Missing pregnant Shannon Watts and her two daughter's bodies found, husband arrested
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Holly Bobo found deceased, discussion thread *Arrests* #8

Discussion in 'Holly Bobo' started by Coldpizza, Apr 15, 2015.

  1. Coldpizza

    Coldpizza WS Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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  2. SteveS

    SteveS Attention: All my comments are IMO JMO MOO AFAIK e

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    Very astute observations. But I would add that this makes them like most other places. Too many cases, too few courts, too much iffiness in the system, too few top-notch litigators - add it all together, and making deals is the name of the legal game more often than not. Save the courtroom drama for TV and movies.
     
  3. OldSteve

    OldSteve Active Member

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    Speaking of Plea Bargaining - "95% of all criminal cases are resolved through plea bargains" according to:
    http://thepleabargainingblog.blogspot.com/

    Being interesting to see a state-by-state breakdown of plea-bargains... as well as murder cases versus other crimes...
     
  4. dog.gone.cute

    dog.gone.cute Kyron Horman - Missing Since 6-4-10

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    :seeya: Good Morning !

    And Thanks, Coldpizza, for the new thread for the new year !

    :seeya:
     
  5. dog.gone.cute

    dog.gone.cute Kyron Horman - Missing Since 6-4-10

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    :partyguy: . :party: :partyguy: . :party:


    Wishing everyone a very Happy and Prosperous New Year !


    :fireworks::fireworks::fireworks::fireworks::fireworks:​
     
  6. Hatfield

    Hatfield Well-Known Member

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    Thanks SteveS for the other reply at tail end of the other thread and this reply.
    I have a tendency to look for conspiracies even when they may not be there. LOL

    I had not even considered that maybe they did try to get a search warrant early on and maybe they were shot down by a judge which is possible. One thing for sure is the Pearl Heist arrest seems to have precipitated things to get moving in Holly's case.


    Thanks OldSteve. I am beginning to see that plea bargains and plea dealings is much more common than I realized. That article is very interesting about Japan who is considering passing a law to begin allow plea dealing. It will be interesting to follow that.

    "It will be fascinating to watch as Japan wrestles with the issue of whether to pass the proposed law. If the law is passed, it will be equally interesting to watch as plea bargaining evolves from its infancy in Japan. Will it come to dominate their system as it has in the United States? Only time will tell. "

    http://thepleabargainingblog.blogspot.com/
     
  7. coeurfragile

    coeurfragile Member

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    A fresh new thread! Hooray! March can't come soon enough. Let's get this show on the road already.
     
  8. Tugela

    Tugela Active Member

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    Carrying over Chainsaw385's reply in the previous thread:



    That is not what likely happened. DA supposedly admitted to disposing of items he knew had evidentiary value. That is all we know really. From a legal perspective, a prosecutor could argue that he was also involved in everything else as well based on that. The argument would go along the lines (A) HB was abducted (provable based on considerable evidence); (B) DA placed himself at the scene by admitting to disposing of evidence; and (C) HB was found dead and her body dumped in the woods. Throw in other witnesses who might claim to have heard JA etc bragging about rape and/or anything DA might have previously said. That is all they would need to get a conviction.

    Also, there was no signing confessions or anything like that. IIRC, the affidavit for his first arrest said something along the lines of one officer hearing DA admitting it to disposing of evidence to another officer, in other words there is no record other than the personal testimony of the two officers involved. Charging DA with rape and murder along with the other two appears to be a tactic on the part of LE to pressure DA into playing according to their rules. Give him the potential to lose a lot (such as his freedom or even his life) to scare the hell out of him if he didn't play by their rules. IMO DA was clearly surprised and shocked that he was being charged too. He probably thought he was on the same team as them. It is sort of the same tactics they tried with the Pearcy brothers to extract the mythical video from them.

    The prosecution might have decided to charge him only now because the case looked like it was going south and they had to find a way to get it back on track. Originally DA was their star witness, but LE probably expected to find lots of corroboration in subsequent investigation. I doubt that they thought he was going to be a good witness, but they believed him anyway because he was telling them the things they wanted to hear. They most likely thought it was a slam dunk back then and believed they would wrap the case up quickly. When that apparently didn't happen and they were forced to stall, they had to find another route, and that route seems to involve developing a mechanism to pressure DA to become a reliable team player in their strategy rather than a potential loose canon.
     
  9. SteveS

    SteveS Attention: All my comments are IMO JMO MOO AFAIK e

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    Nope. You keep declaring that they can convict DA of a capital offense at their leisure, as if it is a certainty awaiting their arbitrary decision to accept it. But no one - not even LE - can definitively declare they have all they need for a conviction, with a smug self-assurance that it's a given as long as they argue it in this way or that.

    And imo you greatly overestimate the strength of a potential case against DA. It would be an extremely iffy case, if the only thing they can offer is his out-of-court statement, while his testimony in court under oath is that he was coerced and it wasn't as the state is saying, and the others the state is claiming he helped do such a crime have been exonerated in court. At that point they would be trying to tie him to acts by JA/ZA that the legal system says didn't happen.
     
  10. Chainsaw385

    Chainsaw385 New Member

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    Apparently you didn't read the material contained in the link

    http://www.tennessean.com/story/new...-adams-charged-rape-holly-bobo-case/17251013/

    "The younger brother of the man accused of kidnapping and killing Decatur County woman Holly Bobo has now been charged with rape, along with previous tampering with evidence charges."

    http://www.tennessean.com/story/new...-adams-charged-rape-holly-bobo-case/17251013/

    "The news release said that on Sept. 17, "Adams admitted to TBI agents that he was involved in the forcible rape of Holly Bobo on April 13, 2011, at the address of 235 Adams Lane in Holladay, TN, in Decatur County."

    I can't help you connect the dots any further then this..........it appears you are confusing his arrest for tampering with his rape charges.And I am not sure why you are unwilling to concede he admitted to rape.Especially since his admission of rape has been reported on all over the place.There are a number of articles where his relatives have claimed he was coerced and/or mislead by LE.

    I don't know what lead to his murder charges after Holly's remains were found but he was charged with rape way before that.Which I am not arguing what lead to his murder charges but it is 100% certain his own statement is what lead him to be charged with rape.
     
  11. SteveS

    SteveS Attention: All my comments are IMO JMO MOO AFAIK e

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    Chainsaw, while I mostly agree with what you are saying, indications are that DA signed no admission of rape. From the way I interpret the reporting of the charges and the affidavit used to support them, one LE guy asked him questions and the other said he heard an answer that was an admission of rape. So there's plenty of room for he-said she-said in the way we heard it, although the truth may be far less vague. All of that occurred in Sep 2014 after Holly's remains were found, and in Sep-Oct he was charged with the rape. When they redid ALL the charges for ALL the accused in May 2015, he had been included in everything including murder, but nothing that we know of had occurred in the interim other than perhaps a LE decision to proceed somewhat differently than before.
     
  12. Chainsaw385

    Chainsaw385 New Member

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    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/brother-of-murder-suspect-charged-with-raping-holly-bobo/

    "Adams had already been charged with tampering with evidence in the case of Bobo, who was reported missing on April 13, 2011."

    I am aware that the tampering with evidence stemmed from something that was overheard .....but the tampering and rape charges are 2 separate events.It looks like he was charged with tampering and while being questioned about that is when he admitted to the rape,

    Can you post a link where it has been stated his rape admission was also only something overheard .....if so I will admit I was wrong.

    You are correct he was not charged with rape until after her remains were found.....but that was still well before he was charged with murder and is what I ment I just typed it out wrong.

    ***** DA signed something ******
    It could be just a witness statement that you yourself pointed out may have been only DA and SA a few pages back.I won't argue what he signed but IMO it could easily be an admission to rape.
    Something looks bad for him,otherwise family members wouldn't be so concerned and blaming LE for misconduct if all he signed was a witness statement or an admission to destroying some evidence.
     
  13. SteveS

    SteveS Attention: All my comments are IMO JMO MOO AFAIK e

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    1 All of the charges (first tampering, then rape, then murder) were subsequent to the Sep 2014 conversation between LE and DA that took place right after Holly's remains were found.

    2 But I have never heard any report that DA ever has signed any self-incriminating statement. Not on the tampering stuff, nor on anything else. Have you? If so, where and when?

    3 You said "It looks like he was charged with tampering and while being questioned about that is when he admitted to the rape" and I believed you have assumed a later conversation that no one ever claimed to have happened. Unless you have something I missed, either the rape charge flowed from the Sep 2014 conversation (that we were told happened), or from some conversation after that (that we might assume happened, but no one ever told us there was a later one).

    Of course, there could have been MANY conversations. But afaik, we have only been told there was the single incriminating conversation, we have never been told he confessed to anything in writing, and that conversation was related entirely as a he-said she-said story.
     
  14. Chainsaw385

    Chainsaw385 New Member

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    #1.....DA wasn't charged with murder until May of 2015,Not to say they hadn't planed on charging him with murder but were in no hurry since he was already in custody......he was indicted for rape Oct 2014.

    #2.....DA's family members have claimed he signed papers but didn't even know what he signed.I feel certain he has signed something but as stated I will not argue what.

    #3....Here is where I may be wrong but will need some proof before I admit it.This is also where we are reading completely different things out of what little information is available.

    DA was arrested for tampering charges......can you link to that arresting document so I can read it.
    He was indicted for rape....I wish you could link to the transcript but know you can't....LOL

    I am aware that those tampering charges stemmed from some type of overheard statement.I have read this numerous times from different sources.But have not read the actual document although I have searched for it and can't find it.

    Now is where we differ greatly...........I believe he was being questioned about the tampering charges when he admitted to the rape.Could have been the same date,doesn't matter.But I have not seen anywhere that claims the rape admission was something overheard.

    If all we have is his arrest report for tampering,which I do believe would contain the overheard statement evidence..........why should I assume he was indicted at a later date for rape based on the same statement or evidence as his tampering charges?

    I have enjoyed this little debate about this certain subject today but without something for me to read myself to change my mind.I am just going to disagree and move on until more information is released.
     
  15. SteveS

    SteveS Attention: All my comments are IMO JMO MOO AFAIK e

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    1 Yeah, that's what I said

    2 "I feel certain he has signed something but as stated I will not argue what." ...Okay. I differ, as I never assume evidence exists, until it has been reliably reported to exist.

    3 a - "DA was arrested for tampering charges......can you link to that arresting document so I can read it." ...I have seen it and read it, online, but can't link you to it at this point. (I don't bookmark case articles.) Sorry.
    b - "He was indicted for rape....I wish you could link to the transcript but know you can't" ....I don't recall any case or court documents posted online re the rape indictment.
    c - "I believe he was being questioned about the tampering charges when he admitted to the rape. Could have been the same date, doesn't matter.But I have not seen anywhere that claims the rape admission was something overheard." ...I never assume evidence exists, until it has been reliably reported to exist. And then I only take is as what it is reported to be, and no more. (I have found that often there are lots of assumptions made about evidence that later prove to have been false.)
    Soooooo - A he-said she-said conversation was reported as the basis to get an arrest warrant in Sep 2014. Afaik no report was made between Sep 2014 and the hearing and formal charges in Oct 2014 of any additional conversation, statement, or justification. In light of the fact that this has been a LE group that loves to spotlight their evidence, I took the lack of anything new being mentioned as an indication that there was nothing new, and that this simply flowed from the same he-said she-said allegation.
    d - "why should I assume he was indicted at a later date for rape based on the same statement or evidence as his tampering charges?" ...You can read things as you wish, but I see no logical reason why there need be anything else, plus there was no mention of anything else. I never assume evidence exists, until it has been reliably reported to exist. And the timing fits logically as well. From start to finish, over the course of a few weeks, LE first hears (or claims to hear) something, they get an arrest warrant based on what they claim to have heard, they send it to the GJ, and then 3-4 weeks after the conversation he is formally charged in court based on a GJ indictment.
     
  16. Chainsaw385

    Chainsaw385 New Member

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    You have often asked others to provide links......is my request for you to provide one where you found that DA's admission to rape is something that was overheard unreasonable?

    http://www.tennessean.com/story/new...-adams-charged-rape-holly-bobo-case/17251013/

    Once again this link shows the tampering and rape were separate statements ........Sept 17th is the day he was arrested for tampering and also the day he admitted to rape.....here are the quotes again.

    "Adams admitted to TBI agents that he was involved in the forcible rape of Holly Bobo on April 13, 2011, at the address of 235 Adams Lane in Holladay, TN, in Decatur County."..........notice the word "AGENTS"

    "Sept. 17 also was the day Adams was arrested on a tampering with evidence charge after the TBI said Adams told an agent that he had disposed of evidence on the day Bobo was kidnapped."......notice the word ALSO indicating separate events

    "On September 17, 2014, this agent heard Dylan Adams tell other agent with the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation that on April 13, 2011, Dylan Adams disposed of item(s) he knew possessed evidentiary value relating to Holly Bobo," a warrant said. "This offense did occur in Decatur County.".............notice the word AGENT

    I assume this was taken from the affidavit....which I can not find anywhere.And you are also apparently not able to link me to.....But even if you could it is going to be for his tampering charges and not rape.

    The tampering and rape admission are clearly two separate statements and at different times with different witnesses ....at least it certainly appears 1 heard the tampering and at least 2 the rape admission.

    What is logical is something was overheard regarding the tampering......he was then questioned further and at some point admitted to the rape

    If you can not provide a link to prove me wrong.....when I have supplied one that supports my thoughts ....let it go and lets move on.It will be known later which of us was correct but you are not going to change my mind without some proof.

    I have shown I will admit when I am wrong and will this time also but you simply have to back up what you are trying to convey especially that his rape charge was based on an overheard statement when nothing I have read state this at all.
     
  17. SteveS

    SteveS Attention: All my comments are IMO JMO MOO AFAIK e

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    You ask "is my request ....unreasonable?"

    Yep, imo it is, since I have responded to your query multiple times. I told you each time you asked that:
    a - in one case I have based my thinking on a logical deduction (and I explained my reasoning) rather than on someone's statement, and
    b - in the other case I don't have a bookmarked link providing what you ask for (so continued DEMANDS to me to spend hours searching for something that I don't have, or don't have on hand, and that I have no real interest in somehow proving to a greater degree than I already have, is silly and unreasonable. )

    If I had what you are wanting at my fingertips in the form you desire, I would certainly help you out. But if you want to more than I have already given, google is your friend and your best bet, I suspect.

    Both the tampering charge and the rape charge flowed from what DA said to TBI agents on 9/17. Period. While I follow the textual hair-splitting you have used to try to imagine 2 different conversations, I simply don't accept that as logical or likely. And since the tampering arrest was based on purely verbal allegations (per the affidavit used to get the tampering arrest), I find no reason to believe a rape charge that flowed from the same conversation would be any different. Instead, I see one conversation, which led to a warrant-arrest, which was then referred to a GJ, which then issued one or more indictments that included one for rape. (I didn't see any explicit statement, but suspect that the tampering charge was dropped when the rape indictment was granted.)

    Do I think you have it wrong, in asserting there was more than one conversation that day? Yep, absolutely. Am I willing to explain to you why I think differently? Sure, and I have. Do I feel any obligation to persuade you to change your mind? Not at all. This is not a court, and you are not a judge or juror, so I'm just here to share what I see.

    Anyhow, I don't mean any of the above disrespectfully, if I didn't word it the right way. We've both shared what we think and why. I'm moving on.
     
  18. Chainsaw385

    Chainsaw385 New Member

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    You also argued up and down that trying to indict SA were only idle threats.......and had no idea they had filled a restraining order to prevent any FUTURE attempts at getting an indictment against him.You thought the civil case was the extent of this ordeal.

    And get this .....you asked me for a link to prove myself correct when I posted this.
    I guess you are exempt for having to provide proof for you claims even when you expect others to take time to prove themselves

    I disagree with your thinking that they didn't interrogate DA further and more formally after overhearing his admission to tampering and that his rape confession didn't come from a scenario such as this but don't expect you to provide proof for this end of our argument.

    What I would like to see proof of is this document that you claimed to have read that states DA's rape admission was also something overheard.
    I have searched and searched ...... read article after article and can not find a single word anywhere that claim or states his rape charges were based on an overheard statement.Admittedly I can not find anything that states it was made during a formal interrogation or he signed that confession either.Which is why i am assuming what took place.

    My whole point is you are claiming my assumptions are wrong based off a document that you read......a document of which i don't believe exists.This is strengthened by the fact you have failed to produce the said document.

    The only thing I can imagine you might have read is the capias he was served after the rape indictment ....which AFAIK has not been released any wouldn't contain detailed evidence anyhow.

    http://www.dnj.com/story/news/2014/10/14/john-dylan-adams-charged-rape-holly-bobo-case/17252811/
    https://www.tncourts.gov/rules/rules-criminal-procedure/9

    * links provided for the serving of the capias ......and for Tenn. law regarding a capias since their purpose varies from state to state.

    **more then likely this capias contained the quotes from my previous links that once again do not state the rape charges came form an overheard statement like the charges for tampering did.
     
  19. Coldpizza

    Coldpizza WS Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Discuss the case and not each other please.
     
  20. Tugela

    Tugela Active Member

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    In the first highlighted part my reading is it was the opinion of the person who constructed the press release. It does not carry legal weight. Note that from a legal point of view, being "involved" does not necessarily mean that you were physically directly involved, just that you had a connection of some sort. Another example of that would be something like felony murder, where you can be charged with murder even if you had nothing to do with it, but it happened during the course of you being involved in a related felony. In this instance, knowingly disposing of evidence would satisfy that criteria. When he admitted to doing so, he opened himself up to the more serious charge as well.

    Initially he would have been charged with tampering because that would not require a grand jury due to his admission, and they would be able to arrest him right away. The second charge required a grand jury to establish probable cause and issue an indictment, so that came later. The evidence used to charge him is probably exactly the same however.

    The second highlighted part was quoted directly from the warrant and refers to a specific act that he claimed to have done. That is quite different from the first highlighted part.
     

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