GUILTY GUILTY VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #9

Thanks Dangrs for addressing the racial implications/possible links.
That's a lot to wrap my head around but who knows. All groups of people seem to need a group they can hate. Whites hating Blacks. Blacks hating Asians. Hispanics think people hate them. My son has friends from several races and they call each other names - with affection. But if you walked up to a member of one of the races represented and said, Hey ______(insert term), you'd get your lights dimmed. So I ask him, why do you guys say those things to each other? He says, "we're kidding." I say, well it sounds opposite of what I try to teach. In other words, they're friends but they mess with one another about each other's race. What's that about? Is it a step towards acceptance of one another to the point where the jesting becomes unnecessary? Is it acknowledging our differences but accepting them along with the priviledge to comment on them? It's such a fine line between insult and acceptance, ya know? The dialog is open, the relationships are forming, there are kids who are not haters - it's happening. I'm one who likes cultural differences though; if people want to share, I'll be there. As long as everyone is nice. I didn't like it the time I got pinned up to the side of a bus for no reason, one arm stretched over each of my shoulders, and was asked, "who do I think I am?" I had only been walking down the street.
A scary moment.

Also I looked up Juggalo Communites - that is interesting. I had no clue as to that particular 'movement'. Like most things there seems to be degrees within that make it either understandable or cause the bad to outway the good of what the term is meant to stand for - core being true to oneself (but you must do this and you must do that). :waitasec:

Heidi and Seal seem to be doing well. :crazy:

Many of the kids involved in this case call themselves Juggalos.

But this subculture doesn't appear everywhere. For example I hear next to nothing about it in San Francisco, but I hear that it is pretty big out in the central valley, i.e. Modesto, Stockton, etc. Santa Rosa (mentioned by ericclimbs) has Juggalos.

I think the the history of racism is part of the suite of environmental conditions (whatever they may be) that make ICP and Juggalo culture popular or attractive in that place. ICP specifically speaks out against racism FWIW.
 
One more thing before I go so I don't hog the thread - regarding people who commit crimes that bring life changing hurt onto unsuspecting victims - I can't be on both sides. If I have to choose, I choose the side of the victim. It's a matter of free will and a perp understands there will be consequences for his wrongdoing when caught. The victim didn't choose; it was done to him.

It's hard for me to drum up sympathy for the perp. If someone relationally close to us turns up guilty as a doer of criminal behaviors, should we be required to agonize and repent over what that person has done? No. We're that person's victim too. That is the category Sarah fits into now. The season in the 'hot seat' will pass with time but, she is right, her life has been turned upside down and altered. She knows she didn't do it but she will have to find a new normal (Oprah says that). Find the truth and don't displace blame because that makes you sound like a person who is in denial; a person who is unable or unwilling to face truth. Sometimes you have to walk away imo.
 
Words only have power if you let them. Traditionally, almost all minority groups "take back" the pejorative words used towards them. African Americans, Latinos, even women.

The most notable example of this is the gay community. They use all of the negative terms others have used for them as positives within their own community. Every year for the San Francisco gay pride parade a large pink triangle is placed on Twin peaks in San Francisco. The pink triangle was used by the Nazis to identify gay prisoners in concentration camps.

An example to learn from IMO.
 
Words only have power if you let them. Traditionally, almost all minority groups "take back" the pejorative words used towards them. African Americans, Latinos, even women.

Oprah has addressed this phenom on her show - she's against it and thinks it perpetuates the problem.

Many years ago I was at my boys baskekball game. The gyms were backlogged so we had to wait. We were watching a group of older boys play. This goodlooking tall guy was standing to my left. It was crowded so we were practically touching. He screamed at the boys, "way to go N". I tilted my head up and asked him, "why did you say that?". He glanced down at me and dismissed my question. I thought :waitasec: ; I had not heard the topic discussed on Oprah yet. The idea of "take back" is strange imo. Do people want to keep negative labels alive? What purpose does that serve?
 
Some crime food for thought this morning (well morning on the West Coast anyway -- early afternoon for you snowbound Easterners):

Boy, 12, faces grown up murder charges

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/02/10/pennsylvania.young.murder.defendant/index.html?hpt=C1

"He is one of the youngest suspects in the country to be charged with homicide, legal experts say. There are two counts of homicide, one covering the fetus."

Jeez, charged as an adult and facing LWOP for a crime committed when he was 11? this prosecutors is out of control. How anyone at 11 can manifest the requisite intent for first degree murder, I have no idea.

Interesting legal fact for ya'll. Lawyers have one of if no the most complicated, regulated ethics rules of any other profession. I know, I know, Lawyer jokes aside, it's so easy to get sanctioned or disbarred it's intimidating.

But, relevant to the 5th grader charged with murder and to Sam's case, Prosecutors have additional ethical guidelines. The big one is that prosecutors have an ethical duty to ensure that justice is done. A lot of people view the prosecutor as the advocate for the victim vs. the defense attorney as the advocate for the suspect. This is only partially true. A prosecutor represents the entire state. So, they represent the victim, the defendant, and everyone else. Their goal is to ensure that justice is done for EVERYONE they represent.

The problem is that the DA is a political position. And Americans in general want blood from offenders. So, do you do what the public perceives is justice and will save your job, or do you do what's actually best for everyone you represent? Now, you can't tell me that this prosecutor is being overzealous and unethical by attempting to put a 12 year old behind bars for LWOP.
 
Oprah has addressed this phenom on her show - she's against it and thinks it perpetuates the problem.

Many years ago I was at my boys baskekball game. The gyms were busy and we had to wait. We were watching an older boys game. This goodlooking tall guy was standing to my left. It was crowded so we were practically touching. He screamed at the boys "way to go N". I tilted my head up and asked him, "what did you say that for?" He glanced down at me and dismissed my question. I was :waitasec: as I had not heard the topic discussed on Oprah yet. It is strange the idea of "take back" imo. Do people want to keep negative labels alive? What purpose does that serve?

it takes away it's power. The gay community is another good example. They take words like "Queer" and use them as way of empowering themselves instead of degrading themselves. With regard to women, there's a book entitled C*** (pejorative for women, and a womans vagina) that discusses the etymology and history of that pejorative, and how it shouldn't be such a negative word.

ETA: while Oprah might think its wrong, and I certainly respect Oprah, I don't necessarily think everything she says is right.
 
In discussing insanity as a defense last night in my criminal law class - I do not see in any way, shape or form that the defense has a shot at making a jury believe, even if only by a preponderance of the evidence, that Sam was legally insane at the time of the murders. You may be quite crazy indeed, but not legally insane. This is not going to be a very effective defense.

Andres: What is the law in VA regarding NGI versus Guilty but mentally ill and, if they do allow NGI then is is a two part process??? one for the guilt phase and then one for the insanity defense to be brought about?

I'm going to try and look up what test they use in VA to determine sanity etc. If you know, that would be great.
 
Sorry for the long post, but I found this regarding the insanity defense in a Virginia case:
respectfully snipped from: http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavtx/1553974.txt
And Bolded By Me (BBM)

"Instructions on insanity, as other instructions, must be supported by more than a mere scintilla of evidence." Gibson v. Commonwealth, 216 Va. 412, 417, 219 S.E.2d 845, 849 (1975). In determining whether evidence amounts to more than a scintilla, "we must look at the evidence in the light most favorable to [appellant]." Foster v. Commonwealth, 13 Va. App. 380, 383, 412 S.E.2d 198, 200 (1991).

"[T]he actual M'Naghten test for insanity, stated in the disjunctive, is the rule in Virginia." Price v. Commonwealth, 228 Va. 452, 459, 323 S.E.2d 106, 110 (1984). Under the M'Naghten rule,
"it must be clearly proven that, at the time
of the committing of the act, the party
accused was labouring [sic] under such a
defect of reason, from disease of the mind,
as not to know the nature and quality of the
act he was doing; or, if he did know it, that
he did not know he was doing what was wrong."

[ citations ommitted ]

The two facets of the M'Naghten test are the "nature-of-the-act test and right-wrong test," and both facets require a showing of a disease of the mind. Johnson v. Insurance Co. of North America, 232 Va. 340, 347, 350 S.E.2d 616, 620 (1986). In Price, the Supreme Court of Virginia explained
the application of both facets of the test:
"The first portion of M'Naghten relates to an
accused who is psychotic to an extreme
degree. It assumes an accused who, because
of mental disease, did not know the nature
and quality of his act; he simply did not
know what he was doing. For example, in
crushing the skull of a human being with an
iron bar, he believed that he was smashing a
glass jar. The latter portion of M'Naghten
relates to an accused who knew the nature and
quality of his act. He knew what he was
doing; he knew that he was crushing the skull
of a human being with an iron bar. However,
because of mental disease, he did not know
that what he was doing was wrong. He
believed, for example, that he was carrying
out a command from God."

[citations omitted]

In Breard v. Commonwealth, 248 Va. 68, 84, 445 S.E.2d 670, 679 (1994), the Supreme Court of Virginia held that the phrase "because of mental
disease" is properly included in an insanity jury instruction.
In Virginia, the irresistible impulse defense is available
"where the accused's mind has become 'so impaired by disease that
he is totally deprived of the mental power to control or restrain
his act.'" Godley v. Commonwealth, 2 Va. App. 249, 251, 343
S.E.2d 368, 370 (1986) (quoting Thompson, 193 Va. at 716, 70
S.E.2d at 292).

Irresistible impulse "'is to be distinguishable from mere passion or overwhelming emotion not growing out of, and connected with, a disease of the mind.'" Thompson, 193 Va. at 717, 70 S.E.2d at 291-92 (quoting 14 Am. Jur. Criminal Law 35, at 793); see also Breard, 248 Va. at 83, 445 S.E.2d at 679 (citing Thompson, 193 Va. at 717, 70 S.E.2d at 291-92) (holding that the diseased mind requirement is properly included in an
"irresistible impulse" jury instruction). In order to prove irresistible impulse, a defendant must show that although understanding his or her actions, the defendant was unable, due to a disease of the mind, to control or restrain these actions. See Thompson, 193 Va. at 718, 70 S.E.2d at 292.

Because both the irresistible impulse test and the M'Naghten
test require a showing of a disease of the mind, a defendant must
present more than a scintilla of evidence of a mental disease in
order to receive a jury instruction. See Gibson, 216 Va. at 417,
219 S.E.2d at 849.

Although lay testimony may support a plea of
insanity, "it is generally recognized that it is advisable to
adduce expert testimony to better resolve such a complex
problem."
Shifflett v. Commonwealth, 221 Va. 760, 769, 274
S.E.2d 305, 311 (1981) (citing Alexander v. United States, 380
F.2d 33, 39 (8th Cir. 1967)).
 
So Andres: am I reading this correctly ~ that enough evidence has to be brought forward by expert testimony before the instructions on the insanity defense will even be presented to the jury? (Civil Procedure class can't get here fast enough!)

So, basically, it's going to be a battle of the experts, who will knock each other out and then it will be left up to the jury to decide who they believe and my bet is that they won't buy legal insanity because of the circumstantial evidence that wil be presented.
 
So Andres: am I reading this correctly ~ that enough evidence has to be brought forward by expert testimony before the instructions on the insanity defense will even be presented to the jury? (Civil Procedure class can't get here fast enough!)

So, basically, it's going to be a battle of the experts, who will knock each other out and then it will be left up to the jury to decide who they believe and my bet is that they won't buy legal insanity because of the circumstantial evidence that wil be presented.

No, it's "enough" evidence, they just have to give expert testimony. It's similar to tort damages in that regard. I've got some research here I'll post in a second.
 
The defense of insanity generally requires complex and planned pretrial examinations, motions, etc., which are beyond the scope of this work, which only presents an outline of the law relating to insanity.
Notice of an intent to use psychiatric evidence in support of an insanity defense must be given at least 21 days prior to trial. Va. Code Ann. § 19.2-168. After such notice is given to the Commonwealth, the Commonwealth's attorney may move the court for a mental examination of the accused, which motion the court must grant. Va. Code Ann. § 19.2-168.1(A). If the defendant fails to cooperate, the court may bar the defendant's expert psychiatric evidence. Va. Code Ann. § 19.2-168.1(B). See § 4:11.

Va. Code Ann. § 19.2-169.1 sets forth the procedure for raising the question of the defendant's capacity to understand the proceedings or to assist his or her attorney in his or her own defense. Defense counsel are wise to raise this question whenever they have some doubt as to their clients' capacity. Failure to do so may deprive a client of effective assistance of counsel. See Wood v. Zahradnick, 578 F.2d 980 (4th Cir. 1978), appeal after remand 611 F.2d 1383 (4th Cir. 1980).

Where a defendant has given timely notice of intent to place sanity in issue, he or she may present evidence of insanity without formally entering a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity. A plea of not guilty and the notice required under Va. Code Ann. § 19.2-168 are sufficient. Jones v. Com., 28 Va. App. 444, 506 S.E.2d 27 (1998).

These are the formal procedures of an insanity defense in Virginia.
 
This part is interesting...

"If the defendant fails to cooperate, the court may bar the defendant's expert psychiatric evidence. Va. Code Ann. § 19.2-168.1(B). See § 4:11."

So if I understand this correctly they are going to have to let him be examined by the state's experts as well. Are attorneys typically present at these interviews?
 
Virginia retains the “M'Naghten Test” in determining insanity, which is in essence a test of the capacity to know right from wrong. The defendant is sane if he or she:

(1) knows the nature and character of his or her act, and its consequences, and has a knowledge that it is wrong and criminal, and
(2) has sufficient mental capacity to apply that knowledge to his or her own case, and to know that if he or she does the act he or she will do wrong and receive punishment, and
(3) possesses a will sufficient to restrain the impulse that may arise from a diseased mind. Dejarnette v. Com., 75 Va. 867, 1881 WL 6313 (1881), approved in Jones v. Com., 202 Va. 236, 117 S.E.2d 67 (1960).

Under the M'Naghten rule, a defendant's sanity is judged by two tests, either of which the defendant may be found not guilty by reason of insanity: (1) the defendant did not know the nature and possible consequences of his or her acts, or (2) if the defendant does know them, the defendant did not know that what he or she was doing was wrong. An instruction that requires the proof of defendant's insanity under both tests is erroneous. Price v. Com., 228 Va. 452, 323 S.E.2d 106 (1984).

Virginia recognizes the irresistible impulse doctrine. Godley v. Com., 2 Va. App. 249, 343 S.E.2d 368 (1986). The irresistible impulse defense is recognized in those circumstances where the defendant has knowledge of right and wrong, but mental disease robs the defendant of the will to refrain from the wrongful act. See McLane v. Com., 202 Va. 197, 116 S.E.2d 274 (1960). The defense is applicable only where the accused's mind has become so impaired by disease that the accused is totally deprived of the mental power to control or restrain his or her acts. Mere “trouble with impulse control,” or ordinary anger at learning of an upsetting fact, are not sufficient. Godley v. Com., 2 Va. App. 249, 343 S.E.2d 368 (1986).

Irresistible impulse may be a defense, where mental disease deprived the defendant of the ability to restrain his actions. However, passion or overwhelming emotion is not enough; the impulse must grow out of, and be connected with, mental disease. Absent proof of mental disease, a defendant is not entitled to an insanity instruction. Herbin v. Com., 28 Va. App. 173, 503 S.E.2d 226 (1998).

This is the test for insanity under VA law. A few important things to note before we begin debating whether Sam is insane per VA law:

1. This is for the verdict of Not Guilty by reason of Insanity. This is a high burden to satisfy and typically in Southern states specifically carries an even higher burden.

2. Under VA law, insanity or mental illness can be a mitigating factor during sentencing. Remember, trials take place in several parts. There will be a phase to determine guilt and there will be a sentencing phase. Therefore, in the event of an insanity plea, that does not mean that the jury will stand up and say we find him guilty and we sentence him to death.

Mental Illness as a mitigating factor means that depending on psychiatric evaluation and the specific details of the case, Sam could receive a lesser penalty.

3. Don't forget how valuable of a tool an insanity defense is to the defense with regards to a plea deal. Death penalty cases are extremely expensive. Add on to the top of that the cost of bringing in many experts and you can see how the price jumps. This cost relevant in light of the politcal aspects I discussed earlier. Especially in a (traditionally) conservative state where most conservative Americans are outraged over every dollar the government spends.

4. Again, there are lots of things that we don't know that can absolutely change our perception of Sam's culpability.
 
This part is interesting...

"If the defendant fails to cooperate, the court may bar the defendant's expert psychiatric evidence. Va. Code Ann. § 19.2-168.1(B). See § 4:11."

So if I understand this correctly they are going to have to let him be examined by the state's experts as well. Are attorneys typically present at these interviews?

Yes. Attorney will present is some capacity at these interviews .
 
Yes. Attorney will present is some capacity at these interviews .

It seems like an obvious thing for an expert to ask Sam about the "Jesus told me to do it." statement. If I understand correctly, anything he says to a doctor during these interviews could become evidence in the trial. Is that right?
 
It seems like an obvious thing for an expert to ask Sam about the "Jesus told me to do it." statement. If I understand correctly, anything he says to a doctor during these interviews could become evidence in the trial. Is that right?

the "Jesus told me to do it" thing will probably be inadmissible unless the defense really wants to let that in, which I think would backfire.

Without going into too much evidentiary law, not everything or anything he says to the doctors is automatically admissible.
 

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