Gerard Baden Clay's murder appeal

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I think Allison was right-handed, so if she had scratched his face during a front-on altercation you would expect those scratches to be on his left side.

If he approached her from behind while she was relaxing on the couch, then they would have resulted in being on his right side, which is where they were.
........... this way of viewing the scratches wouldn't support the confrontation hypothesis.

It was later at night, as from memory she had been talking to Olivia around 9 o'clock that night.
Thanks for pointing that out, Couldbe. I would also like to add that Allison could have resisted GBC in the horisontal position with him holding a pillow on her face. So her left hand went up trying to push his jaw away and this is how her fingers bent and scratched his face top down.
 
On the facebook, Olivia Walton is now Olivia Isobel, what a trick. She has been having a good time doing outdoors with kids, enjoying herself.
 
Sorry, I haven't or couldn't keep up with all the posts. I have a relative in the law who told his children not to study law. I am perplexed that GBC's sentence has changed. No matter how it is explained. He either DID THROW HER AROUND or he accidentally nudged her to death in the backyard. He never has said and the jury found him guilty. Is that not enough?


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Sorry, I haven't or couldn't keep up with all the posts. I have a relative in the law who told his children not to study law. I am perplexed that GBC's sentence has changed. No matter how it is explained. He either DID THROW HER AROUND or he accidentally nudged her to death in the backyard. He never has said and the jury found him guilty. Is that not enough?


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Flinders, was gets me about this, is that the autopsy did not find anything that would be consistent with an accidental fall hitting her head. He smothered her, and as she fought for her life, she managed to scratch his face. Well done Allison.

Something for us all to remember. When we are fighting for our life, try to leave a 'message'. Allison was able to leave us all a message on GBC's face.
 
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Flinders, was gets me about this, is that the autopsy did not find anything that would be consistent with an accidental fall hitting her head. He smothered her, and as she fought for her life, she managed to scratch his face. Well done Allison.

Something for us all to remember. When we are fighting for our life, try to leave a 'message'. Allison was able to leave us all a message on GBC's face.[/QUOTE]
Gerard says he ‘did not kill’ Allison, and Olivia says ‘my brother is an innocent man’.

JMO
Interpreting the evidence is available to us all; but applying the legal interpretations is the sole task of the Judiciary, and we have to accept that in the final judgment by the High Court.

Our interpretations of the evidence produced with regard to the events surrounding Allison’s death differ ….. just as the interpretations of the Judges differ (Although in this case all three Appeal Judges were in agreement).

Reasons for concluding likelihood of an altercation occurring in back yard:
. Plant matter in Allison’s hair;
. Scraps dog barking at around 10 to 10.30 pm;
. Screams made by neighbour’s teenage girl – evidence by witness brought in by Defence;
. Mobile phone of Allison being located by ‘Find my friend’ App;


Eliminating reasons:
. Contact with plant matter while dragging body around to carport/Captiva (thereby avoiding steps at front of house and risk of being seen from road);
. Children in bed and asleep by say 8 pm – discussion about marriage unlikely to have occurred late in the night around 10 pm;
. Screams heard by neighbours – Defence explained the source of screams after 9.30 pm. Inferring that those screams were reported by neighbour witnesses;
. App did not locate the mobile phone when tried earlier in the morning / but did work in locating it when tried by Police later at around 11.43 am (indicates that the phone was placed there by someone while Police were investigating inside the house.

However:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-08/gerard-baden-clay-wins-appeal/7009464
In the judgement handed down on Tuesday, the Court of Appeal said while Baden-Clay lied about the cause of scratches on his face and tried to hide his wife's body, there was a reasonable hypothesis he was innocent of murder.
It could not be ruled out that there was a physical confrontation in which Allison fell and hit her head, the ruling by Chief Justice Catherine Holmes, Justice Hugh Fraser and Justice Robert Gotterson found.
"Smothering, the crown's thesis, was a reasonable possibility, but while there was also another reasonable possibility available on the evidence, the jury could not properly have been satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the element of intent to kill or do grievous bodily harm had been proved," Justice Fraser wrote in Tuesday's findings.
………. http://archive.sclqld.org.au/qjudgment/2001/QCA01-272.pdf

Grounds for Leave to Appeal to the High Court by the Prosecution:
Gerard Baden-Clay: Director of Public Prosecution says Court of Appeal decision contained errors

According to the application, obtained by The Courier-Mail, the grounds include that the Court of Appeal made errors in:

- The application of principles concerning circumstantial evidence and in substituting its own views of the evidence, including a factual assertion not established by the evidence, for the jury verdict which was reasonably open on the whole of the evidence.
- Concluding that the post-offence conduct evidence remained neutral on the issue of intent and that the jury could not properly have been satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the element of intent to kill or do grievous bodily harm had been proved.

Director of Public Prosecutions Michael Byrne QC has asked that the High Court set aside the decision to downgrade Baden-Clay’s charge and dismiss the appeal.

In the alternative, he has asked that the appeal be reheard.
 
I wonder why Richter QC etc feels the need to make public comment?

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I wonder why Richter QC etc feels the need to make public comment?

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I knew him slightly about 30 years ago - I had a few legal connections and knew him just to say hello to - and my impression then was that he was very full of himself. Loved to be the centre of attention.

Edited to add: actually, to be fair, he was rather dishy back then, and undeniably very clever, and so probably not unreasonably expected to be the centre of attention. I guess he still does!
 
This is frustrating.

‘Absurd’ Gerard Baden-Clay appeal ‘likely to fail’: Richter QC
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...c/news-story/e47c2c6a8c58393fbea0e478c35b1a4e
Sor Juana, Would you be able to extract and post the salient points from the article please (I am not a subscriber to enable reading The Australian).

I hope these legal eagles are also prepared to accept they missed important aspects in this case ....... such as we websleuthers have focussed on.

Or, it may be us who will be forced to accept the alternative
 
Found this in my notes:

Whilst they found that the judge had not misdirected the jury, they found that the crown, the prosecution, the people who bring the charge, had not excluded the reasonable hypothesis that Mr Baden-Clay had not intended to kill his wife.
"The difficulty is this ... even though Mr Baden-Clay lied essentially through his teeth about very important matters, showed no remorse and, in fact, callous actions so far as his wife, notwithstanding all of that, the jury still have to be satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that there is no other reasonable hypotheses open."



............... finding this note has reminded me of the apparent requirement for the Prosecution, in conducting a court case, to evidently mention and eliminate alternative hypotheses along with accusing the Defendant of murder.

.............. Smothering would, in itself, be intent to kill

JMO .............. In this context, the question to be answered is: is there enough evidence to sway the Jury toward concluding he smothered Allison; and in so doing eliminate any other possible reasons for her death.
 
Found this in my notes:

Whilst they found that the judge had not misdirected the jury, they found that the crown, the prosecution, the people who bring the charge, had not excluded the reasonable hypothesis that Mr Baden-Clay had not intended to kill his wife.
"The difficulty is this ... even though Mr Baden-Clay lied essentially through his teeth about very important matters, showed no remorse and, in fact, callous actions so far as his wife, notwithstanding all of that, the jury still have to be satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that there is no other reasonable hypotheses open."



............... finding this note has reminded me of the apparent requirement for the Prosecution, in conducting a court case, to evidently mention and eliminate alternative hypotheses along with accusing the Defendant of murder.

.............. Smothering would, in itself, be intent to kill

JMO .............. In this context, the question to be answered is: is there enough evidence to sway the Jury toward concluding he smothered Allison; and in so doing eliminate any other possible reasons for her death.

Some comments on your notes Couldbe:

Firstly, 'they found that the Judge had not misdirected the Jury'. The Jury legitimately determined a verdict of murder based on evidence before them at Trial.

Secondly, a 'reasonable hypothesis'? Why is this post-trial 'hypothesis' reasonable?
Who said it was reasonable?

The convicted murderer did not claim 'accidental death' before, during or after Trial.

His lawyers raised this 'hypothesis' on his behalf at Appeal.
The convicted murderer has not, to our knowledge, admitted anything.

Is 'gaming' the system of Law reasonable?
 
OFF TOPIC: Is anyone here interested in starting a thread for KAREN CHETCUTI....Missing mother-of-two from WHOROULY south of Wangaratta.....Her neighbour a convicted rapist released from jail in July last year was the last person to speak to her and police are wanting to question him.....Her burnt out car has been found....There are media articles re this but I dont know how to link them to start a thread here.
 
Some comments on your notes Couldbe:

Firstly, 'they found that the Judge had not misdirected the Jury'. The Jury legitimately determined a verdict of murder based on evidence before them at Trial.

Secondly, a 'reasonable hypothesis'? Why is this post-trial 'hypothesis' reasonable?
Who said it was reasonable?

The convicted murderer did not claim 'accidental death' before, during or after Trial.

His lawyers raised this 'hypothesis' on his behalf at Appeal.
The convicted murderer has not, to our knowledge, admitted anything.

Is 'gaming' the system of Law reasonable?
Fuskier, in trying to understand on what basis these Barristers such as Robert Richter and others are producing these statements publicly I am referring to recent posts by JCB here on Websleuths (who seems to be knowledgeable on the legal aspects of Court murder trials) with regard to lies by the Defendant.

In doing this, I have come to the conclusion that a Defendant can lie all they want (even on oath) and those lies can be ignored by the Jury because the defendant is trying to get off.
However the Jury, in so doing, have to rely on the evidence presented by the Prosecution ….. such as evidence that supports their charge hypothesis which included ‘smothering’.

If that evidence is circumstantial (e.g. no valid fingerprints, evidence captured on camera, or witnesses to the actual murdering, etc) then it seems to be required that the Prosecution has to present their case showing how they arrived at ‘smothering’ and also how they had looked at and eliminated alternative hypotheses (such as other causes of Allison’s death e.g. accidental …… as raised by the Defence in their successful Appeal in having the verdict downgraded to Manslaughter).
………….. and was this actually accomplished by the Prosecution during the trial.

So it seems that the hypothesis of an accident argument put up by the Defence after the trial is an acceptable and reasonable hypothesis because they are claiming that the Prosecution should have presented overtly such a possibility of an accident ………. as an ‘either/or’ (Murder or Manslaughter).

Fuskier, this are just some of my thoughts in trying to understand why it is not as clear and without doubt that he is guilty of murder ……. Gerard Baden Clay guilty of murder ……. as seems obvious to me.



Your question: "Is 'gaming' the system of Law reasonable?"
......... JMO that it remains to be seen if the High Court take this on and examine the case and what their conclusions are. I sure hope Leave to Appeal is granted.
 
Responding to my own post 756.....A thread has already been started for KAREN CHETCUTI.
 
Thanks Couldbe.
I recall the jury did approach the judge during trial for clarification/instructions about murder or manslaughter in their attempt to deliberate this distinction. The COA found 'that the Judge had not misdirected the Jury'.
 
JMO and may be why a Manslaughter verdict was eliminated by the Jury:

No evidence of an argument / evidence of 15 min discussion as advised by Counsellor (Gerard evidence).

Both being right handed, scratches not consistent with being positioned in face to face physical confrontation.

Say, there was confrontation and Allison fell and hit her head
…... what a severe impact it must have been
…… what negligence in duty of care in not seeking medical help (Boy Scout training)
…… what a quick death it must have been that followed
…… what a quick solution to his problem of being found out he had killed her
…… what quick action to get her body down into the Captiva

Within an hour or so of her death, he had her body positioned 14 kms away under the bridge.
 
Have any of the local people read the Letters in the Westside News this week? For interstate and overseas people this is our local rag which covers Brookfield, Kenmore etc. Basically a male reader has posed the question what if GBC is innocent? He cites the points in favour as:

1. No trace of evidence at the house (despite Allison's mother commenting on how clean it was with the smell of bleach)
2. "Undressing and dressing her dead Body" - he seemed to think this was an impossibility for GBC
3. Carrying her body to the car - he seemed to think this was impossible even though plants were found in her hair indicating she was dragged
4. Driving the 14km to Kholo creek - why does he doubt GBC could do this (maybe someone else did)
5. Getting her body down to the creek without breaking his or her bones
6. No dirt or mud on his clothes or in the car (maybe because Nige vaccummed! plus there was Allison's blood found there)
7. He would not leave his "precious daughters" in the house alone - this is the only bit I believe.
8. He was ignoring the possibility of being observed
9. He waited until morning before telling anyone

This writer states all these points are not believable. I would like to ask him what is the alternative?
A serial killer loose in Brookfield forced his way into the house, kidnapped Allison without waking GBC up?
Allison walked all that way herself, lay down quietly and died?

the letter immediately underneath cites cases of incorrect convictions eg Lindy Chamberlain. It does not directly relate this to GBC but makes the comment "a whole nation was ready to crucify her too.."

I don't know whether we should draft a reply or just ignore it.
 
Have any of the local people read the Letters in the Westside News this week? For interstate and overseas people this is our local rag which covers Brookfield, Kenmore etc. Basically a male reader has posed the question what if GBC is innocent? He cites the points in favour as:

1. No trace of evidence at the house (despite Allison's mother commenting on how clean it was with the smell of bleach)
2. "Undressing and dressing her dead Body" - he seemed to think this was an impossibility for GBC
3. Carrying her body to the car - he seemed to think this was impossible even though plants were found in her hair indicating she was dragged
4. Driving the 14km to Kholo creek - why does he doubt GBC could do this (maybe someone else did)
5. Getting her body down to the creek without breaking his or her bones
6. No dirt or mud on his clothes or in the car (maybe because Nige vaccummed! plus there was Allison's blood found there)
7. He would not leave his "precious daughters" in the house alone - this is the only bit I believe.
8. He was ignoring the possibility of being observed
9. He waited until morning before telling anyone

This writer states all these points are not believable. I would like to ask him what is the alternative?
A serial killer loose in Brookfield forced his way into the house, kidnapped Allison without waking GBC up?
Allison walked all that way herself, lay down quietly and died?

the letter immediately underneath cites cases of incorrect convictions eg Lindy Chamberlain. It does not directly relate this to GBC but makes the comment "a whole nation was ready to crucify her too.."

I don't know whether we should draft a reply or just ignore it.
Wonder if anyone has tried to re-enact for the points mentioned by the reader.
Maybe some assistance would be required at some point.

Agreed ....... no evidence regarding mud on shoes or clothing. Injuries to GBC in getting Allison's body down the creek slope ...... maybe the marks on his neck and chest were sustained in the process.

Maybe her body was transferred from the Captiva to someone else for transporting to the bridge.
 
Wonder if anyone has tried to re-enact for the points mentioned by the reader.
Maybe some assistance would be required at some point.

Agreed ....... no evidence regarding mud on shoes or clothing. Injuries to GBC in getting Allison's body down the creek slope ...... maybe the marks on his neck and chest were sustained in the process.

Maybe her body was transferred from the Captiva to someone else for transporting to the bridge.

The no mud gets me confused too. But GerryRocks has photos showing that there is no way Allison was thrown from the bridge and the Prosecution surmised that GBC took a side road to dispose of Allison's body where she was found. The absence of mud on the Captiva/shoes etc??? I don't recall, but it was the weekend before Allison was found that all the rain occurred. Maybe it was dry on the night her body was dumped, eg no mud.
 
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