ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - # 25

[desert-blue]

Well, there might be some hope of barring people (their vehicles, anyway) from going up to the campground. According to the USDA Forest Service website, open season for Timber Creek Campground is 5/15 - 10/15 (mid-May to mid-October): http://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/scnf/recreation/camping-cabins/recarea/?recid=76100&actid=29. I've been on Forest Service roads here in Idaho before during off season only to come upon a closed and locked iron gate MILES from the campground I was headed to. I am hoping that this is the case and that there is a locked gate until mid-May that vehicles cannot get beyond. Of course, that would not deter folks from leaving their vehicles at the gate and just walking in, but likely the gate and campground are miles apart (in my case, we had to leave our vehicle 3 miles behind at the gate while we hiked in to the campground). In that case, you would need a prepared and determined person who was willing to pack in everything they needed to do their search for DeOrr, not knowing how long their hike could be. Those gates are a huge deterrent for SOME people (not myself and my husband, since we are experienced hikers).

I hope this campground has a gate (many do, but this one is so primitive it's hard to say). I'm assuming the campground was left open until October 15th, though? The only way to get to the campground during the winter is with a snowmobile. Depending on the weather, I'm guessing the road won't be passable for vehicles (with 4 x 4) until the end of March, at the very very earliest and could be well into April.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

I'm not so sure there are any restrictions at the campground, hence the LE requests for keeping away. Plus the family and media were up there at the end of October.

 

[Jackeee]

Good morning everyone. Just marking my spot. Every time I come here I'm hoping that today will be the day when all becomes clear. Bless you little DeOrr.

 

[ConcernedCitizenID]

I hope this campground has a gate (many do, but this one is so primitive it's hard to say). I'm assuming the campground was left open until October 15th, though? The only way to get to the campground during the winter is with a snowmobile. Depending on the weather, I'm guessing the road won't be passable for vehicles (with 4 x 4) until the end of March, at the very very earliest and could be well into April.

I really don't think it's all that "primitive." There is a toilet, for one. That is luxurious when camping! Personally, I am accustomed to parking my car and hiking in 7-8 hours into the back country and finding my own little spot to set up camp. THAT is primitive. Any place labeled "campground" with a fire pit and toilet + you can drive right up to it with your vehicle? Luxury accommodations right there.

This picture from the first big search tells me EVERYTHING I need to know about the campground and how "difficult" it is to get there: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015...for_the_tot_spanning_-a-179_1436909481404.jpg Any place that you can drive a passenger car to, or an ambulance (def not a vehicle typically made for rough, off road travel) or a truck pulling a horse trailer is definitely fairly easily accessible.

 

[ConcernedCitizenID]

Yes, and there is usually a "trail" created from atvs/horses/cattle. While it would not be inconceivable for someone to bypass the locked gates I have a strong suspicion that there are game-cams set up in various areas by this point. An Amazon search "solar hunting game cam" can give you an idea if you are not familiar. They are camouflaged, motion activated & night vision capable.
To everyone I've talked to about this- just casual friend & family conversation when it comes on the news or something- the general consensus is that there are definitely cameras up there. There has been no official statement, of course if they suspect someone to go up & tamper they are going to keep their mouths shut & watch the cams.
There are some very expensive satellite link cams, as well as cams that use SD cards. Since there is some cell service up there perhaps the cams are capable of wifi transmission too. Maybe the FBI offered some surveillance equipment?

From this March 1st news release: http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/03/kunz-investigator-jessica-mitchell-knows-where-deorrs-body-is/

Eaton: Where does the investigation go from here?

Klein: We’re going to Phase 4 of this case. It’s the actual ground hunt. We know an area that we will be going into. We will probably be up there with different teams within the next 30 days.

We do have those places we’re going to hunt under surveillance to make sure nobody comes in and nobody goes out of those areas.

 

[desert-blue]

I really don't think it's all that "primitive." There is a toilet, for one. That is luxurious when camping! Personally, I am accustomed to parking my car and hiking in 7-8 hours into the back country and finding my own little spot to set up camp. THAT is primitive. Any place labeled "campground" with a fire pit and toilet + you can drive right up to it with your vehicle? Luxury accommodations right there.

This picture from the first big search tells me EVERYTHING I need to know about the campground and how "difficult" it is to get there: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015...for_the_tot_spanning_-a-179_1436909481404.jpg Any place that you can drive a passenger car to, or an ambulance (def not a vehicle typically made for rough, off road travel) or a truck pulling a horse trailer is definitely fairly easily accessible.

Totally agree - maybe primitive wasn't the correct word.... just that it's kind of off the beaten track, so to speak, and not heavily used, so there might not be a real need for a gate...

Bigger campgrounds that are right off the highway often have a gate to keep people out during off-season.

 

[TeaTime]

BeezNeez - good post. I too often wonder 'what if they are innocent and the baby simply wandered away?' which can happen even when there are many people around. How many times have we seen toddlers wander off, searchers look for days and no one finds the child? Of course we have all been tainted by the evil ones who toss babies in trash heaps and swamps but there are many where the child simply wanders away and isn't found for years - if ever.

Yes, I know what SB has said but even he is not 100% behind any theory. <modsnip> with a grain of salt as I do anything said by Klein. Theories abound but none of them add up to a hill of beans.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

http://www.fs.usda.gov/generalinfo/...cabins/generalinfo/?groupid=94139&recid=76050



Camping is permitted after 10/15

 

[ConcernedCitizenID]

http://www.fs.usda.gov/generalinfo/...cabins/generalinfo/?groupid=94139&recid=76050

Camping is permitted after 10/15

This link you posted was for the UPPER Timber Creek Campground. I believe they were at the lower campground: http://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/scnf/recarea/?recid=76100. No matter, they have the area under surveillance, according to Klein, so a gate isn't really needed.

 

[desert-blue]

http://www.fs.usda.gov/generalinfo/...cabins/generalinfo/?groupid=94139&recid=76050

View attachment 90363

Camping is permitted after 10/15

That makes sense if it's used by hunters.

 

[12madelyn]

BeezNeez - good post. I too often wonder 'what if they are innocent and the baby simply wandered away?' which can happen even when there are many people around. How many times have we seen toddlers wander off, searchers look for days and no one finds the child? Of course we have all been tainted by the evil ones who toss babies in trash heaps and swamps but there are many where the child simply wanders away and isn't found for years - if ever.

Yes, I know what SB has said but even he is not 100% behind any theory. Yes, I know the ex-husband is hating on JM but I take what he says with a grain of salt as I do anything said by Klein. Theories abound but none of them add up to a hill of beans.

But why would the parents stories change?

 

[Beezneez]

But why would the parents stories change?

We don't know. We might not find out until a trial. We might not ever find out.
I know that sitting here, as a law abiding citizen, under relatively little stress I would have no problem keeping a story straight. I have also seen people scared and stressed & maybe not quite on the right side of the moral/legal line try to give an explanation that circles around the truth. People with hurt kids who were maybe not attending to the children properly try to absolve themselves of responsibility, while also obtaining help for their kid.
That is where I come to a big problem in this- either they neglected appropriate help seeking behavior & covers their butts OR the 911 calls were sincere attempts at getting help, but sometime before LE arrived they found him/realized it was too late & covered it up.
There is a really deep seeded selfishness to hide the body of anyone, especially a child, after an accident.

 

[Cardinal47]

I'm sure people have used the campground since July 10th. It is open from May 15th to October 15th, and to my knowledge it wasn't blocked or closed to the public after July 10th? With all the searchers and the family going up on weekends all summer and early fall, it's hard to think anything could be pristine. It sounds like the areas they want to search after the thaw might be within the previous search radius, too (although it's not clear, and I doubt they want anyone to know the area(s) they're interested in searching). Whatever evidence that might be left is worth preserving, though. I hope DeOrr is found soon.

Maybe I'm not following along as well as I should but I seem to get really mixed signals from everybody as far as 'the crime scene'.

I remember back in Sept a search was organized and they had a account to pay for some person and maybe a dog that was to be flown in. It was approved but at the last minute SB said no and everything was cancelled. Why?

The Mitchells and the Kunz have been back and forth and now they want to lock the gates? Makes no sense to me.

Also I still have no idea how somebody could dump cremains during a search for a missing child with everybody up there and lots of police presence.

That has always been a mystery to me. Do they want searchers or don't they?

Now Klein is saying TES is coming this Spring. From what I know about them both LE and the family have to request them. Has that been done by both of them.

Sometimes it seems like they are locking the barn door after the cow has escaped.

 

[Hatfield]

We don't know. We might not find out until a trial. We might not ever find out.
I know that sitting here, as a law abiding citizen, under relatively little stress I would have no problem keeping a story straight. I have also seen people scared and stressed & maybe not quite on the right side of the moral/legal line try to give an explanation that circles around the truth. People with hurt kids who were maybe not attending to the children properly try to absolve themselves of responsibility, while also obtaining help for their kid.
That is where I come to a big problem in this- either they neglected appropriate help seeking behavior & covers their butts OR the 911 calls were sincere attempts at getting help, but sometime before LE arrived they found him/realized it was too late & covered it up.
There is a really deep seeded selfishness to hide the body of anyone, especially a child, after an accident.

Re BBM
Its much more than selfishness. It is criminal. Moving the body or corpse of a deceased and especially if you are responsible for the death in any way, shape, or form is criminal behavior and appropriate charges will be filed. Abuse of a corpse at a minimum.

I understand what some are saying though that there is always a very minute chance that the parents could have been telling the truth but all I have to do when I begin to think that way is to remember 2 facts and 1 other important thing.

FACT 1-The parents failed multiple lie detector which were administered by both regular LE and FBI. Not just inconclusive results like IR + GGP. The parents results were they in fact lied on the tests according to SB. Multiple tests.

FACT 2-SB saying the parents had inconsistent stories in personal interviews he had with them.
That means they told LE different stories directly to LE.

3-And finally we can watch for ourselves the main first interview with the parents. We can judge for ourselves whether we think we are being told the truth there. That is if you can even figure out what he is trying to say through all the extra non important stuff he throws in. VDK would not let JM answer many questions so we mostly have just VDK to analyze there. Which is enough to form an opinion. This interview allows us to judge for ourselves whether we think they are telling us the whole true story or not. It is not something we can use in a court of law but it does provide a hint of whether we think they know where the boy is or not.

And when you compare their interview with the interview IR gave there is a dramatic difference. IR came across to me as sincere and even though he was directed not to answer much the few questions he did answer he seemed very sincere. It is quite a contrast to his interview and VDK/JM interview.

So when I begin to think about the small chance the parents do not know where the boy is then I remind myself of these 3 things.

 

[Rayemonde]

Good post, Hatfield.

And in this case, hiding the body if DeOrr had truly died in a simple accident would not only be abuse of a corpse - there's also making false reports to LE and the FBI and soliciting money. All the time, effort and money that has gone into searching for Deorr on behalf of SAR, LE, the FBI and volunteers; all the people who have been betrayed; the extended family whose lives have been turned upside down and are facing public scrutiny and suspicion; the public who have tried to help find DeOrr and who will be more skeptical about supporting missing child cases in the future...
JMO.

 

[12madelyn]

I had not realized, until poking around today, that PI Vilt thinks the baby was adopted out. I believe IR when he says little DeOrr was at the cg, but perhaps the parents left with him to "go to the store" and returned without him. IR wasn't necessarily looking for him when they returned and could have been a little ways off by himself and busy fishing. I guess this is very plausible.

 

[Onebest]

I'm sure people have used the campground since July 10th. It is open from May 15th to October 15th, and to my knowledge it wasn't blocked or closed to the public after July 10th? With all the searchers and the family going up on weekends all summer and early fall, it's hard to think anything could be pristine. It sounds like the areas they want to search after the thaw might be within the previous search radius, too (although it's not clear, and I doubt they want anyone to know the area(s) they're interested in searching). Whatever evidence that might be left is worth preserving, though. I hope DeOrr is found soon.

The planned search area may not where anyone thinks it is...then it could very well be pristine and untouched. I hope with all my heart Deoor is found.

Also for those that wonder, I am no expert but it is my understanding is that no matter what is said, the Sheriff is in charge of any searches that are allowed, any and all organizations and resources need his approval to proceed in any manner. Its Sheriff Bowermans county, his case, his crime scene and he is the top authority. JMO.

 

[Dee10]

Good post Hatfield & Raymonde, it boggles my mind when people take a contrarian view to the point that defies not only logic, but (to me) is disrespectful to the true victim the missing or murdered person and sympathy goes to the accused. Maybe some people have had bad experiences with LE & I have not IDK. I understand how you can wisk-away one thing as a one-off, but item after item surely adds up. I guess everyone has different math skills and if you end up wrong, tune-up your skills to try & do better. We are all human and trust and try to help others; it's important to learn how to decipher so you help the right victim and also not become a victim yourself IMO.

 

[Onebest]

Regarding The power of the Sheriff:
This article is a lot more extensive but it includes a great description of what being the Sheriff actually means. So for Baby Deoors case, no matter what a PI might states HE has planned, if its not scantioned by the county Sheriff it doesnt mean much more then a suggestion or a request to be allowed to proceed.

http://constitutionallawenforcementassoc.blogspot.com/

"The office of sheriff has a long and noble history. It dates back over a thousand years and originated in England. The sheriff is the only elected law enforcement official in America. He is the last line of defense for his citizens. He is the people's protector. He is the keeper of the peace, he is the guardian of liberty and the protector of rights. A vast majority of sheriffs will agree with all of this until they are asked to apply these principles of protection to federal criminals. Their backpeddling and excuses will be more plentiful than radar tickets and louder than sirens at doughnut time. Most of the unbelievers, who themselves have taken a solemn oath to "uphold and defend" the U S Constitution, will passionately and even apologetically exclaim that they have no authority or jurisdiction to tell federal agents to do anything, let alone stop them from victimizing local citizens. The truth and stark reality is that it's just the opposite; the sheriff has ultimate authority and law enforcement power within his jurisdiction. He is to protect and defend his citizens from all enemies, both "foreign and domestic."

 

[DexterMorgan]

Imo. The sheriff is in charge until the feds takes over the case. So did the feds take over the case or just assisted with the case?

I know that the same thing happened with the Jessica chambers case. The feds helped while leaving the decisions and crap storm to the LE of that county.

So imo. It seems like the fbi will help a case. But they sometimes don't officially take over the case.

But imo. If you pay federal taxes and the fbi can be used to help solve a case. Then our tax dollars should mandate that the feds stay on board and be accountable until the case is closed. Jmo.

So bottom line. All people that pay irs taxes; should have mandatory cooperation of the fbi to help on their case. Regardless of if it is a state case or not.

Especially since the fbi is paid by the federal taxes that we pay out each year. Jmo.

And I truly think that the local LE should always remind the feds of this as well. Jmo