Found Deceased IA - Mollie Tibbetts, 20, Poweshiek County, 19 Jul 2018 *Arrest* #46

[Confusion]

If it’s a duty of a defence lawyer to get an accused a lesser charge, what happens when they don’t? Wouldn’t that be ineffective council, if an attorney fails to perform their duty?

It’s also become very common for defendants to go to trial simply to test the prosecution’s evidence because everyone has the right to a public trial that determines their guilt as opposed to outrightly admitting guilt. If the State isn’t interested in negotiating any sort of plea bargain, this could occur here as well. In trials such as this, the defence focuses on the integrity of the prosecution’s evidence but presents no defence witnesses or evidence.

So just because CR has plead not guilty, if the case goes to trial it doesn’t mean he is obliged to come up with an alternate scenario to prove his innocence. Just the opposite - the onus is on the prosecution to prove his guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

• The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11, states: "Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.”

Presumption of innocence - Wikipedia

I think it's the attorney's responsibility to give the defendant the best possible defense. That may mean being found not guilty, it may mean getting convicted of a lesser crime or fewer crimes, it may mean getting a lower sentence or even just getting put into a better prison. It isn't their responsibility to win, but it is their responsibility to do whatever they can to achieve at least one of those goals. I really believe that in some cases there is just no defense, and the attorney isn't usually at fault. MOO

 

[MistyWaters]

I think it's the attorney's responsibility to give the defendant the best possible defense. That may mean being found not guilty, it may mean getting convicted of a lesser crime or fewer crimes, it may mean getting a lower sentence or even just getting put into a better prison. It isn't their responsibility to win, but it is their responsibility to do whatever they can to achieve at least one of those goals. I really believe that in some cases there is just no defense, and the attorney isn't usually at fault. MOO

That’s correct, the best hope for a good defence is demonstrating weakness in the prosecution’s evidence.

In this case we don’t know what that evidence is yet. But if it aligns with CRs statement but otherwise he intends on claiming some type of mental incapacity resulted in him stalking, approaching, then chasing and tackling Mollie without any prior history of mental ailments, I’m quite certain one or two prosecution experts would be available to testify about the well known effects of certain illegal drugs. Because that’s on the top of my list for a most likely cause of random aggression while “blocking” out, not that it would give him a free pass.

 

[di anna]

I recently did some research on becoming a citizen of Mexico and how to apply for citizenship. They offer nothing for insurance, food stamps, medical care, etc. You have to apply for temporary citizenship and have a certain amount of money in the bank so that you do not interupt their system and take away jobs from natives. I think it was something like 23,500.00 in the bank for temporary citizenship for just one year. You have to be able to verify this amount before you can even be considered. So they have a system for vetting people so that no one can take advantage of their country.

 

[Charliegizmo49]

MOO...the person posting may have been referring to his illegal status and suggesting that he be deported, rather than U.S. tax payers footing the bill? That's just one interpretation of the post.

That ain’t a gonna happen.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

That ain’t a gonna happen.

I know it won't happen. I was just tossing out an hypothesis as to what the commenter was getting at.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I recently did some research on becoming a citizen of Mexico and how to apply for citizenship. They offer nothing for insurance, food stamps, medical care, etc. You have to apply for temporary citizenship and have a certain amount of money in the bank so that you do not interupt their system and take away jobs from natives. I think it was something like 23,500.00 in the bank for temporary citizenship for just one year. You have to be able to verify this amount before you can even be considered. So they have a system for vetting people so that no one can take advantage of their country.

Wow! That's quite the financial hurdle. Very interesting! Thanks for posting.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I'm sorry if this has been asked. Anyone know what happened to MT's phone? TIA

 

[Charliegizmo49]

I'm sorry if this has been asked. Anyone know what happened to MT's phone? TIA

We do not know and won’t until trial.

 

[MsBetsy]

If it’s a duty of a defence lawyer to get an accused a lesser charge, what happens when they don’t? Wouldn’t that be ineffective council, if an attorney fails to perform their duty?

Ethics and Professional Responsibility - Criminal Defense Wiki

It’s also become very common for defendants to go to trial simply to test the prosecution’s evidence because everyone has the right to a public trial that determines their guilt as opposed to outrightly admitting guilt. If the State isn’t interested in negotiating any sort of plea bargain, this could occur here as well. In trials such as this, the defence focuses on the integrity of the prosecution’s evidence but presents no defence witnesses or evidence.

So just because CR has plead not guilty, if the case goes to trial it doesn’t mean he is obliged to come up with an alternate scenario to prove his innocence. Just the opposite - the onus is on the prosecution to prove his guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

• The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11, states: "Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.”

Presumption of innocence - Wikipedia

Right, I meant it's the lawyers responsibility to achieve the best outcome for his or her client, not that they MUST get a lower charge. But it's the duty of his lawyers, that's what they are there for. I'm just assuming that's the reason for the plea of not guilty.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Can you think of a possible scenario might multiple sharp force injuries might be presented as accidental?

Mollie Tibbetts autopsy finds that she died by 'multiple sharp force injuries' - CNN

On that topic, I’m hopeful the autopsy was able to reveal which of the sharp force injuries would be considered fatal as that’s significant to proving intent. For example an arm wound is not likely to cause death, as opposed to a throat or stomach wound. Otherwise even if it’s determined the totality of the injuries caused eventual death, for example by blood loss, I think LE was quite brilliant to have extracted CR’s tale about dragging and carrying her to the cornfield, then covering her up with stalks. Because if at that point she was mortally wounded and unconscious, he still intentionally caused her death by inflicting the injuries and then leaving her there.

As far as pleading guilty, I don’t think enough time has passed yet. I’m quite certain the State but especially the defence would be required to wait until all the discovery has been obtained by both parties, to ensure the evidence does indeed support his guilt and thereby eliminate the risk of later appeal. The Case Conference isn’t scheduled until December, an indication that the process slowly plods along.

No, I can't realistically think of a possible scenario under which multiple sharp force injuries would be considered accidental (although other posters have responded with some ideas based on other cases). Per definitions below of relevant terminology <portions of definitions below underlined by me>:

From dictionary.com:
ac·ci·den·tal
ˌaksəˈden(t)l/
adjective
adjective: accidental

1. 1.
   happening by chance, unintentionally, or unexpectedly.
   "a verdict of accidental death"
   synonyms: fortuitous, chance, adventitious, fluky, coincidental, casual, serendipitous, random; More
   antonyms: intentional

From Forensic Autopsy of Sharp Force Injuries: Overview, Definitions, Scene Findings:
Forensic Autopsy of Sharp Force Injuries:
Overview
Injuries produced by pointed objects or objects with sharp edges are referred to as "sharp force injuries." Sharp force injuries are characterized by a relatively well-defined traumatic separation of tissues, occurring when a sharp-edged or pointed object comes into contact with the skin and underlying tissues. Three specific subtypes of sharp force injuries exist, as follows: stab wounds, incised wounds, and chop wounds.

Sticking to these definitions to try to answer the question, MHO is that the multiple "stab, incised or chop wounds" that were identified as the cause of Mollie's death by the coroner/medical examiner could not have "happened by chance", been "unintentional" nor "unexpected". These types of mortal wounds were inflicted intentionally during a violent physical assault with a sharp weapon used to disable/assault/kill her. Period. I'm confident LE/the DA have evidence to back this up as the basis for their charge of Murder in The First Degree.

 

[MistyWaters]

Right, I meant it's the lawyers responsibility to achieve the best outcome for his or her client, not that they MUST get a lower charge. But it's the duty of his lawyers, that's what they are there for. I'm just assuming that's the reason for the plea of not guilty.

One of the reasons for the early not guilty plea is the matter of required scheduling of the Arraignment in accordance to a timeline following the arrest, 30 days it is I think.

But what makes this case somewhat unusual is how that arrest suddenly came to be. Five weeks following the disappearance of Mollie, CR was reported to be unknown to LE prior to tracing him as a potential suspect through the black Malibu. Immediately following that, his statements and the body recovery all occurred very quickly within 24 hours. So only following that would LE have the opportunity to begin a focused investigation directly pertaining to the accused.

Typically how it goes is by the time an arrest is made, LE has had their eye on the suspect for days if not weeks and much of the incriminating evidence to support the arrest has already been accumulated by that time, particularly if the body hasn’t been hidden.

As a result I think it’s just too soon to be absolutely certain a “not guilty” plea is an absolute indication this case will proceed to trial next year.

 

[MsBetsy]

One of the reasons for the early not guilty plea is the matter of required scheduling of the Arraignment in accordance to a timeline following the arrest, 30 days it is I think.

But what makes this case somewhat unusual is how that arrest suddenly came to be. Five weeks following the disappearance of Mollie, CR was reported to be unknown to LE prior to tracing him as a potential suspect through the black Malibu. Immediately following that, his statements and the body recovery all occurred very quickly within 24 hours. So only following that would LE have the opportunity to begin a focused investigation directly pertaining to the accused.

Typically how it goes is by the time an arrest is made, LE has had their eye on the suspect for days if not weeks and much of the incriminating evidence to support the arrest has already been accumulated by that time, particularly if the body hasn’t been hidden.

As a result I think it’s just too soon to be absolutely certain a “not guilty” plea is an absolute indication this case will proceed to trial next year.

Have they completed the autopsy or have there been any statements about the results being released?

 

[MistyWaters]

Have they completed the autopsy or have there been any statements about the results being released?

I didn’t notice anything reported and even if so, I recall reading somewhere that in the State of Iowa autopsies are sealed except for the manner and cause of death.

 

[Ragnarok]

Have they completed the autopsy or have there been any statements about the results being released?

Four to six weeks from day of remains recovery.

 

[MistyWaters]

Four to six weeks from day of remains recovery.

This link if from another county in Iowa. I don’t know if State pathologists/anthropologists are involved in this autopsy but I’d expect so. If so, it appears it might take quite a long time.

BBM

How soon are reports available?

“....The death certificate is available from the funeral home handling the arrangements as soon as the cause and manner of death has been established. The report of investigation (ME1) is a two or more page report that contains the information listed on the death certificate along with information about the circumstances of death. This report, along with the autopsy and toxicology reports, may take up to 12 weeks before being completed. However, every case is unique and it may take longer to complete the necessary reports. Reports are only available to the immediate next of kin. To request reports please contact our office....”
How soon are reports available? - Medical Examiner - Polk County Iowa

 

[SharonNeedles]

Looks like this discussion has pretty much died off. Not necessarily a bad thing since there’s no new info.

I’m wondering tho, is there any need at this point to film any of the areas we’ve talked about? Weather permitting I’ll be in the area tomorrow and I’m wondering if I should make some time for that.

 

[Confusion]

Is there really any need for anything we do? It would be nice to have something to discuss, and hopefully not argue about.

 

[MistyWaters]

Looks like this discussion has pretty much died off. Not necessarily a bad thing since there’s no new info.

I’m wondering tho, is there any need at this point to film any of the areas we’ve talked about? Weather permitting I’ll be in the area tomorrow and I’m wondering if I should make some time for that.

If you wouldn’t mind, even just a drive down the 1900 block of 385th ave and let us know your thoughts would be very interesting I think.

 

[Seattle1]

Looks like this discussion has pretty much died off. Not necessarily a bad thing since there’s no new info.

I’m wondering tho, is there any need at this point to film any of the areas we’ve talked about? Weather permitting I’ll be in the area tomorrow and I’m wondering if I should make some time for that.

Thanks @SharonNeedles ! I'd like to see street video of 1900 block of 385th Ave and Boundary St as all we've seen are aerial maps. I'd like to know if abduction area has blind spots or visible from homes or passerby's.

 

[d4j]

Looks like this discussion has pretty much died off. Not necessarily a bad thing since there’s no new info.

I’m wondering tho, is there any need at this point to film any of the areas we’ve talked about? Weather permitting I’ll be in the area tomorrow and I’m wondering if I should make some time for that.

The discussion will pick up as the trial approaches or whenever there are new developments.
In the meantime, it would be interesting to see
Mollie's drive from (a) her boyfriend's or family's residence
to (b) her work location at Grinnell Regional Medical Center Day Camp--
if that has not already been done.

Such a film would be nice a nice memorization of part of dear Mollie's daily life.
JMOO