ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 19

[Honest Abraham]

If it wasn't unconstitutional just what kind of dog would they use? One trained to sniff out explosives? one trained to sniff out dead bodies? one trained to sniff out drugs? one trained to follow clothing or personal item scent? one trained to follow blood trails?

I was thinking sniffing for blood to find cloths or knife

 

[10ofRods]

No, I’m kind of new to WS And Couldn’t find p41 but I Am curious as to what the difference between Targeting person or person In the House, And Targeting A House In General, First How Do They know for certain, And if this is the case Couldn’t This then be explained Away As A random attack?… If You want to kill someone, Anyone! To me That’s probably a planned random killing, And if you have someone specific To me that’s a planned targeted attack, Just never heard Of someone targeting A specific House in general… But if you can repost the FBI explanation Cause I am curious And I wonder just how They can decipher An random house or A targeted House seems pretty vague answer for LE to give

It's been posted a couple of times. Here is the link:

Making Prevention a Reality: Identifying, Assessing, and Managing the Threat of Targeted Attacks | Federal Bureau of Investigation

This report, a practical guide on assessing and managing the threat of targeted violence, contains concrete strategies to help communities prevent these types of incidents.

www.fbi.gov

I believe it's page 41. I also just posted an example of a targeted house. If you want to view such things as random, it's up to you - but the FBI classifies it differently, as do forensic investigators and LE.

Ted Bundy clearly targeted a housing situation with only young women in it for his final spree. He knew none of them.

He just wanted to have a full on frenzy of killing young women.

 

[drmrgrl]

JMO Soooooo ex roommate was told to move out? Then proceeds to get revenge by going on a crazed bloodbath murder spree butchering 4 people?

Seems at bit……………...much.

It the booting out caused a huge financial or huge strategical inconvenience for that person…If it was something that the person subjectively thought was “ unfair”…..maybe pushed that person over the edge, especially at this time of the year with exams and holidays coming up-that’s stressful enough but getting booted out. I’d say over the edge…….

 

[10ofRods]

I was thinking sniffing for blood to find cloths or knife

So, a bloodhound type of dog. They typically have to be presented with a sample to follow. IOW, they are useful in following the blood trail (scent) of the perp as they leave the house and sometimes indicate which direction the perp went in. They don't have the perp's actual scent - and the blood they have is mostly of the victims, so not sure how that could work.

If it's just "blood in general," I've never heard of such a canine, but there could be some. In that case, many dorm rooms would have the general scent of latent blood in them. I'd predict about half of them to possess that quality. If the dog alerted on a door, one would still need a search warrant to look inside for clothes or knife. Problem is, the dog would alert on many, many doors - and that is constitutionally disallowed (it's called a dragnet, or it was called that when I was growing up).

 

[drmrgrl]

The extra room mate or someone associated with them, could make sense because they would easily be able to gain entry to the house but an act of revenge would probably have been done differently, such as using a gun, setting the house on fire, beating up the victims instead of stabbing them with a knife. For me the use of the knife actually narrows the possibilities of who did this considerably because most people simply do not have this skill.

Anybody has this skill when they are over the edge and adrenaline driven. There are tons of stabbing done with rage. Sometimes a knife is the easiest instrument to find

 

[branmuffin]

RSBM I think if they had video of an unknown person who was in the area at the time of the killings, they would have asked for the person to come forward and/or asked the public for help in identifying him. If they do know who the POI is, they will likely not release a photo unless they can not locate him.
LE will usually not name a POI until they think it is highly like he had something to do with the crime.
I believe that as of yesterday, LE is still saying they do not yet have a POI.

In the Honey and Barry Sherman murders LE were very late collecting data from ring cameras, etc. The murders occurred December 13, 2017. TSP released video of an individual with a distinctive gait walking near the Sherman home four years after the murders. Even with a $10 million dollar reward from the Sherman children for information leading to arrests, the murders still haven't be solved nearly five years on.

 

[JSTANOVICE]

With the Nightstalker (Los Angeles), he targeted houses (and at least 1 condo) with ground floor windows of a certain type that are easily jimmied open. Nearly every home in the LA area had those windows if built in the early 60's up until the late 70's. We had them in our place. It was quite frightening. We were all urged to go buy dowling to put into the window channel. I went outside and easily opened the bathroom window on the ground floor (we slept upstairs). Went and got dowling.

It turns out that the doors in that same place were easy to open with a credit card, as well. I was upstairs with our baby one morning and thought my husband had come back for something, after leaving for work. So, I went downstairs in time to see a man rifling through our desk, near the front door, and he made a dash to escape as soon as he heard/saw me. Terrifying. A friend of mine discovered that while she was at work, a man was living in her condo (same type of door). When she installed a new kind of lock, he left a threatening note. She moved.

In my neighborhood, we had a series of middle-of-the-night home invasions, in which the perps (there were 2 men) kicked in the doors - all of the doors were wood framed and at least 40 years old. We changed it out for a metal frame with special screws and a metal door. We also installed a camera. Virtually every house that's been broken into in my neighborhood lacks a camera. Same for thefts from autos (we have one camera just on the driveway). Break-ins continue in our area, of course, s they do everywhere - but our house has characteristics that make it less likely to be targeted (also a cinder block wall instead of a wooden fence, and shrubbery that keeps any snooper from seeing where he'll land if he decides to try and vault that wall - he may be surprised). We get a foot chase through our neighborhood about once every year.

Meanwhile, the older couple across the street has had their house targeted on six different occasions, all of which occurred when they were away on an extended vacation in their RV. It's really obvious when their huge RV that's usually right in the front yard is gone. Everyone notices it (they are on a busy corner, also). So, we all believe it's someone local to us. They put in special fencing to protect some of the stuff (stolen from their backyard previously), but are not computer savvy and do not have cameras. Our cameras do not have the right angle to catch their house. I also believe they have been targeted in some other ways, due to the details of two of the burglaries.

There are lots of examples of this kind of thing.

If This Is The case Why does LE initially say This is An isolated event, and public shouldn’t worry, then See saw back and forth on this, If It Is The House that was targeted Then, We Have an obvious serial killer Running around NW Idaho, So This wouldn’t Be Just A one time event,

 

[Friday Fan]

From your link:
“Augusta lived there with a handful of other people, all men at the time, who were a mix of students or employees at the University of Idaho or Washington State University, or workers at nearby businesses. Augusta lived there for six months and moved out in December 2019”
I wonder if the owner/management always put same sex people in these rooms? It is a bit unsettling to me to think that a 40 year old man might be living in a house with 20 year old coeds. It is almost set up like a rooming or boarding house with private bedrooms and shared kitchen, bathroom, and living area.
This was 3 years ago, so it may be different set up now.

Thanks for pointing out his age.
I also think at age 40 would be more inclined to lock their bedroom door as opposed to a group of friends all living like a happy family.

 

[Tellyties]

I noticed it said she was the middle child of 5, but it only lists 3 of the 4 siblings names in the obit. I wonder why?

Quoting myself. I misread. It does list the four of them.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

He's very critical of LE but am not convinced he's followed it all, if you listen to hear what he's critical about

IMHO, he’s a complete embarrassment. I was completely unfamiliar with News Nation before the quadruple murder in my town & have seen some good stuff (IMHO), but this isn’t that :-(

 

[cottonweaver]

Another guess, lawyers? But they may be recognized by those media following intimately.

IDK who they are but an expert* said, when asked about when MPD would release the house ( cause they'd finished the investigation) said that some of the forensic analysts would have to fly in because ISPolice did not have all the tech & expertise for some of the complex diagnostics they will need to do.

Might be somebody like that?

* a forensics expert

btw - just had a look at Idaho reporter's twitter timeline and she says that ISP are fighting funding cuts or wtte

 

[Ghostwheel]

Exactly! You are making my point for me.

I don't expect the police to have a superhero or Sherlock holmes working for them. They are normal every day people trying to solve a very complex puzzle.

It's our responsibility to protect ourselves. The police are an assistive service but the responsibility is on us. People need information and when they ask questions the police response has been "your just gonna have to trust that we have this under control" when it looks like they do not have it under control. They don't know the killers motive so they don't know who is and is not in danger. It's that false posturing by them that I am having a problem with.

Real question. There is an unknown killer on the loose. Why wouldn't anyone( everyone) simply behave as if there is an unknown killer on the loose and deal with that according to how they deal with knowing there is an unknown killer on the loose? I, personally, would reinforce any locks I have and I would do that whether they give me any more information or not, because hey, someone just killed four people and walked out of the house so I'd want better locks. I would not go out by myself at night because there is an unknown killer out there. It wouldn't matter if that unknown killer had "targeted" the house or a person inside, there is a person who kills people on the loose and they might kill someone else to escape being caught.

Is it that you believe people aren't going to protect themselves as well if they have more information?

ETA: to clarify, I don't believe that people will hear 'We've got this under control" and decide not to protect themselves with an unknown killer on the loose. More information, less information doesn't change that there is a killer or killers out there who have absolutely nothing to lose. But I live in a place where you always assume there is some crazy out there who will kill you if the circumstances are aligned and protect myself and family accordingly.

 

[chutoy]

I am glad things have changed because when I was in college our rooms were searched during each break. and if anything was found that violated what you were allowed to have in your dorm then you were in trouble. I never knew that was illegal on behalf of the school.

It's not illegal. The housing agreement you signed and/or a student agreement you consented laid out the terms and that included these inspections.

 

[Sandy007]

I wonder if the time frame was narrowed down so quickly because one of the victims was wearing a watch and the glass/watch was broken in the attack, stopping the time in the process?

Not necessarily.

There are methods to calculate the time of death when some unknown to examiner time passed between the time when the person died and the body was discovered.

In forensic science, the time of death is one of the most crucial pieces of information that can be obtained at the crime scene and in the dissecting-room.

One of methods is based on the level of food consumed prior to death.

As M. and K. purchased some food and is known that they purchased pasta, they most likely ate that pasta carbonara some time between 1:45 (time when they purchased pasta recorded via live sream from food truck) and 2:52 am when they both switched their phones and presumambly fell asleep at that time.

If the stomach, at autopsy, is found to be filled with food, and digestion of the contents not extensive, it is reasonable to assume that death followed shortly after the meal, which i think is what ME recorded in this case: time of death within circa 1 hr of eating pasta.

If the stomach is entirely empty, death probably took place at least 4 to 6 hours after the last meal.

There are other ways to calculate time of death accurarelly.

• Calculating time of death using rigor mortis (change in the rigidity of the body); and
• Calculating time of death using algor mortis (change in the temperature of the body).

If the body feels warm and no rigor is present, death occurred under 3 hours before. If the body feels warm and stiff, death occurred 3-8 hours earlier. If the body feels cold and stiff, death occurred 8-36 hours earlier. If the body is cold and not stiff, death occurred more than 36 hours earlier.

You can find more information here

Methods of Estimation of Time Since Death - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Forensic pathologists are essentially required to estimate the time since death (TSD) to assist in death investigation by limiting the investigation period and thus helping narrow down the number of suspects in homicide cases. TSD also provides valuable information in establishing the timeline...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[drmrgrl]

Bullying would force them to want to leave

Any kind of MONEY problems or financial problems or someone getting screwed out of money is a huge motivator in killing as well.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

I am glad things have changed because when I was in college our rooms were searched during each break. and if anything was found that violated what you were allowed to have in your dorm then you were in trouble. I never knew that was illegal on behalf of the school.

it depends on when it was. Way, way back in the day, that was legal. If you want to do the math: In loco parentis - Wikipedia

a few threads back, I commented that in loco parentis is goin to rear its head on this case, and I just saw a reference to another college lawsuit (Sorry, don't remember and can't find link, but I'm using it as general reference only so sb okay). It will be interesting.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Hello all, new here after many years of lurking and having to get a new name and such. I’m with you all on the ups and downs of theories and the like, won’t rehash. I wanted to address Mr G’s interview with Martha on Fox yesterday . I think it’s in the last thread, and I haven’t figured out how to do all that again- I will learn. But I was wondering if the footprint info he was eluding to could have been a friend from home, not the ex bf? Wasn’t she just home for some period of time? He seemed to feel that someone should have responded to her that didn’t? Maybe she posted some things that Sat night he didn’t respond to or something or he’s one to say have a great day everyday but didn’t that Sunday? IDk, just a thought. Also, re the kitchen pics from DM, I don’t feel LE would pull those dishes out and singly place a spoon in a bowl and a cup etc like that for evidence collection. I think that’s how it was. I also wondered if that wasnt Kaylees boxes of stuff to take home. That would be crazy if that was how they collected evidence in one big heap. All my big fat opinion of course.

Welcome! I'm still thinking about K's dad comment like crazy. Definitely sounds like a digital/tech footprint he's talking about.

And if after the crime, it must be something directed/connected to K and not "from" K... things going through my mind:

- Maybe one of her SM accounts/emails was logged in by someone other than her (not phone records)
- Or something similar, maybe an email or text as marked read post mortem so killer was looking through phone
- Or a text or call sent from K's phone post mortem
- Someone posted or sent a condolences, RIP or something relating to murder before it was announced
- Inappropriately or insensitively tagged in a photo or referenced in social media in bad taste after the murder

 

[chutoy]

it depends on when it was. Way, way back in the day, that was legal. If you want to do the math: In loco parentis - Wikipedia

a few threads back, I commented that in loco parentis is goin to rear its head on this case, and I just saw a reference to another college lawsuit (Sorry, don't remember and can't find link, but I'm using it as general reference only so sb okay). It will be interesting.

It is still legal: students sign housing agreements that detail terms. Just in the same way a landlord can require periodic inspections of a property in ways not precluded by federal or state law, colleges / residential schools absolutely can inspect rooms.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

IMO, Jeremy is somewhat enjoying his 15-minutes of fame. He's a law student, so one would think he would say nothing and hire a lawyer.

More exposure for his future law business perhaps?

 

[thatssoamy]

Not necessarily.

There are methods to calculate the time of death when some unknown to examiner time passed between the time when the person died and the body was discovered.

In forensic science, the time of death is one of the most crucial pieces of information that can be obtained at the crime scene and in the dissecting-room.

One of methods is based on the level of food consumed prior to death.

As M. and K. purchased some food and is known that they purchased pasta, they most likely ate that pasta carbonara some time between 1:45 (time when they purchased pasta recorded via live sream from food truck) and 2:52 am when they both switched their phones and presumambly fell asleep at that time.

If the stomach, at autopsy, is found to be filled with food, and digestion of the contents not extensive, it is reasonable to assume that death followed shortly after the meal, which i think is what ME recorded in this case: time of death within circa 1 hr of eating pasta.

If the stomach is entirely empty, death probably took place at least 4 to 6 hours after the last meal.

There are other ways to calculate time of death accurarelly.

• Calculating time of death using rigor mortis (change in the rigidity of the body); and
• Calculating time of death using algor mortis (change in the temperature of the body).

If the body feels warm and no rigor is present, death occurred under 3 hours before. If the body feels warm and stiff, death occurred 3-8 hours earlier. If the body feels cold and stiff, death occurred 8-36 hours earlier. If the body is cold and not stiff, death occurred more than 36 hours earlier.

You can find more information here

Methods of Estimation of Time Since Death - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Forensic pathologists are essentially required to estimate the time since death (TSD) to assist in death investigation by limiting the investigation period and thus helping narrow down the number of suspects in homicide cases. TSD also provides valuable information in establishing the timeline...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I know this but the autopsies were performed on the Tuesday and the 3-4am was mentioned before that.