ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #27

[neesaki]

I can't say I'm surprised the memorial got removed. Let's be honest, the blue spray painted rocks were an eyesore. They should have just brought that stump up there and called it good. I bet it would still be up there if that's all they did.

Below is an article about vandalism with spray paint in a national forest. What they did obviously was different from graffiti, but they still spray painted rocks. Not sure where the line is drawn.
http://www.sltrib.com/news/2438614-155/rangers-cracking-down-on-rock-face-vandalism

Well, I wasn't going to say it, but since you did... I concur. I was thinking graffiti though. And, done mainly for show, IMO.

 

[Russian Blue]

Just speculating


-the camping trip seemed like a rushed trip. When people go camping there is usually lots of planning to take things and get ready. This trip was rushed. He even allegedly had to call in sick to work and if it would have been planned then he could have just asked for the day off in advance.

-We heard nothing of charcoal, tents, sleeping bags, camping food like hot dogs marshmallows, bug spray, flashlights, ice. Practically any normal camping gear was not brought from what we know.

-See here is the thing. When people go camping they go for fun. So they plan ahead and bring all the normal stuff to have a good time. We heard nothing from them about anything like that. The only person who brought anything like that was the person who was fooled. IR. He managed to bring along his fishing gear and I bet he had to rush to get that since the trip seemed rush planning.



-I really think they thought they could generate funds and make money off of this like in other cases that make national news. I think their plan was they would get tons of money by setting up ******** site and make a bunch of money off of this. But what happened is they did not count on some things that happened.

-For one the case did not initially take off like other major national cases. It took a few days to almost a week before the case started to gain traction. By then some rumors started to happen that got them scared. Very scared. So when they went on that interview about a week later it was mainly to try and convince others they had a lost boy and they were still hoping the case would take off nationally to generate funds. All it accomplished was causing more suspicouns on them and LE started to question things too. The public never did jump on board to throw a bunch of money at them. Especially when they did not want to even put out a reward. That was a big sign that things were not as they tried to make them appear to be.

-Their big mistake was assuming the case would take off nationally and become this huge deal. What people like them fail to realize is that only a select few cases gain the kind of national attention that some gain. And nobody can force that to happen. It happens on its own if its going to happen at all. There is some magic and mystery into why some cases become huge and others not so much. Nobody can force it to happen. There has to be all the right elements of a case and the stars have to align just right and by some special reasons the public and news media take off on certain select few cases. Very few cases this happens on. And people cannot force it to happen. That was their mistake in assuming it would happen for them.

-So once they finally realized it would never happen for them they just wanted to crawl back in their hole and be left alone. But the other mistake they made is not realizing that some caring people will never give up on the BOY. This is about Deorr Jr and nobody else now. The boy will never be forgotten. And those caring people will always try to give him justice. LE and other caring people will work until the boy gets his true story told. He is calling out to everyone to get his true story told.

And that story does not involve walking off on his own with too large of boots on. Nope that is the furthest thing from what really happened to him.

As far as it being "rushed trip". I don't think LE or any of the investigators have said this. So not sure where that impression comes from. The planning piece of the trip that I find faulty is not having diapers and tampons. Foreseeable needs especially in the diaper dept.

Regarding the idea to make money off of this. I don't know. One of the private investigators took issue with the parents reluctance to take this national with a bigger reward and really work the press on it. Especially when they were starting to propose that he had been abducted. I really don't think they wanted that national attention. And while they did solicited for funds or they were solicited on their behalf. The investigators were the ones initially trying to get help to blow up nationally. Unless I have this all wrong and I am sure someone will jump on me for it if I do.. I think they were hiding what happened, keep it local, it will blow over, he will never be found. And one day a distant memory.

 

[neesaki]

As far as it being "rushed trip". I don't think LE or any of the investigators have said this. So not sure where that impression comes from. The planning piece of the trip that I find faulty is not having diapers and tampons. Foreseeable needs especially in the diaper dept.

Regarding the idea to make money off of this. I don't know. One of the private investigators took issue with the parents reluctance to take this national with a bigger reward and really work the press on it. Especially when they were starting to propose that he had been abducted. I really don't think they wanted that national attention. And while they did solicited for funds or they were solicited on their behalf. The investigators were the ones initially trying to get help to blow up nationally. Unless I have this all wrong and I am sure someone will jump on me for it if I do.. I think they were hiding what happened, keep it local, it will blow over, he will never be found. And one day a distant memory.

I think your last two sentences pretty much say it like it is. ".....they were hiding what happened, keep it local, it will blow over, he will never be found. And one day a distant memory". I unfortunately believe this is most likely the case, which is beyond sad and incomprehensible to me. I, as well as most people, treat their beloved cats and dogs better. :cry: Jmo

 

[Eloise]

That is my opinion. I really think they thought that after Deorr wasn't found everyone would just assume he would never be found, and give up.

 

[Little Ol Me]

I've read some comments that state that no diapers were brought on the camping trip.
I can't recall hearing or reading this as something stipulated as accurate. Is it something known as fact, or is it speculation?
Just wondering if I missed it.

 

[turtlefur]

I'm not sure? I remember people wondering why there was only one dirty/wet diaper found. But in my personal experience, that makes sense IF DeOrr was potty training. My 26.5 month old daughter has been potty trained for awhile but still wears a diaper just at night since she still once in a while will have accidents.


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[travelbug]

I'm not sure? I remember people wondering why there was only one dirty/wet diaper found. But in my personal experience, that makes sense IF DeOrr was potty training. My 26.5 month old daughter has been potty trained for awhile but still wears a diaper just at night since she still once in a while will have accidents.


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IMHO part of the skepticism regarding the dirty diaper is because Grandma was the only person who mentioned it and she disposed of it immediately. It is difficult to believe that, in an era with a DNA focus, anyone would destroy evidence that could assist dogs and trackers and LE.

 

[courtfollower89]

I don't believe it for a minute. They both could have walked away at any time, either set of grand parents would have raised him I'm sure.

Without child support or wage garnishment for medical expenses and care for him? Being labeled as "those people" in town. In society today it happens yes but not without being branded in some way or another IMO. Some people just kill as a way out.

Megan Huntsman suffocated six of her newborn babies from 1996 to 2006. A search of court records revealed that apart from a 2011 traffic citation, Huntsman had no criminal record.

In 1987, using a kitchen knife and a “metal toy airplane,” South Dakotan*Debra Jenner-Tyler*stabbed her three-year-old daughter Abby Lynn 70 times, killing her. Jenner-Tyler claimed she “had been working a lot,” was “under a lot of stress,” and that her daughter had been acting “very finicky.”

The human mind is very complex. None of us know what did or did not take place. All we know is Deorr is missing presumed deceased and his guardians were responsible for his well being. We don't know the mental state of these two then or now either IMO of course.

 

[Eloise]

You're right courtfollower, that some people do see murder as the only way out. They think they won't get caught, I suppose. But here we are, Deorr still not found yet LE saying they believe they did it anyway. You always get found out. Better to be the parents who realized they weren't very good for their kid and gave that kid up - even if people judge you for that, so what - than murderers. Better that Deorr had a life of his own than no life at all. But I guess they just don't get the logic of that.

 

[KatieLiz]

If you map directions on google maps you will see that it is far more than an hour and a half drive between the two. From Idaho Falls to Montpelier is 137miles and depending on the route taken it is 2 hr 6 min to 2 hrs 45 min. From Idaho Falls to Timbercreek campground it is 2 hrs 15 min by quickest route. From Montpelier to Timbercreek is 4 hrs 8 min. Check google maps.

So no it really isn't feasible they went to Montpelier to dispose of baby DeOrr and went back to Leadore. They were in Montpelier in June of 2015, and that is a possible reason JM said the name of the motel in Montpelier.

I wasn't suggesting they did it in the same trip. I think there is a chance Deorr was killed in the day or two before the trip. I think it's quite possible "Snake River" and/or "Clover Leaf" were Freudian slips. What I was suggesting was that it was possible that Deorr is actually in the opposite direction from Idaho Falls. And the trip to Leadore is a diversion to draw attention away from either a crime scene in Idaho Falls or a disposal location elsewhere. I have many theories... Some of which Deorr was at the campsite "in some capacity"... My other theory is that he was never there at all. There's too many stories in the air for me to be able to commit to only one theory. But I'll tell you what I don't believe...'I don't believe Deorr was clomping around the campsite in too-big boots, throwing things into the fire, flirting with people in stores in Leadore, or sleeping in the truck with JM and VDK. Just my opinion.

 

[Lillahazel]

Round and round we go. For the fellow posters who are pushing for an arrest, please. Law enforcement doesn't bow to that kind of pressure. Once they make arrests they better have a solid case put together. If law enforcement arrests them on something lame like obstruction they can't in 6 months arrest them for murder. If this case goes stone cold you might see a token arrest and hope someone confesses, if they don't you have fired all of your bullets and will never be able to charge the same people for an additional crime later (double jeopardy).

I think we are all frustrated and want to see the hot lights shined on these cockroaches but I'd much rather let LE, Klein, etc. gather all the evidence they can so that true justice can be served. If no body is recovered the prosecution is going to need all kinds of supporting evidence to get any real charges to stick, this is a marathon not a sprint.

Did anyone else notice that Klein quoted your "this is not a sprint this is a marathon" quote in a response about double jeopardy on FB the day after you wrote this.

 

[white rabbit]

yes!!!

 

[Butler]

I've read some comments that state that no diapers were brought on the camping trip.
I can't recall hearing or reading this as something stipulated as accurate. Is it something known as fact, or is it speculation?
Just wondering if I missed it.

This one diaper thing came from a comment about TBC asking LE if she could throw away one diaper she found in a trash bag of a church group who had come up to Timbercreek to provide food for searchers. Nothing in that one statement said there was only one diaper at the campsite or that the parents failed to bring any other diapers. I'm not sure if there was a trash can at the campsite or if campers were expected to carry everything out. In Idaho some FS campsites have them and some don't. So yes, not fact, just speculation.

 

[FinallyRegistered]

This one diaper thing came from a comment about TBC asking LE if she could throw away one diaper she found in a trash bag of a church group who had come up to Timbercreek to provide food for searchers. Nothing in that one statement said there was only one diaper at the campsite or that the parents failed to bring any other diapers. I'm not sure if there was a trash can at the campsite or if campers were expected to carry everything out. In Idaho some FS campsites have them and some don't. So yes, not fact, just speculation.

But that's not the complete story, either. TBC said there was one diaper, but she also said that she was not sure if it was a child's diaper or an adult diaper.

 

[Deleted member 278]

But that's not the complete story, either. TBC said there was one diaper, but she also said that she was not sure if it was a child's diaper or an adult diaper.

And Klein said no other diapers were found.

 

[desert-blue]

I have always suspected that DeOrr never made it to the campground due to the fact that no trace of him has been found - no scent, no toys, no boots, no nothing. It's as if he was never there because he never was there. Previously I was of the opinion that he may have died on the drive up to the campground or sometime in the middle of the night Thursday/Friday, but I am starting to lean towards him being deceased prior to the trip. It seems that the parents did not pack toys (or apparently diapers) or anything else that a two-year-old would need for an extended camping trip. Therefore, I think he was deceased prior to the trip. I'm getting hung up on whether the camping trip was previously planned for Grandpa and Isaac, and the timing worked out perfectly for the parents to dispose of his body so they decided at the last minute to "tag along," or whether the whole camping trip was entirely staged from the get-go as a means to play out the disappearance. It's my opinion that Trina is lying about it being her idea for Jessica to go along to help her grandpa. I think it was Jessica's idea to go (knowing it would provide a way to stage DeOrr's "disappearance" - "hey mom, why don't DeOrr and Little Man and me go along with grandpa, just to make sure he's okay? That way you don't have to worry about him? I'm glad to go and help") and then she later told her mom to just tell investigators that it was her (Trina's) idea for them to go so it wouldn't look suspicious. I think Trina has said and done many things that aren't entirely true in order to steer the investigation away from her daughter and away from finding the truth (the diaper story, the camping trip being her idea, refusing a reward, not changing his eye color, befriending law enforcement, etc.) because she figured out that baby DeOrr wasn't alive and that her daughter was involved. I think she went into protection mode and tried to put out the social media fire. For awhile Jessica's sister played along too - claiming she saw video of DeOrr in the Stage Stop, for example. Jessica probably told her sister there was surveillance and to tell folks that she had seen the video, just to quiet the naysayers. I think her sister caught on pretty quickly and quietly distanced herself from the case. Trina is still at it. It seems she is now bringing up things like the EMT bag, the cremains, the unmonitored comings and goings of vehicles and people during the searching, etc. These comments seem to be undermining the investigation and suggesting that someone else could have harmed or taken DeOrr away from the campground (i.e. reasonable doubt). It seems she is now working on the defense, in case her daughter is ever charged.

As for what happened to DeOrr? If we believe that Trina saw him alive and well on Wednesday night (when Jessica was helping clean out the camp trailer for grandpa, not at that time thinking she was also going camping) then I think something happened to him late that night or on Thursday. If Vernal was truly away helping his boss move, then I am wondering if something happened to DeOrr under Jessica's watch. She then called Vernal and told him they HAD to go camping to take care of her grandpa and when Vernal got home, he realized why they REALLY had to go "camping." So, the question is, did they dispose of DeOrr around Idaho Falls (Snake River?) before they left on the trip? Did they put DeOrr in something and dispose of him on the way up to Leadore? Did they drive somewhere in the middle of the night (using up a lot of fuel) and dispose of him? So many possibilities. The fact that Jessica may have turned off her phone all night is a red flag to me. I'm leaning towards them doing something with his body in the middle of the night. However, that is a huge window of time and who knows where to start looking.

The biggest dilemma I'm having with all of this is why on earth Bob and Isaac claim DeOrr was there... that is a mystery to me.... It doesn't sound like the parents really tried to fool them by saying DeOrr was sleeping in the truck or anything like that. I think Bob could have been coerced into covering and lying if Trina requested him to do so (or convinced him that DeOrr was there, if he has memory issues). I don't sense that Bob would cover solely for Jessica and Vernal without Trina's involvement (and it's been said by LE that she's not a POI, although it is interesting that she was given a polygraph). I do think Bob could in turn coerce Isaac to cover for them, but it really makes me wonder why they (the parents) would add these two men into the mix when they could have just gone "camping" alone. Although if they were all alone, they would have to admit they were the ones not watching DeOrr and they couldn't place the blame on someone else. So, maybe Bob and Isaac were just puppets in the play. Whatever the case, it's certainly a twisted game.

ETA: The thought just crossed my mind that perhaps when Jessica was helping clean out the camp trailer, maybe Trina suggested to Jessica that she and Vernal go with Grandpa and Isaac and Jessica told her they couldn't go because they had other plans, but then when something happened to DeOrr, she called Trina and said that she had changed her mind and that her family would actually go on the camping trip? So, that would still make the idea Trina's but maybe Jessica didn't take her up on the offer until right before the trip?

Also adding that this is all just my opinions and thoughts at the moment....

 

[ReadySet]

Excellent post, desert-blue. The problem we find ourselves in is that there have been a mountain of lies told, imo. I think it's human nature to try to believe someone as much as possible, even if we recognize there are some lies being told. So I believed some, or even a lot, of what JMA and VK said. They coudn't be lying about everything, I thought. But now I think that the whole story was a lie. Each lie supported another lie, and, like a stack of jenga blocks, LE pulled one out and the whole stack came down.

 

[ReadySet]

If GGPa and IR are covering for the suspects, and I'm on the fence about that, I don't have a hard time understanding why.

Just speculation here:

Could TBC have said something like this to her father: You owe me! You know you do! Where would you be without me? And where will you be if I don't take care of you? You'll be out on your own, you know you can't take of yourself, and I'll make sure none of our family has anything to do with you! And remember, I never told about you.You owe me!

Could GGPa have said something like this to IR: I've been there for you. I'm your only friend! I'm the only one who hasn't deserted you! Who picked you up when you were down and out? Me! Who was there for you when you were sick, when you needed help, money, a friend? Me! Your family doesn't help you, you don't have any other friends. And remember, I never told about you. You owe me.

ETA: flagging my own post. Hard to keep track of what is allowed

 

[desert-blue]

Excellent post, desert-blue. The problem we find ourselves in is that there have been a mountain of lies told, imo. I think it's human nature to try to believe someone as much as possible, even if we recognize there are some lies being told. So I believed some, or even a lot, of what JMA and VK said. They coudn't be lying about everything, I thought. But now I think that the whole story was a lie. Each lie supported another lie, and, like a stack of jenga blocks, LE pulled one out and the whole stack came down.

Exactly. There are so many lies, it's impossible to try to sort anything out...

I am so baffled at the testimony of Isaac. I guess I have a really hard time thinking that he is totally lying also. What would be his motive? Is he that loyal to Bob? Or he is truly that pliable? The other issue I have with Bob and Isaac being puppets is that I really cannot imagine that Vernal and Jessica are smart enough and conniving enough to have masterminded this whole thing on their own in such a short amount of time. But the alternative is that someone else is involved and yet no one else has been named a POI....

 

[desert-blue]

ReadySet, I didn't see your post before I replied. I do think your scenarios are absolutely plausible. I wish we knew more about whether anyone else could possibly be involved in the cover-up.