Ramseys suffered from it ever after. Much of this occurred, because the public was very receptive to booking rumor as fact as well as assessing mouse farts to be granite.

Similarly, other people, who got caught up in high-profile cases that came after JonBenet's murder, were certifiably falsely demonized via the hysteria of legions of morons and/or via the wickedness of LE using the media to villify some poor soul or souls (as in this case).

However, out of all the high-profile cases post OJ, I am not of the mind that anyone suffered more than the Ramseys. For me, this makes Patsy's passing on especially sad.

All I see is that the Ramsey's did OJ one better, and assembled their own "dream team" BEFORE an arrest.

 

[lilsister]

I totally agree, if you are a suspect in a crime, even if you are so obviously Not guilty you always lawyer up...anyone knows that in this current litigious climate, never answer any questions w/ o a lawyer...not that I am a fan of lawyers etc.--it is just the smart thing to do esp w/ coerced confessions etc..

 

[BBB167893]

"I didn't say Mike Kane now did I? Didn't even imply it was Mike Kane....
Why did you assume it was Mike Kane? Do you believe he leaked confidential police evidence information during the investigation?"

Easy, Seeker. You don't have to jump down my throat. I didn't mean that. I have a good idea who you mean. But you seemed to suggest (to me, anyway) that everyone involved was doing that?

"Even the above testimony - I don't quite get it - conclusive and identical to what? Do you have a copy (and a link) to the whole transcript?"

Wood was asking how conclusive the fiber analysis testing was, and Kane told him that they were identical (more aptly, as identical as is possible for fiber analysis to be) to her known fibers.

I don't have a link at present, but you could try www.acandyrose.com That's always a good place to start. You might (just a suggestion) want to check out the handwriting comparison charts there as well.

 

[narlacat]

Most people who have had their life ruined, because they somehow became involved in a high-profile case and got caught in the glare of crimetainment's powerful floodlights, suffered greatly from rampant, and often asinine, speculation as well as from falsehoods leaked by LE (as in this case) to the media.

Jon Benet's case followed close behind OJ's acquittal. Many Americans felt outrage when OJ was acquitted. And many people blamed OJ's "dream team" of attorneys for getting him off.

So, when the Ramseys quickly, and smartly, lawyered up, these same legions of people feared that lawyers were going to get murderers off one more time.

A mob mentality quickly developed, and the Ramseys suffered from it ever after. Much of this occurred, because the public was very receptive to booking rumor as fact as well as assessing mouse farts to be granite.

Similarly, other people, who got caught up in high-profile cases that came after JonBenet's murder, were certifiably falsely demonized via the hysteria of legions of morons and/or via the wickedness of LE using the media to villify some poor soul or souls (as in this case).

However, out of all the high-profile cases post OJ, I am not of the mind that anyone suffered more than the Ramseys. For me, this makes Patsy's passing on especially sad.

Wudge
Here you go again with your assumptions.
I didn't even follow the OJ case.
So I am not included

 

[narlacat]

Because decency matters.

Upon her passing on, I came to make a post in respect to Patsy. I was surprised to find many highly venemous posts within the forum. It bothered me that classless people also came to spit, figuratively, on her casket.

Those posts brought forth from my memory bank a famous incident in Senator Joe MaCarthy's anti-communist campaign.

McCarthy had taken on the Army. In turn, the Army hired a private attorney, Joe Welch, to make its case in front of McCarthy's committee (his forum). A forum that he and his heinous attorney sidekick, Roy Cohn, used to destroy lives.

Shortly after the Army's hearing commenced, McCarthy went after a young attorney on Welch's staff by claiming that he had ties to a Communist organization. Welch's response ultimately ended McCarthy's career; Welch said: "Until this moment, Senator, I think I never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness." Not detered, McCarthy pressed his attack, but Welch angrily interrupted and told McCarthy: "Let us not assassinate this lad further, senator. You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency?"

Those last six words caused McCarthy's world to totally unravel. Three years later, at the age of 48, he died a broken man.

Decency matters.

Yes decency does.

I care not to be lectured about some dude named McCarthy, we are talking about the Ramsey's here, who acted anything but decent.
Was it decent that they were not interviewed for four months after their daughters death??
I don't think so.
The decent thing for them to have done would have been to be as forthcoming as possible.

 

[Brefie]

Agreed, Narla.

Tonight's show on CTV declared the Ramsey's were 'outraged' at the leaks to the press in the early weeks of the investigation.....kind of ironic since they spoke to CNN 4 months before they talked to investigators.....

 

[BBB167893]

There was always a certain hypocrisy in their media dealings. Anyone remember the NE interview?

 

[Seeker]

True, but consistent with is as "matchy" as it gets in fiber analysis.

It can never be stated with certainty that a fiber originated from a particular garment because other garments were likely produced using the same fiber type and color. The inability to positively associate a fiber with a particular garment to the exclusion of all other garments, however, does not mean that the fiber association is without value. (http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/july2000/deedric3.htm#Fiber Evidence: Assigning Significance)

If fiber evidence were disregarded as per Lee's qualifier, there'd be no point to that type of evidence in any criminal case, which would obviously be absurd.

IMO the fibers in the Ramsey case "match" Patsy as well as any fibers "match" any perp in any criminal case... any reasonable doubt here is due to fiber transference from her living in the house, not from lack of significance of the fibers themselves.

But they really don't do they? I don't see anyone else wondering why there were none of these fibers, that apparently easily shed off Patsy's clothing during the comission of the crime, found in JB's panties, or why there weren't any grey ones, or where the blue ones came from....why weren't any of those fibers found in JB's hair? They're in the ligature, but not in her hair?

Nope, for my money it wasn't Patsy that killed JB or there would have been even more of those same fibers found on her body, and on the blanket as well.

I don't remember, were any of those fibers found on the sticky side of the duct tape?