IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #1

[Floh]

Hi Floh, how ya going Possum. I think that too many kids seem to go missing .Of course, there are orgaanised rings.Not sure if I buy the whole Franklin cover up or the Bohemian Grove connection but I would definetly not rule any thing out.Media moguls are usually in bed with governments so a cover up is not impossible.I always try to keep my mind open.

I'm doing good, Kazz - just about to run off round the city for a few hours, but wanted to quickly answer you.

what you said. exactly. too many missing children on a massive scale and "Media moguls are usually in bed with governments so a cover up is not impossible."

 

[Floh]

That is a very important statement, and I agree with it wholeheartedly.

The very crux of fighting this is understanding it is a very important statement! :clap:

 

[William R Thomas]

William - in post #146 of the "boys bound & gaged" thread you said " I believe this to be possibly one big hoax" and then posed the question " Who would add "the brand" and why?"

Have you changed your opinion, and if so, what info caused you to change it? Perhaps I've missed something you could bring to my attention.

I'm baffled by the brand. Think for one second, as a criminal or a hoaxter...Whomever added the brand has some depth of knowledge about these rings and the way they work.

I have studied the deeply disturbed criminal element for many years (albeit, not kidnapping or child sex rings) and branding of children wasn't something I ever concieved, had heard of, or even considered.

Now, I can' speak for everyone, but I think I can say that for the commoner off the street, branding a child would be something new to them as well.

So now we have a person, who send the photographs, circles and essentialy highlights "The Brand" as though it is a major clue. But not only that, they pick a common, readily available, and well known brand to utilize. Hoax or not, it would appear that this person has some knowledge of something, even if it is cursory.

I suppose I'm not directly answering your question, but that is because I am still deeply pondering, still looking for the clue that we are either missing, or I am just being sucked in by the hoaxter, whomever it may be.

 

[William R Thomas]

I'd Like to believe it but when I do reasearch on any of these claimes I am directed to web sites that are propaganda not fact. Anyone can create a website and say what they want to on it. I choose to not beleive in things that have no real factual base.

As far as the press not picking up on the pedo white house ring/gannon/Bohemian/gosch.....sorry but I dont get your point. Most of them would love to get a juicy story on the White House and most especially BUSH. I can understand that FOX may not pick it up but CNN or The New York Times? Seems like a no brainer to me. Unless some one can point me to a timeline with true accurate FACTS regarding this I will choose to err on the side of what we know for sure. That Johnny Gosch was abducted from his town and that pictures have surfaced recently depicting him in clothing from that era with 2 other young men.

The rest is speculation....I don't even put alot of weight into the visit that Norenn got by Johnny. So thats where I stand....I guess you could say "SHOW ME" since thats wher I'm from.

I can't say I agree with your reasoning. If you throw out everything, you have nothing. Not believing something simply because mainstream news media hasn't picked up the story is simply irresponsible this day in age. There are thousands of very important stories everyday around the world that don't make even a water droplet of news here. The media has an agenda, which you obviously know as your post was clearly partisan, which way, I don't know or care, with regards to your comments about the President.

Do you believe in God? I don't. Show me he exist. The fact of the matter is you can't. You can show me the sun, and the sky, and a baby smiling, and the bible, and birds chirping in the morning, but there is nothing you can definitively hand to me to prove to me that He exist. It is essentially the same for this case. If you can't keep an open mind, then this is probably not a case you will ever be able to fully grasp.

It may seem like I'm coming down on you, but I assure you, I am simply saying that if your going to contribute positively to the Gosch forum, it is almost a prequesit here that you evaluate everything, and dismiss nothing. This case is akin to 10,000 piece jigsaw puzzle, and all the pieces are the same color.

 

[William R Thomas]

Thank you, Mr. Thomas, for your input. You come across as level-headed and reasonable in your approach.

Thank you for your kind words.

 

[kazzbar]

I think it is great that we can all come on this forum express our views and have our own opinionsAlthough I do not agree with everyone all the time it is good to see that we all disagree in a restrained manner. Thanks guys! I do not like threads that get too one sided. It is good to have a balnce where not everyone agrees.

 

[HeartofTexas]

If you throw out everything, you have nothing.

Again, Mr. Thomas, a clear and concise argument. It's been my feeling for a number of years that the very reason these pedophile rings (possibly involving high-level government officials) have been able to operate in this country is that people can't conceive of something so perverse actually existing. Too many people read a little about it, shake their heads in wonderment, and then throw out the entire story as too far-fetched to be believable. That kind of thinking works very well for pedophilia!

However, if you stop and think about it, perverse sexual pleasure has been around for as long as history has been traced. And because of the very perverse nature of it, it's always been undergound. Even your little run-of-the mill sexual abuser knows to threaten little boys and girls with harming their family if they dare to tell what's happened to them. Or, even worse, the abuser is a parent... and then there's no one to tell. Stop and think about various news reports over the years... highly visible ministers (Jimmy Swaggart comes to mind) admit they have fallen for the evils of prostitutes... esteemed Boy Scout leaders are arrested for molesting hundreds of little boys. Even a former Miss America (Marilyn VanDerbur) was molested from ages 5-18 by her father, a wealthy Colorado businessman who also happened to be a high level Boy Scout leader. And Priests are moved from parish to parish over the years to hide their ugly trail of molestation and betrayal of their parishioner's children. These are but a few examples.

And then one year some goon decided that NAMBLA was a good idea... and the sickness of these depraved individuals was banded together into a cohesive group. I shudder to even think of the consequences resulting from a group of men somehow justifying in their sick minds that sex with a boy was both natural and good.

 

[Roy Harrold]

It may seem like I'm coming down on you, but I assure you, I am simply saying that if your going to contribute positively to the Gosch forum, it is almost a prequesit here that you evaluate everything, and dismiss nothing. This case is akin to 10,000 piece jigsaw puzzle, and all the pieces are the same color.

Obviously, I disagree.

A conspiracy theory that holds, as a central focus, that all levels of government and law enforcement are corrupted and under the control of an international child sex slave ring, inherently dismisses any concrete evidence of a contradictory nature to be deliberate mis-information and further "proof" of a cover-up.

And in fact, that is the case with the "Franklin Cover-up" and "Conspiracy of Silence".

A Grand Jury examined the pedo sex ring allegations back in the late 1980's.
It called them "a carefully crafted hoax" and charged claimants with perjury.

A Nebraska Senate committee vehemently disagreed with the Grand Jury's findings, but the fact remains these allegations HAVE gone through the legal process already and been declared "not credible".

For the conspiracy theories, this is "proof" of a cover-up.

When Johnny Gosch's remains are eventually recovered, and show that he was 12 when he died, there will be people who will refuse to believe they are his remains. They will claim some other murdered child's body is being passed off as Johnny Gosch - as part of "the cover-up".

If Zalva does come up with case file info about these pictures, fans of the conspiracy theories will dismiss him as being a "dis-information agent" controlled by the conspiracy.

There is NO evidence that could ever disprove the conspiracy theories for some people, because their adherence to them is a BELIEF. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, but beliefs don't solve crimes. Credible witness testimony backed by hard physical evidence solves crimes.

 

[Roy Harrold]

There was a serial killer targeting paperboys, in the Nebraska area, at the time Johnny Gosch went missing. The FBI didn't think Gosch was one of his victims (or they couldn't prove it, primarily because there was no body) and I hope he wasn't because the fate of this maniacs victims was so horrific - but Johnny Gosch fits the profile of this guys victims and of his MO, perfectly.

John Joubert (executed)

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/john_joubert/index.html

 

[William R Thomas]

Obviously, I disagree.

A conspiracy theory that holds, as a central focus, that all levels of government and law enforcement are corrupted and under the control of an international child sex slave ring, inherently dismisses any concrete evidence of a contradictory nature to be deliberate mis-information and further "proof" of a cover-up.

And in fact, that is the case with the "Franklin Cover-up" and "Conspiracy of Silence".

A Grand Jury examined the pedo sex ring allegations back in the late 1980's.
It called them "a carefully crafted hoax" and charged claimants with perjury.

A Nebraska Senate committee vehemently disagreed with the Grand Jury's findings, but the fact remains these allegations HAVE gone through the legal process already and been declared "not credible".

For the conspiracy theories, this is "proof" of a cover-up.



If Zalva does come up with case file info about these pictures, fans of the conspiracy theories will dismiss him as being a "dis-information agent" controlled by the conspiracy.

There is NO evidence that could ever disprove the conspiracy theories for some people, because their adherence to them is a BELIEF. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, but beliefs don't solve crimes. Credible witness testimony backed by hard physical evidence solves crimes.

You and I don't agree on everything, but I think that you would acknolwdge that I am not really one for the whole consipracy by the governement, satanic cult ring either.

I stated before that I don't believe there is any direct governement involvement, and I honestly don't even BEGIN to see where the supposed satanic aspects come in.

However, I will respectfully disagree with you, as even without those elements, theres still a lot of things that don't add up in this case.

When Johnny Gosch's remains are eventually recovered, and show that he was 12 when he died, there will be people who will refuse to believe they are his remains. They will claim some other murdered child's body is being passed off as Johnny Gosch - as part of "the cover-up".

From your post above, it appears that you made up your mind about what happened to JG a long time ago.

YOU also state make a comment about the Nebraska state senate and their disbelief but it's these same people that allowed Caradori to continue his investigation into the child *advertiser censored* allegations.

I'm here because I want to help solve this case. I obviously don't speak for everyone.

 

[Eisbar]

I understand that people want to believe in the conspiracy theory and there are some aspects that are appealing. But for me, and I am only speaking about me, I buy very little of it. I also would never throw out anything in a clump because I can''t see it.

When I analize the evidence and circumstances about this case what stands out to me is that the photos she just received were of Johnny right after he was taken.....not three years after, not 10 years after. So with that being said I wonder if Johnny is even alive? See, if he was wouldn't someone have brought her more recent pictures to show that he had been in captivity? That he is even alive? Pedo's take pride in their conquests and pictures must exist of Johnny at a different age. Unless more pictures surface of a different time frame than the early '80's, I'm inclined to think he has passed away. Often pedo's once a child has reached a certain age of maturity dispose of their property.

Cover up........maybe? But it seems that alot of the characters in this were out for some sort of financial gain. That only serves to discredit a person. If anyone was trying to help find Johnny, like many of the people on this forum, they are doing it for genuine concern of the child and not for the money.

So please excuse me if I tend to want to stick to the facts in the case, that is just how I operate and it has served me well so far. Please understand that I am not saying that there was no pedo ring operating.....it seems likely that there was. But I find little weight in the argument that it goes all the way up to the President and included former Presidents both dems and repubs. Perverts are everywhere and I'm convinced in all levels of government but anything that pervasive would have been leaked one way or another. Thats my

.

 

[William R Thomas]

When I analize the evidence and circumstances about this case what stands out to me is that the photos she just received were of Johnny right after he was taken.....not three years after, not 10 years after. So with that being said I wonder if Johnny is even alive? See, if he was wouldn't someone have brought her more recent pictures to show that he had been in captivity? That he is even alive? Pedo's take pride in their conquests and pictures must exist of Johnny at a different age. Unless more pictures surface of a different time frame than the early '80's, I'm inclined to think he has passed away. Often pedo's once a child has reached a certain age of maturity dispose of their property.

Since you are proof, driven, perhaps you can offer up yours [proof] with regards to when these photos were taken?

 

[Eisbar]

You must go to this site regarding the depth of pedo's in the world.........I am truly shocked and disgusted.

www.jacobstales.com Look under the gallery at pictures of children. There may be one that you recongnise. Noreen Gosch posted this on her website.

There is a photo of what she says in Johnny on the site.

 

[Roy Harrold]

I would like to help solve this case, also.

Here's something that strikes me as very odd. There IS a viable suspect in Johnny Gosch's kidnapping. There is a person who confessed to participating in kidnapping Gosch, and to sexually assaulting Gosch in a hotel room. That person is Paul Bonacci.

I've said before, in other places, that Bonacci ought to be prosecuted for his participation in these crimes, on the basis of his confession.

But everytime I suggest this, I get swarmed by people who want to make rationalizations and excuses for Bonacci and have all these "reasons" why someone who is a convicted sex offender and confesses to kidnapping and assaulting a younger child should not be prosecuted! I find that very odd.

 

[Eisbar]

Since you are proof, driven, perhaps you can offer up yours [proof] with regards to when these photos were taken?

I stated earlier that I think that the photos were from the early '80 based on hairstyle and clothing. It would be very difficult to reproduce clothing from the early '80's even at Good Will. Hairstyles have changed. Noreen Gosch believes this picture to be her son. He disappeared wearing the same sweatpants as featured in the picture. Photoshop doctoring is good but do these look doctored to you? They seem to be to grainy to be doctored to me but what do I know.

I'll wait for proof from LE regarding the authenticity of the photos. Pictures could have been scanned into a computer and doctored I know that. But certian identifing features embedded in the photos can be extracted.

 

[William R Thomas]

I would like to help solve this case, also.

Here's something that strikes me as very odd. There IS a viable suspect in Johnny Gosch's kidnapping. There is a person who confessed to participating in kidnapping Gosch, and to sexually assaulting Gosch in a hotel room. That person is Paul Bonacci.

I've said before, in other places, that Bonacci ought to be prosecuted for his participation in these crimes, on the basis of his confession.

But everytime I suggest this, I get swarmed by people who want to make rationalizations and excuses for Bonacci and have all these "reasons" why someone who is a convicted sex offender and confesses to kidnapping and assaulting a younger child should not be prosecuted! I find that very odd.

I haven't swarmed you on this. I agree. However the problem with this is almost at the crux of the whole conspiracy/Government involvement theory: If you take one part of Paul Bonnacis story, you have to take all of it. And nobody is willing toi do that. It is simply too large and scary of a monster to let out of that cage.

If what PB says is true, a few people very high up are gonna have "sum splainin' to do"

 

[Roy Harrold]

If you take one part of Paul Bonnacis story, you have to take all of it.

Again, I disagree. That is not logical, to me.

If a suspected serial killer is arrested, and confesses to one or more killings but insists he is part of an enormous & complicated conspiracy involving government officials, corrupt police, foreign agents, blah blah - does that mean you can't prosecute him for the murders he confessed to unless you can prove the entirety of his allegations?

No. You work with what you've got, with whatever facts you have to support a prosecution. The only hard facts we have in this case, is that Paul Bonacci confessed to being a participant. That, is a verifiable and undisputed fact.

 

[FourthBase]

If a suspected serial killer is arrested, and confesses to one or more killings but insists he is part of an enormous & complicated conspiracy involving government officials, corrupt police, foreign agents, blah blah - does that mean you can't prosecute him for the murders he confessed to unless you can prove the entirety of his allegations?

No, in fact what you describe could equally be applied to Henry Lee Lucas, who was convicted for serial killings, who insisted he was part of an enormous & complicated conspiracy, insisted that he murdered hundreds not several, and was sentenced to death...oh, and then his death sentence was commuted by George W. Bush. Only time that's ever happened.

And as this forum knows, based on the example of Henry Lee Lucas and John Mark Karr, a confession is not enough to prosecute, there has to be evidence. So tell us, Roy, what's the evidence against Bonacci?

 

[thelmadawg]

There was a serial killer targeting paperboys, in the Nebraska area, at the time Johnny Gosch went missing. The FBI didn't think Gosch was one of his victims (or they couldn't prove it, primarily because there was no body) and I hope he wasn't because the fate of this maniacs victims was so horrific - but Johnny Gosch fits the profile of this guys victims and of his MO, perfectly.

John Joubert (executed)

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/john_joubert/index.html

Interesting. Offutt Air Force Base is in Bellevue, Nebraska -- about 130-40 miles from Des Moines. Easy trip. Have we heard the name of this base before in these discussions? Seems so. His MO, as far as we know, was to dump bodies. Do we know how long he was stationed in that area?

 

[maima]

Interesting. Offutt Air Force Base is in Bellevue, Nebraska -- about 130-40 miles from Des Moines. Easy trip. Have we heard the name of this base before in these discussions? Seems so. His MO, as far as we know, was to dump bodies. Do we know how long he was stationed in that area?

I can't yet find a source that states which years Joubert was stationed at Offutt AFB. Still looking for a solid timeline for him...

This is very intriguing, re: John Joubert. According to the Crime Library, Joubert's first known murder was 11-year-old Richard Stetson on August 22, 1982 in Maine. After that, Joubert went to Texas (for how long? And what happened there???). Joubert's second known victim was 13-year-old Danny Eberle on September 18, 1983 near Omaha, Nebraska.

Johnny Gosch disappeared September 5, 1982 in Des Moines, Iowa.

Joubert must have left Maine immediately after killing Richard Stetson, and if he went to Texas, he didn't stay there long if he killed Gosch in early September 1982.