ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #3

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Wolves may not attack humans often, but I just betcha a small child, all alone would make a tempting target.

After reading this, a wolf attack doesn't seem as unlikely as I previously thought. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_attacks_on_humans#Non-rabid

Unprovoked wolf attacks motivated by hunger are categorized as "predatory". In some such cases, a cautious wolf may launch "investigative" or "exploratory" attacks to test the victim for suitability as prey. As with defensive attacks, such attacks are not always pressed, as the animal may break off the attack or be convinced to look elsewhere for its next meal.[14] In contrast, during "determined" predatory attacks, the victims may be repeatedly bitten on the head and face and dragged off and consumed, sometimes as far away as 1-2.5 km from the attack site, unless the wolf or wolves are driven off.[14][15] Experts in India use the term "child lifting" to describe predatory attacks in which the animal silently enters a hut while everyone is sleeping, picks up a child, often with a silencing bite to the mouth and nose, and carries a child off by the head.[15] Such attacks typically occur in local clusters, and generally do not stop until the wolves involved are eliminated.[14]

Predatory attacks can occur at any time of the year, with a peak in the June–August period, when the chances of people entering forested areas (for livestock grazing or berry and mushroom picking) increase,[18][13]

A worldwide 2002 study by the Norwegian Institute of Nature Research showed that 90% of victims of predatory attacks were children under the age of 18, especially under the age of 10. In the rare cases where adults were killed, the victims were almost always women. This is consistent with wolf hunting strategies, wherein the weakest and most vulnerable categories of prey are targeted.[13] Aside from their physical inferiority, children were historically more vulnerable to wolves as they were more likely to enter forests unattended to pick berries and mushrooms, as well as tend and watch over cattle and sheep on pastures.[18][20][21] While these practices have largely died out in Europe, they are still the case in India, where numerous attacks have been recorded in recent decades.[20] Further reason for the vulnerability of children is the fact that some may mistake wolves for dogs and thus approach them.[21]

There were no written records of wolf attacks on humans prior to the European colonization of the Americas, though the oral history of some Indigenous American tribes confirms that wolves occasionally did kill humans. Tribes living in woodlands feared wolves more than their tundra-dwelling counterparts, as they could encounter wolves suddenly and at close quarters.[33]
 
Did anyone ever find pix of their camp set up?

I've been following closely from the beginning. None of the MSM sites have published any pictures. I actually wonder if LE even bothered to take any.
 
In a press release from LSO, I recall reading Fish and Game and Forest Service were involved in initial searches. Then, from sheriff's comments about a week later about the wolf den, it would be reasonable to assume these professionals would have also part of that search as well. Fish & Game and Forest Service know that land inside and out and know typical animal behavior, threats, etc.

The one, consistent statement the sheriff has made several times without qualifiers, loop holes, being vague, etc. is that a wild life attack was ruled out.
 
I have to laugh because I called the sound "Yelps" and you called them "Yips" and yes, that is exactly what they sound like. LOL :)
They do throw in an occasional "howl" or two as well but they are very distinct sound and a much more high pitched sound than like a wolf howl.

And they are LOUD and it is somewhat scary, yes. Especially when a whole pack of them sound off.

I live 1/4 mile from a large canyon on the edge of Malibu State Park. We have dozens of coyotes here. They walk around in the daylight, right down the greenbelt, as if they own the place. At night we sometimes hear the whole lot of them doing their chorus of YIIIPPPSSSS....my friend says they do that after a successful kill. I always hug my furbabies close when I hear them. It is a beautiful sound, but scary at the same time.:wolf:
 
Did anyone ever find pix of their camp set up?

I have never seen any. Just one picture of him on the ATV after he was interviewed by the press. I ail look for the link.
 
In a press release from LSO, I recall reading Fish and Game and Forest Service were involved in initial searches. Then, from sheriff's comments about a week later about the wolf den, it would be reasonable to assume these professionals would have also part of that search as well. Fish & Game and Forest Service know that land inside and out and know typical animal behavior, threats, etc.

The one, consistent statement the sheriff has made several times without qualifiers, loop holes, being vague, etc. is that a wild life attack was ruled out.

Oops. I missed that. So ignore my post above! :)
 
After reading this, a wolf attack doesn't seem as unlikely as I previously thought. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_attacks_on_humans#Non-rabid

Unprovoked wolf attacks motivated by hunger are categorized as "predatory". In some such cases, a cautious wolf may launch "investigative" or "exploratory" attacks to test the victim for suitability as prey. As with defensive attacks, such attacks are not always pressed, as the animal may break off the attack or be convinced to look elsewhere for its next meal.[14] In contrast, during "determined" predatory attacks, the victims may be repeatedly bitten on the head and face and dragged off and consumed, sometimes as far away as 1-2.5 km from the attack site, unless the wolf or wolves are driven off.[14][15] Experts in India use the term "child lifting" to describe predatory attacks in which the animal silently enters a hut while everyone is sleeping, picks up a child, often with a silencing bite to the mouth and nose, and carries a child off by the head.[15] Such attacks typically occur in local clusters, and generally do not stop until the wolves involved are eliminated.[14]

Predatory attacks can occur at any time of the year, with a peak in the June–August period, when the chances of people entering forested areas (for livestock grazing or berry and mushroom picking) increase,[18][13]

A worldwide 2002 study by the Norwegian Institute of Nature Research showed that 90% of victims of predatory attacks were children under the age of 18, especially under the age of 10. In the rare cases where adults were killed, the victims were almost always women. This is consistent with wolf hunting strategies, wherein the weakest and most vulnerable categories of prey are targeted.[13] Aside from their physical inferiority, children were historically more vulnerable to wolves as they were more likely to enter forests unattended to pick berries and mushrooms, as well as tend and watch over cattle and sheep on pastures.[18][20][21] While these practices have largely died out in Europe, they are still the case in India, where numerous attacks have been recorded in recent decades.[20] Further reason for the vulnerability of children is the fact that some may mistake wolves for dogs and thus approach them.[21]

There were no written records of wolf attacks on humans prior to the European colonization of the Americas, though the oral history of some Indigenous American tribes confirms that wolves occasionally did kill humans. Tribes living in woodlands feared wolves more than their tundra-dwelling counterparts, as they could encounter wolves suddenly and at close quarters.[33]

Very good informative post.
 
I live 1/4 mile from a large canyon on the edge of Malibu State Park. We have dozens of coyotes here. They walk around in the daylight, right down the greenbelt, as if they own the place. At night we sometimes hear the whole lot of them doing their chorus of YIIIPPPSSSS....my friend says they do that after a successful kill. I always hug my furbabies close when I hear them. It is a beautiful sound, but scary at the same time.:wolf:
Indeed, the coyotes on the fringe of towns are far more habituated and cocky than those out in the wilderness. It's a very interesting dynamic. The bears in Yosemite will purposely try to startle you so you will drop your food. Versus the bears in areas that are vast and wild and sparsely populated look at you like you're the boogey man and don't stick around long enough to get any more than their rear in a photo. Mountain lions are the same, the ones that have been pushed by development show up on trails and walking through subdivisions, through the generations they have learned. The remote ones, most never get the chance to see.

My point? I would actually put more possibility of animal attack if this was closer to a city. Out there though, not so much.
 
In a press release from LSO, I recall reading Fish and Game and Forest Service were involved in initial searches. Then, from sheriff's comments about a week later about the wolf den, it would be reasonable to assume these professionals would have also part of that search as well. Fish & Game and Forest Service know that land inside and out and know typical animal behavior, threats, etc.

The one, consistent statement the sheriff has made several times without qualifiers, loop holes, being vague, etc. is that a wild life attack was ruled out.

BBM Unless something has changed recently, the last I read was that they had NOT ruled out a wild animal attack. As of the Lemhi County Sheriff FB page's most recent press release:
"The Sheriff’s Office will keep a presence in the Timber Creek area, continuing to search for clues, and has not ruled out abduction by strangers or wild animals."

https://www.facebook.com/LemhiCountySheriffsOffice?fref=nf
 
I really hate when wild animals abduct people! ( OK it may be time for me to go to bed, getting slap happy)
 
I really hate when wild animals abduct people! ( OK it may be time for me to go to bed, getting slap happy)

There's a Far Side cartoon in there somewhere ;)
 
Indeed, the coyotes on the fringe of towns are far more habituated and cocky than those out in the wilderness. It's a very interesting dynamic. The bears in Yosemite will purposely try to startle you so you will drop your food. Versus the bears in areas that are vast and wild and sparsely populated look at you like you're the boogey man and don't stick around long enough to get any more than their rear in a photo. Mountain lions are the same, the ones that have been pushed by development show up on trails and walking through subdivisions, through the generations they have learned. The remote ones, most never get the chance to see.

My point? I would actually put more possibility of animal attack if this was closer to a city. Out there though, not so much.

I had asked a search question the other day and I think I missed your answer and would love to get your opinion based on your SAR experience.

If search dogs are following the boys track and they came upon the spot where lets assume a cougar grabbed him and carried him off, would the dogs be afraid of the predator smell and be less likely to follow the track?
 
To answer the earlier question, you know I don't like to speculate, especially being that we rarely have the whole story. That being said, I would go back to ground zero and start over. I don't know what directions they went in besides the water, but I would go out in all directions. Sometimes the obvious is not actually the right area. With what we know that's about all you can do. I would also leave the ATVs out. They are great for clearing a road (as long as you aren't worried about destroying tracks or other evidence) and for getting a perimeter set up and getting searchers out a distance quickly. For the purpose of searching for what would sadly now be a deceased small child if he is out there they are not top on my list. Not top when looking for a live child either, can't hear small muffled sounds and it is hard to search thoroughly on them.
 
Well, until we know what ggf mental, and physical health is..... anything is possible. Someone could be in on it, and was waiting nearby.. U never know...
 
I have read every article I can find on this story, but I'm still not clear on a few things. I'm hoping someone here knows the answers. (Quoting articles given on page 1 of the thread.)

1. Where exactly was Deorr and what was he doing when he was last seen by his parents, ggf and ggf's friend? Specifically, was he sitting down, lying down with his blanket, in the tent, on the ground, playing with a toy, eating a snack, etc?

2. I read in a few articles that the parents thought Deorr was staying with his ggf and the ggf thought he was with the parents. In an interview with ggf's daughter (Deorr's grandmother), she says “My dad was standing there watching him and he turned his head and then (Deorr) was gone.” http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/grandma-of-missing-2-year-old-he-just-vanished/
The parents said in their interview "He`s a -- he`s a goer and a mover, but he`s not -- he does not go away from his parents. He does not..." "Yes, he`s very attached to us." If ggf wasn't watching him, it seems very plausible that little Deorr toddled off after his parents and something happened in the space between adults. (http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1507/15/ng.01.html) Did the parents tell ggf that they were taking a walk and that he was in charge of the baby? Or was he sleeping and they thought they would be back before he woke up?

3. The father say Deorr is small for his age and that he is almost three. I think Deorr was born in January, so he's closer to 2 1/2, but I'm still wondering if it would be possible that if the baby didn't see his parents, could he have returned to the truck? Could he have crawled into the bed of the truck unnoticed (possibly fell asleep) and when his dad took off down to find a better signal, Deorr fell out?

4. In the 911 call, when the operator asks the mom "What is he wearing", Mitchell answers "He was wearing cowboy boots, a blue pair of pajama pants and a camo jacket." Is it common in Idaho to answer that someone was wearing xyz rather than is wearing xyz if he's been missing for an hour? I'm trying to understand if she is using a local colloquialism or if she has already lost hope that he will ever be found. http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/0...-released-my-2-year-old-son-we-cant-find-him/

TIA!

P.S. I don't believe this is sleuthing the family members, as I am sticking to information already approved as source material. Just trying to establish a more specific timeline.
 
I don't understand all the hooplah about the ggf friend. He/she was there at the campsite when Deorr went missing, I get that. Is the assumption that somehow this person abducted and hid Deorr while the parents were on a walk and great grandpa was busy getting gear unloaded ? If that is even remotely possible, then how does one abduct, silence, bury(?), and cover up the crime scene to the point that 200 searchers find no evidence of any kind ?

Oh, and you do it all in about 10 minutes with a living witness just a few feet away.........yeah.........okay.

I replied to this on second page..
 
BBM Unless something has changed recently, the last I read was that they had NOT ruled out a wild animal attack. As of the Lemhi County Sheriff FB page's most recent press release:
"The Sheriff’s Office will keep a presence in the Timber Creek area, continuing to search for clues, and has not ruled out abduction by strangers or wild animals."

https://www.facebook.com/LemhiCountySheriffsOffice?fref=nf

You are absolutely correct. My apologies. Until that one, this is the common theme I recall reading....

"After more than a week of searching Stone Reservoir, Penner said he feels confident that they will not find the boy there, but says they still plan to keep checking it daily.

He says they have looked into the possibility that DeOrr may have been taken by a wild animal. On Monday, search crews spotted a wolf chasing a couple deer in the area, but they have not found any evidence of an animal attack."

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/loca...riffs-office-calling-in-air-support/30466883/

Irony is each one of them keeps saying something different than the other on different issues. :facepalm:
 
I have read every article I can find on this story, but I'm still not clear on a few things. I'm hoping someone here knows the answers. (Quoting articles given on page 1 of the thread.)


4. In the 911 call, when the operator asks the mom "What is he wearing", Mitchell answers "He was wearing cowboy boots, a blue pair of pajama pants and a camo jacket." Is it common in Idaho to answer that someone was wearing xyz rather than is wearing xyz if he's been missing for an hour? I'm trying to understand if she is using a local colloquialism or if she has already lost hope that he will ever be found. http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/0...-released-my-2-year-old-son-we-cant-find-him/

TIA!

P.S. I don't believe this is sleuthing the family members, as I am sticking to information already approved as source material. Just trying to establish a more specific timeline.

I think mom was answering it from this perspective: "the last time I saw him, he was wearing....."
 
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