Has any suspected family member failed 2 Lie Detector tests and been found innocent?

[krowdkat]

The polygraph also failed to catch Gary Ridgway, the "Green River Killer". Ridgway passed a polygraph in 1984 and confessed almost 20 years later when confronted with DNA evidence.[38]

Conversely, innocent people have been known to fail polygraph tests. In Wichita, Kansas in 1986, after failing two polygraph tests (one police administered, the other given by an expert that he had hired), Bill Wegerle had to live under a cloud of suspicion of murdering his wife Vicki Wegerle, even though he was neither arrested nor convicted of her death. In March 2004, a letter was sent to The Wichita Eagle reporter Hurst Laviana that contained Vicki's drivers license and what first appeared to be crime scene photographs of her body. The photos had actually been taken by her true murderer, BTK,[39] the serial killer that had plagued the people of Wichita since 1974 and had recently resurfaced in February 2004 after an apparent 25 year period of dormancy (he had actually killed three women between 1985 and 1991, including Wegerle). That effectively cleared Bill Wegerle of the murder of his wife. In 2005 conclusive DNA evidence including DNA retrieved from under the fingernails of Vicki Wegerle, demonstrated that the BTK Killer was Dennis Rader[40]

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygraph[/ame]

 

[Dee10]

I am at work but I will see if I can dig up where I read or heard that about the FBI.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

If she really did pass would they request another two polys? It is possible they had more questions than originally, but surely the lst one asked the main questions regarding Kyron whereabouts, etc. Do we know if Kaine took more than than just one? Remember the FBI was the one to administer them.

Chris VanZant (prior FBI) said that it is very common for LE to ask for more than one polygraph test. They may not have asked certain questions on the first one since the case was just unfolding and then he said as further questions come to mind they go back and ask some to take another poly that will have different questions to it.

IMO

 

[just]

If she really did pass would they request another two polys? It is possible they had more questions than originally, but surely the lst one asked the main questions regarding Kyron whereabouts, etc. Do we know if Kaine took more than than just one? Remember the FBI was the one to administer them.

Great point. I do think she failed for obvious reasons, but...I'm not ruling out that maybe she never failed at all and that's just become some sort of urban legend. Has the LE ever said TH failed 2 polygraph tests - failed the first, walked out on the second, and failed the third is what I have heard.

Very interesting info you all have on cases where someone has been railroaded! Makes ya think!

 

[eyes4crime]

Here is a link to a comment I made regarding poygraphs in another thread. If you click on the link, you will read what I put together regarding how medication and underlying disease states affect the poly.

Important to note that the poly does NOT detect deception, lies or anything of the kind.

If interested, please take a look, the video is most interesting, especially the 2nd half.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5541853&postcount=23"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Lie Detector Tests & Corruption: A public figure speaks out[/ame]

 

[angelswatchoverthem]

I remember watching one of those real life crime shows a while back, and the case was back in the 70's. A little 5 yr. old girl was abducted from the tent where she and her sister slept, while the family was on vacation. It was a stranger abduction to the family, but the locals all knew the guy and no one ever suspected he did it. The child was consequently murdered, and they did find her after they caught the perp. He passed the LDT, but was guilty of the crime! They said he passed the LDT because he was diagnosed as "plain schizophrenic"! So i guess it is possible that this happens, although that case was such a long time ago, and i guess they have improved the test since then?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Here is a link to a comment I made regarding poygraphs in another thread. If you click on the link, you will read what I put together regarding how medication and underlying disease states affect the poly.

Important to note that the poly does NOT detect deception, lies or anything of the kind.

If interested, please take a look, the video is most interesting, especially the 2nd half.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Lie Detector Tests & Corruption: A public figure speaks out

Thanks.

This part is interesting.

Variables relating to subject and examiner:
...Subject comfort level in socializing
...Subject repore with examiner
...Subject stress in taking polygraph (real or perceived)
...Training and experience of polygraph examiner
...Polygrapher knowledge of test design and test interpretation
...Polygrapher knowledge of interpreting psychological nuances
...Polygrapher interviewing skills

 

[Lucid]

I guess the real problem I have with LDT is LE themselves. It is not against the law for LE to lie to you during an investigation. Therefore, technically, they can lie and tell you that you failed certain portions even if you didn't, just to rattle you.

I'm no TH supporter by any standards, but the only way we know that TH failed her LDTs is through Kaine. He said after the first test, TH told them she had failed. Whether she did or not, I just don't know.

There was a case where a father was convicted of murdering his daughter while his wife was in Chicago with her girlfriends. Police told him he failed his poly when he hadn't. LE coerced his confession. The case was overturned on appeals. Can't remember what the man's name is off hand.

This was Kevin Fox, and his three year old daughter, Riley. I actually lived in the small town it all occurred in, though now I am a few miles away. To watch the reenactments of how he was treated by police (assuming he wasn't exaggerating), I'd say it would be really easy to fail something like a polygraph, and I can totally see how people might be coerced into confessing, especially when some people go through hours upon hours of this treatment.

 

[cypress]

After Desiree and Kaine made their statements about Terri failing the polys, LE, in one of their subsequent press conferences, reiterated that polys are only a tool used by LE. I've always found that a little odd, and it seemed to backtrack from Desiree and Kaine's vehement assertions that Terri failing the polys is meaningful evidence. Granted, this is my interpretation.

 

[cypress]

This was Kevin Fox, and his three year old daughter, Riley. I actually lived in the small town it all occurred in, though now I am a few miles away. To watch the reenactments of how he was treated by police (assuming he wasn't exaggerating), I'd say it would be really easy to fail something like a polygraph, and I can totally see how people might be coerced into confessing, especially when some people go through hours upon hours of this treatment.

BBM

I take anything about this case with a grain of salt, but I believe it was Michael Cook who said Terri was subjected to five hours of interrogation about one question. I've always wondered about the one question, especially as it was reported early on that she "failed" one portion of her polygraph.

 

[Calliope]

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/weird/clark/index_1.html

VERY sad case. Allegedly failed at least one poly.

And the more they looked at Carl Dorr, the more he looked like their man. After all, hadn't he threatened his wife, saying he would abduct their daughter just three months before? Hadn't he and Dorothy been battling over the kid for years? Wasn't Carl the last to see her alive? They went right at him, asking him to take a polygraph the very next day. When the polygraph examiner, a local fire marshal, told them that Carl might know more about Michele's whereabouts than he was telling them, the cops thought they had their man.

"It was good cop, bad cop," Carl later said. "They were right in my face, telling me I had failed the polygraph exam and that it had been 24 hours and they knew she was dead. 'We're going to find her,' they said, 'When we do, we're coming to get you.'"

His estranged wife told the cops she thought he had done it too. She gave them an extra motive. Her estranged husband was trying to get out of paying her $400 a month in child support. Carl Dorr was caught inside a nightmare. When he told the police that he loved his daughter, they didn't believe him. He took a second lie detector test and passed easily. In an attempt to prove his innocence, he underwent hypnosis and took sodium pentothal, the so-called truth serum. None of this convinced the cops. But then Carl may have been his own worst enemy. He snapped, and in a psychotic episode told a psychiatrist that he had abducted and killed his daughter.

"I started hallucinating," he recalled. "I couldn't take the pressure. My brain was soup."

In his altered mental state he began to believe that people on television shows were talking about him. He looked behind the set and when he didn't see anything, he thought the police were altering his reception.

The next day Carl got into his car and drove to his father's grave. He began talking to his father's headstone. He thought the headstone was speaking back. His mind was so gone that he began to believe he was God's only son.

"I believed that if I could find Michele I could bring her back to life. And if was able to do that, then I must be Jesus," he said. He began calling himself the White Messiah.

The cops took all this to be a form of confession. They had Michele's father in for questioning again and again. It wasn't long before Carl Dorr was committed to a hospital for 72 hours of psychiatric observation. As soon as he got out, he was hauled in for questioning again.

This man went through hell for 14 years.

related posts:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5458117&postcount=142"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Is TH Responsible in any way for the Disappearance of Kyron? **NO DISCUSSION**[/ame]



[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5461271&postcount=351"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Is TH Responsible in any way for the Disappearance of Kyron? **NO DISCUSSION**[/ame]



[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5478281&postcount=210"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2010.08.02 - Kaine, Desiree, Tony called to testify before Grand Jury[/ame]

 

[eyes4crime]

This was Kevin Fox, and his three year old daughter, Riley. I actually lived in the small town it all occurred in, though now I am a few miles away. To watch the reenactments of how he was treated by police (assuming he wasn't exaggerating), I'd say it would be really easy to fail something like a polygraph, and I can totally see how people might be coerced into confessing, especially when some people go through hours upon hours of this treatment.

Hi Lucid, I don't live in Wilmington, but not far away in Chicago. I followed the Kevin Fox case for years. Yes, according to LE, he failed his poly and falsely confessed, was put behind bars, and I thought for sure Illinois would overturn the moratorium on the death penalty just for Kevin. I always thought he was innocent and was grateful when Kevin was cleared from murdering his daughter by DNA evidence that Will County failed to have tested.

Seems here in Illinois, and elsewhere, polys are used to embed guilt in the minds of the public. All they detect are your autonomic system's fight or flight responses - nothing to do with deception or lies. moo mho

 

[Dee10]

I will have to take back the FBI administered the test sorry, I can't find who actually did the administration of the tests in searching back. However, I found this which makes it sound as if it wasn't FBI administered:

[FONT=&quot]VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jack Trimarco, former FBI profiler and polygraph expert. She has been given, as we`ve said now, two polygraphs. Would law enforcement -- and this is a total hypothetical. If, if, if she failed both polygraphs, would law enforcement tell the husband? And you`re looking at the husband and wife there now that are filing for divorce. Would they tell the husband, "Hey, your wife just failed two polygraphs, and you know, do the math"?

JACK TRIMARCO, FORMER FBI PROFILER/POLYGRAPH EXPERT: Well, Jane, I can`t speak for the locals. But FBI polygraph examiners management probably would not share with the family.

He also talks further about polys & later in the show transcript as well. [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1006/29/ijvm.01.html[/FONT]

 

[just]

This was Kevin Fox, and his three year old daughter, Riley. I actually lived in the small town it all occurred in, though now I am a few miles away. To watch the reenactments of how he was treated by police (assuming he wasn't exaggerating), I'd say it would be really easy to fail something like a polygraph, and I can totally see how people might be coerced into confessing, especially when some people go through hours upon hours of this treatment.

Ugh, for those of us that didn't know, this case was only back in 2004. These posts certainly make me re-think what we know and don't know about this case. I certainly wish that TH would do an interview as so much can be gleaned from just eyeballing a person, hearing their responses - yes I know murderers all lie - but so far I've seen through every proclaimed innocent offender, and seen clearly and correctly those who have been deemed possibly involved and who I knew were not. There are just certain tells people have. In this case, well all we have are media reports, some flyers, bizarre stories and supposedly 2 failed tests. It's a :waitasec:

 

[just]

BBM. I don't see the relevancy to this case? LE hasn't said a thing about LDTs in Kyron's case, except that they won't talk about them.

I was actually asking if anyone knew if LE had said she had failed (which you answered: No), and if so have the LE ever lied to not only the suspect, but also let that false report go unanswered in the media - meaning - would LE tell TH she failed, then *not* denounce media reports that said she failed even if they knew she passed...

I don't think any of this is actually the case, but it would be interesting information if there was a precedent.

 

[Calliope]

I was actually asking if anyone knew if LE had said she had failed (which you answered: No), and if so have the LE ever lied to not only the suspect, but also let that false report go unanswered in the media - meaning - would LE tell TH she failed, then *not* denounce media reports that said she failed even if they knew she passed...

I don't think any of this is actually the case, but it would be interesting information if there was a precedent.

She's their prime suspect, even if they refuse to declare her so. IMO, they're not going to release any information that tends to exculpate her.

 

[JBean]

BBM. I don't see the relevancy to this case? LE hasn't said a thing about LDTs in Kyron's case, except that they won't talk about them.

The presumption is that LE told TH she failed. There is no reason for TH to say she was told she failed, unless she was told that.
Guilty or innocent, TH would have nothing to gain by saying she was told she failed.

 

[Calliope]

I'm not sure if this was ever answered, but I wondered how quickly an examiner can determine the results of the poly? Even if computerized, I would HOPE that the examiner would take the time to go through and verify the results.

 

[BeanE]

The presumption is that LE told TH she failed. There is no reason for TH to say she was told she failed, unless she was told that.
Guilty or innocent, TH would have nothing to gain by saying she was told she failed.

Yes, but I was responding to what I bolded in the quote I was responding to.

Maybe there are times when LE has told the public someone has failed but they're really passed?

LE hasn't told the public that Terri failed, and the poster was looking for cases LE - not the person who took the LDTs - told the public the person failed. That's why I asked the poster for clarification on why they wanted cases like that.

 

[BeanE]

I'm not sure if this was ever answered, but I wondered how quickly an examiner can determine the results of the poly? Even if computerized, I would HOPE that the examiner would take the time to go through and verify the results.

Oh I read up about that a few weeks back because I was curious too. Part they know immediately, and part takes a while, usually not available the same day.