ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #71

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I understand that defense attorneys often don't have much to work with, and need to at least appear to try to do their job. But how does Mr. Thomas think it helps his client to draw more attention to stabbing vs cutting on poor Tylee's body? Or how exactly JJ was taped up and smothered? Or reiterating how smart and qualified an expert prosecution witness is? You would think there would be certain things they wouldn't want to call attention to and highlight to a jury. I see it happen in almost every trial, and it boggles my mind. Imo.

Going back to the defense opening statements... "They’re not sure what happened, yet they want you to be sure."

So, I guess these types of questions are an effort to point out things the prosecution witnesses are unsure about. (Just thinking aloud, I could be wrong)

 

'Thomas mentions about one tool mark being serrated. Witness said marks were consistent with that. Thomas asks who far apart were the marks. Witness didn't measure them'
'Thomas asks why he didn't measure and the witness says it wasn't essential since no tools were submitted with the bones.'
'Thomas asks how much force was used. The witness says that's not an exam they conduct in the tool mark department.'
(all Gigi's tweets)

My two cents? State should have paid for an independent expert with more experience of this specific field
 

'Thomas mentions about one tool mark being serrated. Witness said marks were consistent with that. Thomas asks who far apart were the marks. Witness didn't measure them'
'Thomas asks why he didn't measure and the witness says it wasn't essential since no tools were submitted with the bones.'
'Thomas asks how much force was used. The witness says that's not an exam they conduct in the tool mark department.'
(all Gigi's tweets)

My two cents? State should have paid for an independent expert with more experience of this specific field

I'm wondering if they didn't hire an expert since they have the kid's DNA on tools from his garage, so they know what tools were used. Seems like they still could have asked him to look at the tools, though.
 
Wonder about the significance of JJ's bright red blood vessels in his tooth and if it could go to his COD. All I can remember about bright red blood vessels during my WS coursework :))) is from carbon monoxide poisoning.
 
I'm wondering if they didn't hire an expert since they have the kid's DNA on tools from his garage, so they know what tools were used. Seems like they still could have asked him to look at the tools, though.
DNA only that pickaxe iirc, but yes, axes were collected according to Gigi last week, so why not hand them over to the expert?:
On Nate Eaton's thread the witness details how many similar cases he's encountered - very few.
There are better tool mark experts out there in USA - think State should have stumped up the $ for a second evaluation. ( especially when the remains haven't been allowed to be buried for so long & this is such a high profile case)

As for the dumping of the weapons, they'll possibly be in a river or buried /dumped somewhere, possibly by Alex, but resource-heavy to find... so... a fools errand ( I wasn't expecting LE to search entire state or Alex's phone geolocation Sept thru December to try & relocate)

ETA:
also from earlier in the week

PS why wouldn't you use saws, if you had them to hand & if you wanted to cut-up a body?
 
Last edited:
Just had another memory from my WS coursework and looked it up to confirm. A cause for bright red blood is cyanide poisoning. Not sure if it makes the blood vessels bright red too. I wonder if they checked the kids for poisons.

 
Back early - so here ya go!


Summary of tweets for Thursday, April 27th - Day 12

State witness: Dr. Angi Christensen, forensic anthropologist for FBI.


Nate Eaton
@NateNewsNow
·
1h
Day 17. FBI Forensic Anthropologist Angi Christensen will be back on the stand. Samantha Gwilliam, Tammy Daybell’s sister, is also in Boise with her husband.

Tammy.jpg

In the courtroom. Samantha Gwilliam (Tammy Daybell's sister) and her husband Jason Gwilliam are also here. Kay and Larry Woodcock are back today. Many spectators tell me they are here for the first time. One came from Arizona just for this. Other spectators have been here daily.

Lori just walked into hte courtroom. She is wearing zebra-ish white and black patterned pants, a black top and a black jacket. She is chatting and smiling with her attorneys.

John Prior, Chad's attorney, just walked in. I imagine he will want to hear what Samantha Gwilliam has to say.

Bailiff is reading instructions to the audience. He reminds everyone to follow the courtroom order, turn phones off, be quiet and not cause disruptions.

Chad and Tammy Daybell were married nearly 30 years before she died. This is the first time Samantha Gwilliam has seen Chad's new wife, Lori Vallow Daybell, in person.

There appears to be tech issues as courthouse staff are working on some computers up by the judge's chair. Judge Boyce has not entered the courtroom yet.

Boyce is now on the bench and the jurors are being brought in.

Smith pulls up an image on the big screen showing Tylee's pelvis bone from two different angles. Christensen points out five areas of "sharp impact" on the bone.

"The general location of the sharp impact in the pelvic area is inconsistent with dismemberment," Christensen says. Christensen did not see any sharp trauma on the vertebrae but she can't know for sure because they were severely burned.

We now see photos of the right hip bone. There are six areas of "sharp alterations" on this bone which Christensen points out with a laser pointer.

The location of these sharp alterations is inconsistent with dismemberment, Christensen says.

More images are shown on the screen and Smith asks Christensen to identify the six areas of sharp trauma on these images.

We are now shown an image of the sacrum bone (the back of the pelvis between the hip bones) which is attached to vertebrae. "There was one sharp alteration on the left side," Christensen says.

We are shown an x-ray image of the sacrum and four vertebrae. There was no evidence of sharp trauma on the x-ray but Christensen says trauma is often not visible in a radiograph image. Smith has no further questions for Christensen.

John Thomas will conduct cross-examination on Dr. Christensen. He asks about the injuries not being consistent with a dismemberment type case. He asks how many dismemberment cases she has done over her career. She says "a handful" - probably fewer than ten.

Christensen says is constantly reading case studies and reports about dismemberment cases. She says typical dismemberment cases are done by cutting around joints and that was not done with Tylee.

Christensen says her main job was to identify trauma on the bones and narrow down what bones could be examined by other humans.

"In this particular case, what types of instruments were used based on your professional experience, training, research and review of other articles - what types of instruments were used?" Thomas asks. Christensen says that's not her expertise - that's for the tool expert.

Thomas asks how long Tylee's exam took. Christensen needs to refer to her notes. She says she began her exam on Aug. 23, 2020 & completed her final report on Sept. 22, 2020. She says generally she is only working one case at a time. Thomas has no further questions for Christensen

Smith has a follow-up question. "If you can't tell a specific tool, how do you determine it was actually caused by sharp trauma?" "It refers to trauma imparted by something with a very small surface area.

This is different than blunt trauma, which is imparted by an object with a large surface area," Christensen explains. No further questions. Christensen is released from the witness stand.


link: https://twitter.com/NateNewsNow
 
Summary of tweets for Thursday, April 27th - Day 12

State witness: Douglas Halepaska. A forensic examiner in the firearms & tool marks division in the FBI lab in Quantico, Virginia.


Nate Eaton
@NateNewsNow
·
2h
Next witness called to the stand is Douglas Halepaska. He works in the FBI lab in Quantico, Virginia. He's a forensic examiner in the firearms and tool marks division. Fremont County Deputy Prosecuting Tawyna Rawlings is questioning Halepaska.

Halepaska explains the training he received to be a tool mark examiner. He's worked with tools and firearms in different training facilities and has passed several oral and written exams.

Halepaska has worked at the Quantico lab for over 13 years. Evidence typically arrives via Fed Ex but sometimes it's hand delivered. Someone receives the evidence, enters it into a software system, takes inventory and puts together an examination plan.

When evidence arrives at the firearm/tool mark unit, an examiner or technician picks it up and puts it into a storage facility. Halepaska recalls receiving the evidence from the Ada County Coroner's Office.

Halepaska asks to review his notes. The defense has a right to see the notes before he looks them over so Thomas is reviewing them. Lori is chatting with Jim Archibald, her other attorney.

Halepaska explains the first thing he does in reviewing evidence is open up the package. He then reviews the evidence for any tool marks. He documents it in his notes with images or handwritten. "A tool can be thought of when two objects come in contact with each other.

The harder of the two objects is called the tool, the softer of the objects is called the tool mark."

Rawlings asks Halepaska if he used casting material. He says he did. "Casting material is a silicon-based compound. It's administered onto a surface as a thick liquid.

Once that substance dries, it dries into a rubberized material and picks up casting of the items." Halepaska took five castings of the evidence items.

Halepaska explains types of tool marks and impressions that can be found on objects.

Halepaska says during the first part of his examination process, he documents everything in his notes. During the next level of the exam, he brings in a comparison microscope that allows him to look at two separate samples using the same viewing field and magnification.

Rawlings asks to admit some photographs. Thomas looks over them and says he has a question for Rawlings. They walk into the corner of the courtroom. There is no white noise today. Boyce says there are some tech issues that should hopefully be resolved during lunch.

Thomas returns to his seat. Rawlings continues to question Halepaska about the photos. He says they are pictures taken during the exam period from Feb. 2021-Oct. 2021. Halaepaska placed markings on the photos and bones.

An image of the hip bone is displayed on the screen. Halepaska points out damage on the bone and says there are signs of stabbing and chopping-type actions.

The next photo is a close-up of the hip bone where Halepaska says there was evidence of a stabbing-action. "You can actually see some of the bone here has begun to fracture and the force of the impact came down at a perpendicular angle.

This fracturing that's occurring has been driven to the bone. The bone has a hard layer and a hallowed layer inside. This penetrated the hard layer into the hallow layer and there was damage that occurred on the other side of the bone."

Halepaska applied the casting material to the damaged part of the bone and let it harden. He did this twice and was unable to identify any characteristics of the tool that possibly caused the damage.

The next image shows more damage and fractures to the hip bone. Halepaska says the damage was caused by a chopping-type action. "It didn't drive all the way through the hard layer of the bone but you can see basically part of the bone of the damaged area."

Halepaska says he took a casting of this part of bone but was unable to identify characteristics of the injury.

The next slide shows multiple images. The top picture shows close-up images of the tool marks found on the bone. During the presentation, Lori is drawing or writing on her notepad, whispering to her attorneys and drinking from a cup of water.

Halepaska wasn't able to determine the exact tools that caused the marks but he speculates they came from a bladed tool such as a machete or hatchet.

Another photo shows a crack in the bone that cut through the hard layer and transferred to the other side of the bone. "It indicates to me there may have been some type of serrated edge on the blade," Halepaska says, adding that it came from a chopping-type action.

We now see a photo of the backside of the hip bone. It shows damage from a stabbing-type action that went through the bone to the outside. "I believe it was some type of bladed tool like a knife however I couldn't preclude other tools that might have some type of pointed edge."

Rawlings presents more photos showing damage to bones. We now see an intact portion of Tylee's spine. It has marks consistent with a chopping-type action, Halepaska says.

The next image is the other half of the hip or pelvic region. There is some damage created from a chopping-type action that pierced the hard layer of the bone.

There are soot marks on the bone that were damaged due to fire. "I was unable to find any tool marks but it does appear some type of force was applied to it perpendicular driving it downward but it was still attached to the bone."

We are now viewing another photo showing a bone damaged from a chopping-type action, Halepaska explains. He believes the marks came from a blade tool such as a cleaver, machete or hatchet.

We now see a photo with a big black crack in a bone. "This is from a chopping-type action. The force of the action occurred from left to right, kind of coming upward," Halepaska says.

The last image shows a large piece of Tylee's hip bone. Halepaska says some type of force was applied because there's an impression on it. There are other areas of damage.

We have another image displayed on the screen showing the totality of all the bones Halepaska examined. You see both hips and the spine/vertebrae. He marked all of the spots that were damaged and there are a lot of them.

The last picture is the backside of the bones we just saw. Halepaska points out lots of stabbing and chopping-type action marks on the image.

Rawlings asks Halepaska to summarize his findings. He says he was able to outline tools that could have produced the marks but could not specifically determine each individual item.

He says marks likely came from a knife, hatchet, cleaver, something with serrated teeth marks, a machete or other tools.

Rawlings has no further questions for Halepaska. Thomas will conduct cross-examination.

Thomas asks Halepaska about his background and where he received his education. Halepaska explains where he went to school and that he is currently enrolled in classes that require federal security clearances.

Boyce announces that we are taking the morning recess for 20 minutes.

We are back in court. Thomas asks Halepaska when he started the National Intelligence University, where he is currently enrolled. Thomas asks Halepaska for his employment history out of college.

Halepaska says after he graduated college, he was reactivated in the Marine Corp. following 9/11. Thomas thanks him for his service.

Halepaska says examinations similar to this case are "infrequent" and he has maybe done them 5-6 times over his career.

Halepaska says he tries to use tools to replicate marks on other types of materials. He used replicas of knives, hatchets, machetes and "a lot of different tools" to determine what was used in this case.

None of the tools seized from Chad Daybell's property were used in the testing, Halepaska says. He says no tools were submitted to the lab - he just tested the bones.

Halepaska says it would have been helpful to have tools to analyze in the case.

Halepaska says his analysis was focused solely on the marks and damage to the bones - not flesh or skin.

Thomas asks, "Is it true you don't know what caused these marks, you just know it was something?" He responds, "All I know is the marks were generated by some tool that is consistent in generating those marks but I don't know what was used."

Halepaska says a lot of disciplines exist in the FBI laboratory and they try to help as much as possible but they are limited based on the evidence given to them.

Thomas asks for clarification on the difference between the stabbing and chopping tool marks. "I'm a little confused which is which." Halepaska says in the stabbing, the energy is being transferred from the tool to the surface and is focused on a very narrow area.

The chopping action force is being applied over a long-access area. Thomas has no further questions.

Rawlings have some follow-up questions for clarification.

Halepaska's testimony is over. He is released from the stand.

link: https://twitter.com/NateNewsNow
 
Thomas asking if these are actions of someone who is "sophisticated or unsophisticated" (LINK) has me rolling my eyes. Is that the defense -- that LVD is too "sophisticated" to perform these actions?
seriously sick of this... yes someone randomly took the kids after she never reported them missing, killed them and buried them on property belonging to her *gag* lover....
 
Summary of tweets for Thursday, April 27th - Day 12

State witness: David Sincerbeaux, retired from Idaho State Police. Worked as an analytical chemist in the ISP Lab; analyzing fire debris & drugs.


Nate Eaton
@NateNewsNow
·
1h
Next witness called to the stand is David Sincerbeaux. He's retired from Idaho State Police and Rachel Smith is questioning him.

Sincerbeaux worked as an analytical chemist in the ISP lab analyzing fire debris and drugs. He has since retired and coaches softball in northern Idaho.

Sincerbeaux has examined tens of thousands of items affected by fire during the course of his career.

Sincerbeaux recalls testing a pint-sized can containing decomposing flesh and other debris collected from Chad Daybell's property.

"That can contained gasoline," Sincerbeaux says.

Smith has nothing further. John Thomas now cross-examining Sincerbeaux.

Sincerbeaux was tasked with looking for any ignitible liquids - paint thinners, gasoline, diesel.

Thomas asks Sincerbeaux how full the pint-sized can was. Sincerbeaux doesn't recall but says they normally want it 3/4 full for testing.

Sincerbeaux says when it comes to testing, they use a charcoal strip attached to a Christmas tree ornament hanger to put in the substance.

Sincerbeaux gives a very scientific answer as to how the testing is done to determine whether gasoline is in the can. His explanation includes words I've never heard. If you're really interested, you should listen to the audio recording later tonight.

Thomas has no further questions and Smith has no re-direct. Sincerbeaux is excused.


link: https://twitter.com/NateNewsNow
 
Summary of tweets for Thursday, April 27th - Day 12

State witness: Rylene Nowlin, lab manager at the Idaho State Police Forensic Dept. / Part 1


Nate Eaton
@NateNewsNow
·
58m
The next witness is Rylene Nowlin. Nowlin works in the Idaho State Police Forensic Department. She is the lab manager. Rob Wood will be questioning her.

Wood asks Nowlin to describe her experience. She shares her educational and career background.

Nowlin has testified approximately 85 times prior to today about DNA analysis. "Over the course of 20 years, I've tested thousands of (DNA) samples."

Nowlin explains what DNA. Half comes from your mom and half comes from your dad. She says it's a multiple step process to determine where DNA originated.

Multiple steps are taken to ensure the process of collecting DNA is done correctly. "There are controls built into the system to make sure it works," Nowlin says

The labs are bleached down, lab coats are worn, hair is pulled back, each item is tested separately, Nowlin says. The Idaho State Police lab is an accredited lab.

There are several standards the lab follows to be accredited and in order to work with other law enforcement agencies including the FBI.

Nowlin worked the Daybell case. "The items I was specifically asked to examine were biological samples said to be collected from Tylee Ryan - molars and a section of rib.

I was also given biological samples from Joshua J. Vallow - which also consisted of a molar and section of rib. I was also given known samples from Dennis Trehan as well as Ms. Vallow."

Nowlin created a DNA profile for Tylee. She compared it against the DNA sample from Lori Vallow to determine if Lori was Tylee's mother. The results showed 99.999% of the female population was excluded from being Tylee's mother.

I missed a 9 - it's actually 99.9999%

"It is 2 billion, 528 million times more likely that Lori Vallow is the mother of the deceased individual as opposed to another randomly selected woman from the population," Nowlin says - based on the molar tested from Tylee's body.

Nowlin says JJ's tooth sample was different than any she has seen previously. "When I broke open the tooth, there were still plump vessels present inside the tooth."

A DNA profile was created for JJ and compared against Dennis Trehan, JJ's biological father. The results showed 99.9999% of the male population was excluded from being JJ's father.

The state has no further questions for Nowlin. No cross-examination from the defense. The witness is excused.

We are going to lunch. See you in an hour.


Many of you have asked about the layout of the courtroom. Here's a great sketch Susan Bin put together showing where everyone sits.

Courtroom.jpg
you can enlarge this ^^


link: https://twitter.com/NateNewsNow
 
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