GUILTY GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 #11

[tomkat]

There are some obvious similarities to Laura. The two that murdered Laura certainly took huge risks in transporting her remains a VERY long distance. Both of these cases are so very sad and so very unnecessary! :banghead: :sick:

It is amazing to me how close to his "senario" that McD is following. The prosecution must be shaking their head in disbelief that he continued to have the zoned out mode, then the "they say I did something" mode...

I have thought for a while that his motive may be simple. <B>He may just want to prove his "brilliance" at outsmarting LE. It may just be plain and simple overbearing pride.</B>

I agree, and how sadly pathetic to have to go these means to prove yourself, to yourself or others, Sick Sick SIck

 

[tomkat]

There are some obvious similarities to Laura. The two that murdered Laura certainly took huge risks in transporting her remains a VERY long distance. Both of these cases are so very sad and so very unnecessary! :banghead: :sick:

It is amazing to me how close to his "senario" that McD is following. The prosecution must be shaking their head in disbelief that he continued to have the zoned out mode, then the "they say I did something" mode...

I have thought for a while that his motive may be simple. He may just want to prove his "brilliance" at outsmarting LE. It may just be plain and simple overbearing pride.

THAT'S WEIRD! Did they know each other???? lol. Kidding of course. WOW, IN the mind of psycho, shows you how all their minds work

 

[tomkat]

I just visit Macon a couple times a year and always in the Arkwright Road area. I'm not very familiar with most of Macon. I've noticed a little park like area/jogging path on the right where I-75 merges into the Macon end of I-16. Is this the area ya'll are discussing?

YES, traveling north, you merge left to Pierce ave exits on to Arkwright exits, or take the exit to I16 and next exit is Spring Street exit. To your right you will see. SUrely it was covered but it just doenst' want to leave my mind

 

[tomkat]

Are you all talking about the landing where there is a big staircase and a statue? That's on the corner of Spring St? I thought they searched that area. IMO I don't think he would have dumped the body in that area. With the River Walk being right there, theres a lot of activity right there (not to mention the homeless people roaming around that area).

Maybe not, but I dont' think people frequent into the brush up near the interstate. I actually never see anyone down there on the walkway. I personally find it attractive from a distance but would NOT find myself down there getting accosted.

The Homeless probalby won't report, I thought they ran them all out of there. Of course I see them from time to time but I guess they are sleeping SOMEwhere.

BUt, it's weighted on my mind

 

[Oriah]

Hardeman forsyth exit? That exit is before the curve going over the river and tracks which leads to Spring St exit. So as you merge right after Hardeman Forsyth exit, (i think that's the one before), you will pass over the tracks and river and you can see Rose hill cemetery beyond the river on your right, if you like to live dangerously, lol, quick look, THAT brings you to the exit which is spring st, SO if you STAY right as you cross the river and tracks and then TURN right at the light, YES there is a short piece of road, just as you make the right there is another bridge and the road is just on your right again before going over Ocmulgee again, that leads to the park setting down by the river

I dont' recall road construction, been a few weeks i was by there however

Hope that makes sense

It does make sense, thanks tomkat. Been way more than a few weeks since I've been by, so thanks for confirming.

 

[Givsmetheshivers]

Not exactly, but my theory is that it was part of one of the search warrants.

I thought that they could obtain DNA from discarded trash. If you throw it away, or spit on the ground, they do not need a warrant of any kind. I might be totally wrong.

 

[Backwoods]

I thought that they could obtain DNA from discarded trash. If you throw it away, or spit on the ground, they do not need a warrant of any kind. I might be totally wrong.

I think a lot of (but not all) jurisdictions do allow that, Givsmetheshivers -- use of what is sometimes called "abandoned dna". We saw conflicting info about Georgia when we were looking up sources, but I think (not absolutely sure, though) that type of sample can be used in Ga. ... as long, of course, as there is careful observation and handling to document and prove that the sample is from the appropriate person (the suspect and only the suspect smoked that cigarette, drank from that glass, used that toothbrush, etc.), isn't possibly contaminated by dna from others, etc.

 

[Oriah]

I think a lot of (but not all) jurisdictions do allow that, Givsmetheshivers -- use of what is sometimes called "abandoned dna". We saw conflicting info about Georgia when we were looking up sources, but I think (not absolutely sure, though) that type of sample can be used in Ga. ... as long, of course, as there is careful observation and handling to document and prove that the sample is from the appropriate person (the suspect and only the suspect smoked that cigarette, drank from that glass, used that toothbrush, etc.), isn't possibly contaminated by dna from others, etc.

I believe the current GBI CODIS info is all persons convicted of a felony, arrested for a felony, those on probation for violent felonies, and those on probation for non-violent felonies. So...pretty much any felony charge is going to allow for a DNA sample.
Maybe a verified attorney could weigh in here?

 

[bessie]

You're almost right, Oriah. I just noticed you included arrestees. Arrestees are not required to be tested, only convicted felons whether incarcerated or on probation.

TITLE 35. LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS AND AGENCIES
CHAPTER 3. GEORGIA BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
ARTICLE 6A. DNA SAMPLING, COLLECTION, AND ANALYSIS
O.C.G.A. § 35-3-160 (2011)
§ 35-3-160. (Effective until January 1, 2013)

Definitions; requirement for DNA analysis of bodily fluid obtained in noninvasive procedure for convicted felons; storage of profile in data bank

b) Any person convicted of a felony offense who is held in a detention facility or placed on probation shall at the time of entering the detention facility or being placed on probation have a sample of his or her blood, an oral swab, or a sample obtained from a noninvasive procedure taken for DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid) analysis to determine identification characteristics specific to the person. The provisions and requirements of this Code section shall also apply to any person who has been convicted of a felony prior to July 1, 2011, and who currently is incarcerated in a detention facility, serving a probation sentence, or serving under the jurisdiction of the Board of Pardons and Paroles for such offense. It shall be the responsibility of the detention facility detaining or entity supervising a convicted felon to collect the samples required by this Code section and forward the sample to the division unless such sample has already been collected by the department or another agency or entity.

O.C.G.A. § 35-3-160

I've been doing more reading, Backwoods. As we know, the Georgia legislation concerning DNA testing and profiles has been undergoing changes recently. Some sections of the Code have been redesignated and some things lumped together...it's complicated.

First of all, I was confused by Senator McKoon's statement about future legislation and probable cause, etc. Pearl and Frank were right. A DNA sample can be obtained with a search warrant because the Insurance code declares DNA the unique property of the individual.

TITLE 33. INSURANCE
CHAPTER 54. GENETIC TESTING
O.C.G.A. § 33-54-1 (2011)

The General Assembly further finds and declares that:

(1) Genetic information is the unique property of the individual tested;
O.C.G.A. § 33-54-1

and...

TITLE 17. CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
CHAPTER 5. SEARCHES AND SEIZURES
ARTICLE 2. SEARCHES WITH WARRANTS
O.C.G.A. § 17-5-21 (2011)
§ 17-5-21. Grounds for issuance of search warrant; scope of search pursuant to search warrant; issuance by retired judge or judge emeritus

(a) Upon the written complaint of any certified peace officer of this state or its political subdivisions charged with the duty of enforcing the criminal laws and otherwise as authorized in Code Section 17-5-20 under oath or affirmation... referred to in this Code section as "judicial officer," may issue a search warrant for the seizure of the following:

(1) Any instruments, articles, or things, including the private papers of any person, which are designed, intended for use, or which have been used in the commission of the offense in connection with which the warrant is issued;

(5) Any item, substance, object, thing, or matter, other than the private papers of any person, which is tangible evidence of the commission of the crime for which probable cause is shown.
O.C.G.A. 17-5-21

Now, regarding the form and collection of the sample, that is regulated by the Georgia Bureau of Investigation.

§ 35-3-162. (Effective until January 1, 2013) Procedure for analysis and storage of blood sample; use of remainder of sample not subjected to analysis; confidentiality of results.

Whether or not the results of an analysis are to be included in the data bank, the bureau shall conduct the DNA analysis in accordance with procedures adopted by the bureau to determine identification characteristics specific to the individual whose sample is being analyzed.
O.C.G.A. § 35-3-162

And here are those procedures from the GBI Division of Forensic Sciences Service Manual:

Collection and Submission of Known Samples

Known reference samples from both the victim and suspect(s) is required to initiate DNA testing. These reference samples may be in the form of liquid blood or buccal swabbings (see below).
NOTE: Do not collect a liquid saliva sample. Gum, cigarette butts or drink containers are also not to be collected as known reference items.

Then it goes on with procedures for collecting physical evidence, like blood, semen, saliva, etc. followed by Collection and Submission of Evidence.
http://dofs.gbi.georgia.gov/00/article/0,2086,75166109_84393031_84480981,00.html#submission

If I'm interpreting this correctly, a "known sample" would be obtained with a search warrant and collected in the form of a buccal swab or blood sample. But, discarded evidence, i.e., like a cigarette butts found next to a victim's body, could be collected and compared to the known sample to identify it as belonging to the accused. It would not be used as a source to extract a "known" DNA sample. A search warrant precludes the need to do that, anyway. Does that make sense? The other situation is when there is no suspect, but that's another post.

ETA: Sorry, I just realized the links aren't working. Here's a link to the O.C.G.A http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/gacode/
​

 

[bessie]

FYI for anyone who's interested, here is the final version of 2011 SB 80 that became "the law" on July 1, 2011. There are also links to the original version which provided for the DNA collection from felony arrestees, and the amended versions leading up to the final.

http://www.legis.ga.gov/legislation/en-US/display/32734

This article provides background and details on the changes.

Victim advocates originally wanted the database to contain samples from all suspects arrested on felony charges - not just those who are convicted - and are disappointed because that language was taken from the bill. The new law is just a first step in bringing Georgia's DNA testing laws in line with laws in other Southeastern states, they say...

Georgia's current law requires all suspects convicted of felonies and those on probation for violent felonies to submit a DNA sample to the state. The new law, which Gov. Nathan Deal signed earlier this month, will require people on probation for nonviolent felonies to have their DNA placed in the Georgia Bureau of Investigation's database as well.

http://onlineathens.com/stories/052911/new_836502644.shtml

Interestingly, the Johnia Berry Act is named for a Tennessee graduate student who was murdered in her Knoxville apartment on December 6, 2004. Her family fought for new legislation, and in 2007 Tennessee passed the Johnia Berry Act. As of now 26 states have adopted some version of it.

We were glad to find out that there was DNA left at the scene of the crime, but had no idea that the National Data Base lacked critical information to help solve crimes.That&#8217;s when we began working to make a change in the laws in Tennessee.

Johnia Berry Story

 

[Oriah]

Respectfully snipped for space, bessie:

<I just noticed you included arrestees. Arrestees are not required to be tested, only convicted felons whether incarcerated or on probation. >

I think you are correct, bessie- but I'm not sure, lol. I am hugely frustrated by this!! Help please!
We've got Nicholas v Goord, we've got Rise v State, State v Raines, State v O'Hagen, State v Brown, US v Sczubelek and of course Katies Law.

Where has Laurens case fallen? TIA for any insight.

 

[bessie]

Respectfully snipped for space, bessie:

<I just noticed you included arrestees. Arrestees are not required to be tested, only convicted felons whether incarcerated or on probation. >

I think you are correct, bessie- but I'm not sure, lol. I am hugely frustrated by this!! Help please!
We've got Nicholas v Goord, we've got Rise v State, State v Raines, State v O'Hagen, State v Brown, US v Sczubelek and of course Katies Law.

Where has Laurens case fallen? TIA for any insight.

It's true that the courts upheld the constitutionality of DNA collection from arrestees in those cases, but not all states are on board yet. Here is a chart that shows the status of the arrestee DNA laws in each state current as of September, 2011.

http://www.dnasaves.org/files/Table-of-State-Arrestee-DNA-Laws-2011.pdf

In regard to Lauren's case, under current law a buccal swab would not have been collected as a routine part of McD's arrest the way mugshots and fingerprints are taken. BUT...as a suspect in a homicide, DNA testing could have been ordered under a search warrant, which seems to be what happened. Hope that helps.

 

[Oriah]

It's true that the courts upheld the constitutionality of DNA collection from arrestees in those cases, but not all states are on board yet. Here is a chart that shows the status of the arrestee DNA laws in each state current as of September, 2011.

http://www.dnasaves.org/files/Table-of-State-Arrestee-DNA-Laws-2011.pdf

In regard to Lauren's case, under current law a buccal swab would not have been collected as a routine part of McD's arrest the way mugshots and fingerprints are taken. BUT...as a suspect in a homicide, DNA testing could have been ordered under a search warrant, which seems to be what happened. Hope that helps.

Helps a lot- thank you bessie.

Kind of interesting to me, b/c in K9 SAR a properly protected scent article taken from a suspect or victim is a DNA sample. Wonder when that's going to be added to the list?!

 

[tomkat]

HELZER BROTHERS MURDERS--might be an interesting read for some comparisons to SMD case

http://frenz19sixtyfour.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/children-of-thunder-the-helzer-brothers/


Murders occurred in 2000 and bodies surfaced in 2000, maybe just a matter of time

"A man on a Jet-ski spotted the first bag that washed up on the riverbank. Curious, he rode over, unzipped it, and found a human torso inside. A few hours later, a marina employee found another duffel bag floating under a dock a half mile away. This one contained a head. A marine biologist discovered a third during a survey of an island in the river. Nine bags were eventually recovered, some by dive teams."

Dismembered body in tub

I believe it said the group walked around naked during the murder and dismemberment (from the mysteries show on HLN

Dropped body parts in river in plastic bags, transported in duffle bags to river in van

left keys in van in hopes someone would steal the van (reminded me of the casey anthony case)

also, no one ever knew these siblings would/could be capable of such and would have never been suspected, of the Mormon faith, I think one was a stock broker who befriended one of the victims and gained their trust.

Blasted!!!!!!, makes you not want to get to know ANYONE!!

 

[bessie]

Almost two weeks now with no news. So what the heck is going on??? Amy? Joe? Anyone?

 

[Backwoods]

tomkat, regarding your post about the Helzer brothers murders -- read your link. Somehow I don't recall this crime, but truly horrific. I didn't get a clear idea from a quick read-through of how quickly the bags with remains were discovered, but I do see the relevance to this case.

Another thing that caught my eye was that Rohypnol drugging was used in some of these murders. I still wonder if toxicology studies showed any drugging in Lauren's case -- I've always thought it was a possibility.

A little off-topic but related: tomkat, being a local, you probably will have seen the articles, say, two to three weeks ago in the Macon Telegraph and on macon.com (and on local TV news) where Macon police were seeking public help identifying and locating three men (pictures were posted) they wanted to speak to regarding an alleged rape that happened in a downtown Macon club (which wasn't named). The info that was released was that the victim was at the club with friends and was dancing with a man there, then disappeared for about 45 minutes, at which point friends went looking for her and found her (it wasn't clear to me where exactly, but seemed to be still inside or near the club), she was "unresponsive" -- she was taken to a hospital and I think was expected to recover. The theory was that she may have been drugged. Scary stuff!!

I have not heard anything further, whether the three men police were seeking were located, etc. You can still see the Macon PD media release at
http://maconpolice.us/?p=1318

ETA ...and here's a 13WMAZ report that adds a little further info, including the possibility of drugging:
http://macon.13wmaz.com/news/news/58916-macon-police-follow-leads-rape-investigation

 

[Backwoods]

Almost two weeks now with no news. So what the heck is going on??? Amy? Joe? Anyone?

I know what you mean, bessie! I'm not hearing ANYthing.

 

[Oriah]

tomkat, regarding your post about the Helzer brothers murders -- read your link. Somehow I don't recall this crime, but truly horrific. I didn't get a clear idea from a quick read-through of how quickly the bags with remains were discovered, but I do see the relevance to this case.

Another thing that caught my eye was that Rohypnol drugging was used in some of these murders. I still wonder if toxicology studies showed any drugging in Lauren's case -- I've always thought it was a possibility.

A little off-topic but related: tomkat, being a local, you probably will have seen the articles, say, two to three weeks ago in the Macon Telegraph and on macon.com (and on local TV news) where Macon police were seeking public help identifying and locating three men (pictures were posted) they wanted to speak to regarding an alleged rape that happened in a downtown Macon club (which wasn't named). The info that was released was that the victim was at the club with friends and was dancing with a man there, then disappeared for about 45 minutes, at which point friends went looking for her and found her (it wasn't clear to me where exactly, but seemed to be still inside or near the club), she was "unresponsive" -- she was taken to a hospital and I think was expected to recover. The theory was that she may have been drugged. Scary stuff!!

I have not heard anything further, whether the three men police were seeking were located, etc. You can still see the Macon PD media release at
http://maconpolice.us/?p=1318

ETA ...and here's a 13WMAZ report that adds a little further info, including the possibility of drugging:
http://macon.13wmaz.com/news/news/58916-macon-police-follow-leads-rape-investigation

O/T- but god bless this victim for agreeing to release this case as rape. What strength.

 

[Givsmetheshivers]

A friend said that they saw an interview with the coroner and they asked if Lauren Giddings was the worse case he has ever seen. He said that it was the second worse, but that the torso was so disturbing that after he saw her he sat in his car and cried. That's very disturbing.

Does anyone know where to find this interview?

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

A friend said that they saw an interview with the coroner and they asked if Lauren Giddings was the worse case he has ever seen. He said that it was the second worse, but that the torso was so disturbing that after he saw her he sat in his car and cried. That's very disturbing.

Does anyone know where to find this interview?

No...but I had to comment on this. Wow. I read the Zahra Baker threads last week, and there was a press conference video where one of the cops almost broke down. It looked like every muscle in his face was straining to keep from crying. Your post reminded me of that.