I believe the Ramseys are innocent.

[less0305]

I, too, am of the belief that someone inside the home, whether family member or invited fifth person, accidentally killed JBR or either killed her in a blind fit of rage, hormonal rage, psychotic rage or whatever you want to call it...and then the family set about staging this kidnapper/stranger murder story. I honestly do not believe the intruder theory. The ransom note, the fibers, the lack of proof of an intruder, all sway me to the Ramsey's Did It, but the one thing I simply can NOT get over is the total lack of cooperation by the Ramseys. Their stall tactics, refusal to interview, refusal of polygraphs, the mere fact that they didn't visit a police dept every day of the week and hound the very living crap out of detectives to find who killed their precious child simply tells me that they didn't want to be anywhere near the people who are trained to find killers. I know we all can say, "you don't know how you would react in that situation," but I can tell you this with 100% surety...I have two children and if someone on this earth (their father or sibling included) murdered one of my children, I would not let a detective rest...I would not let one stone be unturned...I would not NOT submit to whatever test might help clear me as the culprit...and I would do it in the critical first few hours, minutes even...just so the killer of my baby was found and made to pay for what he/she did. And I'd take my chances with the police if they wanted to zero in on me and try to make evidence fit my having committed the crime. I'd take that chance....I would do anything if my child was murdered.

 

[Doyle]

well said less...

less knows more.

 

[Shylock]

but the one thing I simply can NOT get over is the total lack of cooperation by the Ramseys. Their stall tactics, refusal to interview, refusal of polygraphs, the mere fact that they didn't visit a police dept every day of the week and hound the very living crap out of detectives to find who killed their precious child simply tells me that they didn't want to be anywhere near the people who are trained to find killers.

You hit the nail right on the head, Less0305!
It's too bad the Ramseys couldn't have taken a lesson from the Van Damms on how innocent parents REALLY act. They might have made their guilt a bit less obvious...

 

[less0305]

well said less...

less knows more.

Thanks Doyle. I don't know about knowing more...but I know how my heart feels.

And yes Shylock....They wouldn't have put as much suspicion in people's minds if they had taken a few notes from John Walsh, Van Dammes, Mark Klaus, to name a few.

 

[MysteryMomma]

I think the Ramseys have been used to getting special treatment and expected LE to do the same. Wealthy people can have a messed up view of themselves and their place in society. I've seen well to do people who have less than the Ramseys did act like they were a step above us little people. I do wish they would have cooperated more with LE....but it didn't surprise why people like them didn't.

 

[Barbara]

I, too, am of the belief that someone inside the home, whether family member or invited fifth person, accidentally killed JBR or either killed her in a blind fit of rage, hormonal rage, psychotic rage or whatever you want to call it...and then the family set about staging this kidnapper/stranger murder story. I honestly do not believe the intruder theory. The ransom note, the fibers, the lack of proof of an intruder, all sway me to the Ramsey's Did It, but the one thing I simply can NOT get over is the total lack of cooperation by the Ramseys. Their stall tactics, refusal to interview, refusal of polygraphs, the mere fact that they didn't visit a police dept every day of the week and hound the very living crap out of detectives to find who killed their precious child simply tells me that they didn't want to be anywhere near the people who are trained to find killers. I know we all can say, "you don't know how you would react in that situation," but I can tell you this with 100% surety...I have two children and if someone on this earth (their father or sibling included) murdered one of my children, I would not let a detective rest...I would not let one stone be unturned...I would not NOT submit to whatever test might help clear me as the culprit...and I would do it in the critical first few hours, minutes even...just so the killer of my baby was found and made to pay for what he/she did. And I'd take my chances with the police if they wanted to zero in on me and try to make evidence fit my having committed the crime. I'd take that chance....I would do anything if my child was murdered.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

(standing ovation)

 

[Britt]

Anyway, I still think if BPD had had someone like Sheriff Wells instead of Eller driving the attitude towards the Ramseys then I think they would have been more likely to talk openly with the police... Instead BPD unfortunately confirmed the idea ( true or not) that they weren't interested in nailing anyone other than a Ramsey for this crime.

And, well, SO WHAT? The point here is not what the cops' attitudes may or may not have been. The point is what the Ramseys did or, in this case, didn't and weren't willing to do.

Who cares what the cops are "interested" in? Do you really believe that people as lawyered-up and well-resourced as the Ramseys are gonna get nailed for a crime they didn't do? lol, right. That is NOT what the Ramseys were afraid of. Common Sense 101.

 

[K777angel]

I think the Ramseys have been used to getting special treatment and expected LE to do the same. Wealthy people can have a messed up view of themselves and their place in society. I've seen well to do people who have less than the Ramseys did act like they were a step above us little people. I do wish they would have cooperated more with LE....but it didn't surprise why people like them didn't.

NOT if you are innocent.

Their attitude of deserving special treatment because of their wealth and status SHOULD have resulted in them HOUNDING the police - not avoiding them. Which is exactly what they did.
John Ramsey contacted a lawyer - a LAWYER - the very day his daughter is "missing" and then found dead. WHY??????
Bynum was brought into the loop for what reason??
So early on.
Why would their focus be on themselves instead of on finding out who killed their daughter?
They were "too distraught" to sit down with police - so they claimed.
But their ACTIONS belie this. They were just fine enough one day after they buried their daughter to sit down on NATIONAL TELEVISION and yak.
There is so much truth to the age old saying: "Actions speak louder than words."

 

[Barbara]

Tipper, I understand where you are coming from, but don't you think the psycology was the same from Susan Smith's point of view? Poor little Susan melted in the nice warm Sheriff's words for fear of being turned back over to that nasty ol' Caldwell. Isn't that a classic "good cop/bad cop" scenerio if there ever was one?

There was no good cop/bad cop scenario with Susan Smith. Susan Smith confessed because she was "tricked" into confessing. The police told her that they were going to review a "video" from a street camera where she said she was. When she heard that, she confessed because she knew no car would be seen on the camera. She was tricked, plain and simple.

That's why it is said that had she had a lawyer, she would be a free woman today.

That makes the Ramseys poor excuses for not sitting with police appalling. They had umpteen lawyers to protect them from incriminating themselves and falling for "tricks" and STILL they refused to talk.

The attitude? The Ramseys and their supporters will tell you the Ramseys had every right to refuse interviews because the police were calling the shots

Hello? Hello? Who should be calling the shots in a murder investigation? :banghead:

 

[Britt]

I think the Ramseys have been used to getting special treatment and expected LE to do the same. Wealthy people can have a messed up view of themselves and their place in society. I've seen well to do people who have less than the Ramseys did act like they were a step above us little people. I do wish they would have cooperated more with LE....but it didn't surprise why people like them didn't.

I certainly don't disagree that the Ramseys are legends in their own minds.

But I gotta wonder why they didn't behave the same way when the Atlanta "gentleman burglar" broke in, scuffled with John and locked him in the bathroom with a jacket, then made off with some of Patsy's jewelry and a laptop.

Funny, the Ramseys weren't above making a beeline to the police station in that case. Why is that? Was JonBenet not as important as some cheap jewelry and a laptop? Was it better to let a child killer go loose than a polite burglar?

 

[Ivy]

Britt, wasn't there something unfavorable to the Ramseys scheduled to be on TV the day the gentleman dapper tied John in the crapper? Some posters at the time thought it was just a little too conveeeeeeenient that something would come up to prevent that something from airing.

imo

 

[Britt]

Britt, wasn't there something unfavorable to the Ramseys scheduled to be on TV the day the gentleman dapper tied John in the crapper? Some posters at the time thought it was just a little too conveeeeeeenient that something would come up to prevent that something from airing.

:laugh: The gentleman dapper tied John in the crapper

Yes, you're correct, Ivy. Wasn't it a TV appearance by Chris Wolf and Darnay Hoffman about the Wolf case, including those pesky Patsy handwriting exemplars and expert opinions... is that right? Something like that.

BTW, I believe Wolfmargirl's ring theory sheds some light on that "stolen" jewelry. Ya think?

 

[Toth]

>I, too, am of the belief that someone inside the home, whether family
>member or invited fifth person, accidentally killed JBR or either killed her in a
>blind fit of rage, hormonal rage, psychotic rage or whatever you want to call
>it and then the family set about staging this kidnapper/stranger murder
Do John and Patsy Ramsey actually strike you as the type to do something like that.
>I honestly do not believe the intruder theory.
DNA just doesn't rate highly with you, does it?
>one thing I simply can NOT get over is the total lack of cooperation by the >Ramseys. Their stall tactics, refusal to interview,
I thought you had mis-typed and meant the BPD. They were the ones who stalled and refused to interview the Ramseys.
>the mere fact that they didn't visit a police dept every day of the week and
>hound the very living crap out of detectives
Thats what they were trying to get their lawyers to do. As a matter of fact Patsy Ramsey telephoned the BPD but they would not talk to her.
>they didn't want to be anywhere near the people who are trained to find
killers.
Not at all. They spoke with several investigators during this period.
Its nice that you would do everything. The Ramseys did a great deal but nothing would move their obstinate police department off their obsessive course.

 

[Nehemiah]

Anyway, I still think if BPD had had someone like Sheriff Wells instead of Eller driving the attitude towards the Ramseys then I think they would have been more likely to talk openly with the police and at some point (if they had guilty knowledge) one of them, probably Patsy, would have said something useful. Instead BPD unfortunately confirmed the idea ( true or not) that they weren't interested in nailing anyone other than a Ramsey for this crime.

The Ramseys lawyered up within 24 hours of finding their daughter's body. I don't see how they could have gotten any confirmation that the BPD was interested in nailing them that soon. Maybe they just took (bad) advice from their high dollar lawyer friends....but for whatever reasoning they really used, I think that was the beginning of the public's distrust of the Ramseys. I am a fence-sitter, but that is one big red flag that keeps me from jumping over to their side.

Don't mess with that laundry today; do it tomorrow.

IMO

 

[Ivy]

Britt, yes, WolfmarsGirl's theory sure seems to fit the scenario. At the time, I wondered why the gentleman dapper would conveniently steal jewelry that didn't need to be itemized after the "burglary" for insurance purposes. I wonder now if Patsy still has the ring that WG theorizes probably made the marks on JonBenet, or if the "burglar" conveniently stole it.

I think you're right that the "something" I referred to was that Chris Wolf and Darnay were going to be on TV that day discussing Patsy's handwriting, etc. The reason it didn't happen, as I recall now, was that Lin Wood was also supposed to be on the program, to counter Chris and Darnay's claims, but because of the break-in, the Ramseys needed him, so he couldn't be, and the program was cancelled. How conveeeenient.

imo

 

[Shylock]

DNA just doesn't rate highly with you, does it?

It does in DNA cases. If you would like to discuss one we will have to move to a different forum because the case discussed here is not a DNA case.

 

[Britt]

The Ramseys lawyered up within 24 hours of finding their daughter's body.

It was sooner than that. Their lawyers were on the job on Day One - December 26. White said he was contacted "shortly after the body was discovered" and then again the next day, the 27th, by three Team Ramsey people (ITRMI, p. 287-88 paperback).

 

[Britt]

Do John and Patsy Ramsey actually strike you as the type to do something like that.

What's that, the Type Defense? And who knew there was such a thing? There are probably a few criminals who need to be released from prison based on this new defense. They couldn't have done it cuz they weren't the Type... lol.

But since you ask... yes, they do strike me as the type to do something like that. This staged crime has image-obsessed, performance-driven, melodramatic narcissist written all over it.

They spoke with several investigators during this period...

Yeah, their OWN, the ones hired to "keep them out of jail." And they "spoke" to official LE during this period just long enough to say they wouldn't be speaking to them and that no time or place would be convenient and, oh yeah, "talk to our lawyers."

The Ramseys did a great deal but nothing would move their obstinate police department off their obsessive course.

Dammit, I hate it when cops insist on investigating guilty perps.

 

[Honeybee]

To be innocent. The tide turned in favor of the Ramseys some time ago. When you read all of the books, all of the available interviews and all of the comments of people close to the case, when you look at all of the available evidence, it becomes clear that the BPD blew the case by focusing solely on the Ramseys. There is a clear body of evidence that an intruder committed the crime and little or no evidence that the Ramseys, or one of them, did.
To my knowledge, not one expert has said it is definite that Patsy wrote the note--quite the reverse. It is true that to an untrained eye, it appears that some of the letters resemble Patsy's printing. But not to an expert, the only opinion which counts.

And disliking anyone's personality, as it appears that some have based their conviction of Ramsey guilt on this, is certainly no evidence that someone is a murderer. IN fact, without knowing the Ramseys, it is imposible to like or dislike their personalities with a reasonable basis. And some have apparently based their belief in Ramsey guilt because they don't like the sound of Patsy's voice. Thank God, we don't convict people for these reasons.

No, they are not guilty. I believe that in time they will be completely exonerated.

All of the above is just my opinion, of course.

 

[SieSie]

There was no good cop/bad cop scenario with Susan Smith. Susan Smith confessed because she was "tricked" into confessing. The police told her that they were going to review a "video" from a street camera where she said she was. When she heard that, she confessed because she knew no car would be seen on the camera. She was tricked, plain and simple.

That's why it is said that had she had a lawyer, she would be a free woman today.

That makes the Ramseys poor excuses for not sitting with police appalling. They had umpteen lawyers to protect them from incriminating themselves and falling for "tricks" and STILL they refused to talk.

The attitude? The Ramseys and their supporters will tell you the Ramseys had every right to refuse interviews because the police were calling the shots

Hello? Hello? Who should be calling the shots in a murder investigation? :banghead:

Very well said!