Gun Control Debate #3

[RANCH]

Gun incompetence. He tried to kill them and he failed. Which is pretty common.

I find a story where the use of a gun by a homeowner that prevented crimes and no one was hurt as being a success and not a failure. JMO

 

[bluesneakers]

Some people just love man bites dog stories. It doesn't matter if a thousand people get shot accidentally, as long as one story has a happy ending.

Well said.

Yes, there's something that happens, I don't know what but it's like the hero story, the good guy with the gun who fights off the intruder (think Ralphie in a Christmas Story) could be them, but the man who shoots his own daughter or the mother who is shot by her toddler could never, ever be them. But look at the odds. I mean, look at what the risks of owning a gun vs. not owning a gun are.

 

[KaaBoom]

I find a story where the use of a gun by a homeowner prevented crimes and no one was hurt as being a success and not a failure. JMO

Shooting and missing is a failure. If they had been armed and skilled shooters, they would have likely shot back and killed him.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Seriously?
What about this: a crazed convicted felon on meth breaks into my house to steal, rape, pillage.
A gun would be for my **self-defense** and I would hope that for a variety of reasons I would be successful in defending my life.

I don’t take a gun out of my home. It’s sole purpose is to ensure that I can live in my home without being victimized.

^^ Totally. THIS I can get behind 100%.

Although I’ll never own a gun (for reasons I mentioned in my last post), my Mama owns two. And she knows how to use them. She raised two kids and taught high-schoolers for most of her 40-year teaching career.

Thankfully, she never had to use them, but she owned them because there were legit times (one in the 70s and another in the early aughts) when she was 98% sure she would.

Even then, a gun was the very, very, very last resort.

An aside , the thought of arming teachers terrifies her. She has been in a position — more than once — where she had to consider using a firearm against a student. Someone she knew. A kid. She said she’d rather put herself in the line of fire while protecting her students and be shot than have more armed non-law enforcement (armed teachers) in schools.

Think about that for a minute.

She has stood nose-to-nose with a 6+ foot junior, mentally unstable, who came in during the last 5 minutes of her class with a trench coat, video camera rolling, hand in his pocket, and walked straight up to her. The students froze. She kept her cool, asked if he could wait till after class so they could talk. He just smiled.

Then she asked if this video would be on the 5 o’clock news.

She was *sure* she would die.

She says today that the last thing she needed that day was a gun. Not with those kids around. Not killing a kid. Not escalating a very dangerous scenario.

He walked out. She told admin that kid was never allowed in her room again (he was enrolled in her class but had skipped a couple months at that point). The admin kept him in their office that hour.

And nobody here better smack-talk my mama, because she ABSOLUTELY made the right decision.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Isn’t it hypocritical if we are here as a victim friendly forum to feel bad about oneself from trying not to be a victim? I’m told I have a gun to kill a human. How insulting! What an oversimplification!

And it was stated clearly.

Yes, I was victimized for 13 yrs.

My post gets one “like”........not cool, folks. Have a great night.

 

[RANCH]

Shooting and missing is a failure. If they had been armed and skilled shooters, they would have likely shot back and killed him.

The miscreants were armed.

They were armed with a knife, guns and a roll of tape for an apparent kidnap attempt.

They made the right decision and retreated when confronted with gunfire. That probably saved their lives. JMO

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/c...n-daughter-kidnappers/5h2Z16B8tcD74IfabIthFN/

 

[rsd1200]

So sorry for your shocking losses.

I've been trying to hold off on what I am about to post for the longest time but it may as well come out now due to the subject matter:

Many many years ago (late 1970's) one of my distant relatives, 16/17 years old, accidentally totaled his father's car. His father was on the strict side, and before the father could find out and punish him - the boy shot himself.
I posted this on another forum, but, I usually post it a couple times a year, on social media, especially nearing holidays that are lon
I was quite young at the time, and I never heard where the boy got the gun from. I do remember things were pretty quiet in the family - his and mine - at the time.

I'm sorry. His parents must have been devastated, and likely had a rough journey afterwards.

Suicide is still spoken of in hushed tones, somewhat, around here, but folks are starting to realize that it should be talked about.

I post this on social media a couple times a year. I think it's a very powerful video and could be somewhat healing for survivors, and a deterrent for those struggling.

It's called, I Jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge & Survived.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcSUs9iZv-g

 

[MaryG12]

Seriously?
What about this: a crazed convicted felon on meth breaks into my house to steal, rape, pillage.
A gun would be for my **self-defense** and I would hope that for a variety of reasons I would be successful in defending my life.

I don’t take a gun out of my home. It’s sole purpose is to ensure that I can live in my home without being victimized.

Same here...are you on the Suncoast?

 

[rsd1200]

Not every State has the same expungement laws, so no....not every State can a convicted felon ever own a gun. Per your example in FL, a convicted embezzlement felon cannot get their record expunged.

And yes, we will have to agree to disagree on allowing a convicted felon to own a gun. I don’t want them to & I certainly don’t despise them either.

Well, no, that's why we have States Rights and for those states, the ATF allows it. I didn't say you despised anyone, you did (despise parents...). I just said it's against my faith to despise/hate anyone. It's not allowed. I can definitely become angry at them, and agree they should be punished, though.

 

[bluedivergirl]

So OK in your opinion what is the purpose of the majority owning guns, if not to harm others?

For many of us, shooting is fun. It is quite rewarding to develop the skill to finally conquer the majestic clay pigeon. Then you can start on skeet.

Hunting is fulfilling. It is satisfying to fill your freezer for the winter through your own efforts. An animal killed in the woods has a great life with a quick bad ending. An animal you buy in the store on a piece of foam has had a horrid life, unless you are someone who goes out of their way (and pocket) to get humanely raised protein.

Hunting is not easy. It is a skill learned over time. I never deer hunted ~ it is too darn much work. I would scout and help hang stands. I would hunt birds, mostly grouse and quail.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Yes, that is largely true. They are an advocacy group, first and foremost. I completely agree.

NRA: A powerful political lobby mainly representing the gun industry.

Around 80-90 percent of gun owners do NOT belong to the NRA — that’s between 73 and 81 million gun owners who are not NRA members. The group doesn’t speak for most gun owners.

I prefer facts, data and action (prior history) over hyperbole, but that’s just me. Your mileage may vary.

Links:

How many gun owners belong to the NRA? Not as many as you'd think
And studies show that most gun owners disagree with the organization's views.
https://www.metro.us/news/the-big-stories/how-many-gun-owners-belong-to-the-nra


Most gun owners don’t belong to the NRA — and they don’t agree with it either
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-agree-with-it-either/?utm_term=.b3265eb4dce9


Among gun owners, NRA members have a unique set of views and experiences
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...s-have-a-unique-set-of-views-and-experiences/


Poll: 67 percent of gun owners say NRA 'overtaken by lobbyists'
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/25/poll-gun-owners-nra-237564

 

[rsd1200]

I wondered about this too - because owning one for protection purposes counts as owning it to harm someone, no?

From Pew:

Why Own a Gun? Protection Is Now Top Reason

This may be true and I'm pretty much a pacifist. I do not like war, killing, shooting people over all this b.s. that people kill others over.

I have a home plan and it includes, hoping NOT to shoot the intruder. Many years ago, my Dad cocked that .38 next to the door, and told them to leave, and it was enough to send them high tailing away. However, if my grandkids, or kids, were in imminent threat, I would shoot an intruder, and hope to be forgiven when it's my time to pass from this world.

 

[RANCH]

Idaho man holds suspected burglar at gun point, waits for law enforcement

PINEHURST, Idaho—A Pinehurst homeowner held a suspected burglar at gun point until law enforcement arrived on scene.

Another successful case where a homeowner uses a gun and no one is injured or killed. Bad guy goes to jail, good guy is safe in his home.

http://www.krem.com/article/news/lo...gun-point-waits-for-law-enforcement/486617841

 

[bobcat]

And what if they call for another ban then? The argument that at some point in the future someone might call for a ban on different weapons doesn't hold up as a defense against banning assault rifles. The assault weapons ban worked, and it didn't lead to a nationwide gun-grab the way some predicted.

Personally I wouldn’t care if "assault rifles” were banned, as long as rifles I own don’t fit within whatever definition they come up with. However, I also wonder how it would be fair to people who have invested in them, whether they have them for hunting, or self defense. Would the government buy them back at a fair price? I doubt it.

 

[bluesneakers]

Idaho man holds suspected burglar at gun point, waits for law enforcement



Another successful case where a homeowner uses a gun and no one is injured or killed. Bad guy goes to jail, good guy is safe in his home.

http://www.krem.com/article/news/lo...gun-point-waits-for-law-enforcement/486617841

More self defense in action:

Boy, 2, accidentally shoots and kills mom in Idaho Walmart

Colorado man mistakes son for intruder, shoots and kills him, cops say

Florida mother shoots daughter she thought was intruder

 

[bluedivergirl]

More self defense in action:

Boy, 2, accidentally shoots and kills mom in Idaho Walmart

Colorado man mistakes son for intruder, shoots and kills him, cops say

Florida mother shoots daughter she thought was intruder

From The Armed Citizen:

http://www.kltv.com/story/37406038/...te-citizen-shot-man-trying-to-break-into-home

https://patch.com/georgia/woodstock/waffle-house-customer-shoots-armed-robbers-photos-released

http://www.theadvocate.com/new_orle...cle_05488ee0-088d-11e8-881d-2f2e163c4e43.html

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...passer-by-aids-utah-policeman-being-assaulted

http://www.wbko.com/content/news/Co...-suspect-until-deputies-arrive-472231523.html

I could go on.

 

[flourish]

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention*data shows that in 2012 there were 20,666 suicides by gun. That works out to one self-defense killing for every 78 gun suicides. CDC data show that there were more than twice as many accidental gun fatalities as as justifiable killings.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...4-innocent-people-die/?utm_term=.2c7678cd10e8

From that article

 

[bluesneakers]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...4-innocent-people-die/?utm_term=.2c7678cd10e8

From that article

So if you take out the criminal homicides that leaves it at 80 to 1. Doesn't seem like a fair trade to me.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

All of this. Thank you, kaen.

Let's get the CDC back researching gun violence, then most of our conversations can be filled with data in addition to strong opinions. Maybe this is something all on both sides can agree upon.

This from the originator of the Dickie amendment.

WASHINGTON — Looking back, nearly 20 years later, Jay Dickey is apologetic.

He is gone from Congress, giving him space to reflect on his namesake amendment that, to this day, continues to define the rigid politics of gun policy. When he helped pass a restriction of federal funding for gun violence research in 1996, the goal wasn’t to be so suffocating, he insisted. But the measure was just that, dampening federal research for years and discouraging researchers from entering the field.

Now, as mass shootings pile up, including last week’s killing of nine at a community college in Oregon, Dickey admitted to carrying a sense of responsibility for progress not made.

“I wish we had started the proper research and kept it going all this time,” Dickey, an Arkansas Republican, told the Huffington Post in an interview. “I have regrets.”

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...esearch-amendment_us_561333d7e4b022a4ce5f45bf

And this from the Rand Corp. (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...studies-gun-policies-violent-crime/383083002/) ....

"The RAND Corp., an influential think tank, created a research initiative called Gun Policy in America to provide a factual basis for the debate about gun policies to determine which work and which don’t.

But in reviewing available research, RAND found a lack of studies that documented laws reducing violence rather than just coinciding with the results. A review of thousands of studies yielded 62 with causal results about gun policies, only two-thirds of them in the last 15 years.

The reason: Federal funding for gun studies largely dried up 20 years ago. Annual spending bills in Congress since 1996 say no funding “at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”

The shooting deaths of 17 people at a Florida high school on Feb. 14 rekindled the nationwide conversation about gun policies. President Trump, lawmakers in Congress and Florida Gov. Rick Scott and his state Legislature are each grappling over whether more restrictive laws are needed."

 

[bluesneakers]

From The Armed Citizen:

http://www.kltv.com/story/37406038/...te-citizen-shot-man-trying-to-break-into-home

https://patch.com/georgia/woodstock/waffle-house-customer-shoots-armed-robbers-photos-released

http://www.theadvocate.com/new_orle...cle_05488ee0-088d-11e8-881d-2f2e163c4e43.html

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...passer-by-aids-utah-policeman-being-assaulted

http://www.wbko.com/content/news/Co...-suspect-until-deputies-arrive-472231523.html

I could go on.

So what's the magic number? How many justifiable homicides by homeowners does it take to erase all the suicides, toddler shootings, and homeowners murdering loved ones?