ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #72

[Gardenista]

By a criminal defense attorney and TV legal analyst:

Jury certainly knows that #ChadDaybell was conniving, manipulating and credible. The problem is they also now know that #LoriVallow was not just under his spell as a follower, but was carrying the mantle and recruiting others into their doom's day cult. There are big hurdles for the defense to overcome in an endeavor to cast doubt on the prosecution's case i.e., two confession calls by Lori, evidence from AZ murder of Charles as direct proof that Alex kills for her; the prayer by Chad and Lori thanking Alex for doing things they can't repay; Alex being her warrior/protector; Alex's fingerprints on JJ's bag...Lori is charged not just with murder but conspiracy to murder. While juries typically don't like connecting dots (lots to connect here), the evidence is compelling and places Lori's dot very close to the bad guys' dots (Chad and Alex). #LoriVallowTrial

https://twitter.com/x/status/1652699728319217668

This is concerning as this CDA was literally wrong on everything she said about the Murdaugh case.

 

[Tortoise]

 

[BUF]

Re: Lori's alibi, if she herself doesn't get on the stand and say she somehow heard from 'someone else' who was there, or found out her kids died in Alex's apartment, I don't see any way that alibi stands in such a way that doesn't imply she knew exactly when and where the kids were killed for the simple fact that she knew they were going to be killed/participated in it or did it herself. But I still don't see it likely she will take the stand.

Although I feel confident that her attorneys will discourage her from testifying, I wouldn’t be surprised if she insists on it.

 

[cottonweaver]

re that alibi for murders of JJ & T which she claims happened in Alex's apartment

oh!
( Det Stubbs evidence regarding search warrants executed end Nov on all the town homes. 'Apt 107 was Lori's lease but she was living in 175 in Alex's apartment.')

https://twitter.com/x/status/1650509966539628546

Oh! (this YouTube is 6 years old but still worth a look. Smart cookie)

( Chad's arrest affidavit is at 6 mins at the link - affidavit details where Alex resided before he moved into 107.
Melani P's ' foggy lie' is at 8 mins. MP claims not to know who lived next door. )

Why did Lori register for 107 in the first place - see interior & pets rules ( 1-6mins)

TLDR
Is it possible that Alex never moved into 107 properly? Was it mainly used for killing as the Youtuber says?
What if, as part of the long-planned scheme, the rental of all these units so close to each other was based on sinister motives?

 

[Ruminations]

We don't know this for a fact, but I surmise that LVD pulled Tylee out of school to make her more dependent, and probably did the paperwork for her to be considered "disabled", due to her medical condition. Thus, being eligible for her father's social security past age 18, as an adult with a disability.

Pancreatitis, indeed.

That would not be easily done. It is very hard to convince SSA that a person is disabled.

 

[Teche]

I wonder what kind of rift is between Janis and Rex.

 

[Shadowtrix]

Although I feel confident that her attorneys will discourage her from testifying, I wouldn’t be surprised if she insists on it.

I'd be curious to see if it would be the same exact confident Lori with an explanation for everything we saw on the police bodycam video of her with Tylee and MG at the station if she did. My guess would be yes.

 

[aafromaa]

I have no idea why they submitted an alibi statement and don’t ever remember seeing this done before.

Apparently, ID code requires this…

Section 19-519 – Idaho State Legislature

However, since the state is not specifically alleging that LVD committed the murders of JJ & Tylee but asking to convict based on conspiracy and complacency (aiding & abetting & such) then I’m not sure that an alibi during the times of the murders does anything to help the defense. The state is relying more on if she helped plan it, or prepare for it, or encourage it, then my understanding of ID law is that she is just as guilty as the one(s) who committed the murders.

I have read every post on WS of that those who think LVD’s involvement has been proven and those who think there is still reasonable doubt. I have gained insight from all of you.

For me, the notice of alibi helps prove the murder charge Now that I understand they don’t have to prove she killed the kids herself. Specifically for JJ. Here’s why…see the notice of alibi linked below. This is going to take a minute so I apologize for that.

LVD admits that JJ was killed between the time MG & DW see AC take him to her room on Sunday night and the time AC is at the Daybell property on Mon morning. We know this because the alibi statement says she was in her apartment with MG & DW when he was killed in AC’s apt. I’m not really sure that AC killed JJ or that it was in his apartment but let’s go with that for now.

She also seems to be saying she was with CD when Tylee was killed also in AC’s apartment. We know she is aware of this by the time MG arrives at the house the Thursday before JJ was killed because she is already making excuses for Tylee’s absence to the babysitter on Thursday and later to MG so they aren’t suspicious about not seeing her at the house. (Remember she said Tylee was a student at BYUI and living in student housing or something.) So prior to JJ’s death, she was aware of what happened to Tylee - or at least what she is saying happened to Tylee.

We know that DW asked about JJ about 8am on Mon morning and LVD said AC came and got him. So she is saying that she asked AC to come and get JJ in the middle of the night even though she knows AC killed Tylee about 2 weeks earlier. IF JJ was still alive when AC came to get him & I’m not saying he was - but if he was, then she knew exactly what was going to happen to him and gave AC the opportunity to do it even if she didn’t have motive or wasn’t involved with the means.

That she knew JJ was dead is evidenced later that morning when she begins telling MG that he is too much to handle and that she is going to send him to Kay so she is making an excuse for his future absence from her home just as she did with Tylee.

I do believe she had motive - financial and a desire to be with CD unencumbered by taking care of JJ and Tylee. And I believe she was much more involved in the planning if not carrying out of these murders. But all I would need as a juror to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that she is guilty as charged in the murder of JJ is that she acknowledges AC killed Tylee and asked him to come get JJ.

Nothing else is required for my guilty vote on this one - none of the despicable things she did after the kids were dead - none of the changing of Tylee’s SS deposit which I agree could have valid reasons for anyone to do at any point that a minor child is receiving benefits - in fact I found it odd that Tylee would have access to it in the first place - maybe a portion of it like an allowance - but even if it wasn’t needed for living expenses because CV took care of all that - I would have thought they would have put it in a college fund or something rather than giving a young person access to the entire amount each month - but that’s off topic here - sorry… None of the freaky castings or trying to determine whether LVD & CD meant they would kill these dark bodies that had been possessed by evil spirits or whether they were just praying for them to die. None of it is even needed for me to be convinced beyond reasonable doubt that LVD is guilty of the murder of JJ.

I have similar convictions about Tylee but won’t go into them here as this is already quite lengthy.

I will say that I am not yet convinced beyond reasonable doubt on the conspiracy charge regarding TD.

Sorry this got so long…hope you all will take the time to read it and let me know if you agree that the alibi statement helps the prosecution more than the defense. I really cannot think of a logical reason for them to offer an alibi for the murders when the state was not charging she actually committed the murders herself and think this was a huge mistake by the defense since they knew prior to offer the alibi statement that the state was not charging she committed them herself. It may have had something to do with the fact that at the time they submitted it, LVD & CD we’re going to be tried together but still doesn’t make sense to me.


https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR22211624/010523 Notice of Alibi.pdf

 

[Ruminations]

It looks from IDAHO CODE that if the defense intends to call witnesses to establish an alibi, that document has to be submitted ahead of time. So if they hadn't submitted it, they couldn't have called the witnesses listed (Melani Boudreaux or Audrey Barattiero) to testify to LVD's whereabouts at those times.

My big question from that document, though: How does the defense know that the children were killed in AC's apartment? I haven't seen any evidence (yet) from the prosecution to establish this. There were theories buzzing around here that Tylee could have been shot on CD's property (thus the text to TD about shooting the raccoon), as well as theories about killing her on the way back to Rexburg from Yellowstone. I think the assumption was that JJ was killed at AC's apartment, but others have theorized that it was in LVD's apartment. So why would the defense state it as a fact?

- Are we going to get more evidence from the prosecution that will establish this?
- Is it a slip-up on part of the defense to claim knowledge of exactly where the murders took place?
- Is it some deeper strategy on part of the defense to claim knowledge of exactly where the murders took place? Is it perjury to lie about where the murders took place?

IKR?

The biggest mystery to me is.... why did the defense submit the alibi statement mentioning Audrey B in HI, and then proceed to discredit Audrey B?

I know very little about her.

But for some reason the defense claimed she had taken the 5th before the grand jury and said something else I've forgotten discrediting her.

The prosecutor said it was false to say she did not give testimony to the grand jury. And mentioned her in opening statements. They promised we would hear from her. Unless she is the problematic witness mentioned April 25, I expect we will.

I think it's possible she testified at the grand jury and took the fifth about some questions. (Q:"Is it true you never came to full stops on your trip in your rented car from the airport to the resort Lori was staying in while her husband and brother were murdering Tammy per the plan hatched by the three of them?" A: " Umm, I take the fifth.")

The suspense is killing me.

MOO

 

[Gardenista]

Not sure if we have anyone medical in here, but if we do, I have a question. It's been said that Alex had a TBI and this might be a reason that he turned into a killer. Would the changes in his brain be apparent in a routine autopsy? If so, here is a link to it and maybe you can point out if it shows anything like that.

READ: The medical examiner and toxicology reports on Alex Cox - East Idaho News

The Maricopa County Office of the Medical Examiner released its report Friday into the death of Alexander Cox. The manner of death was natural. The cause of death was bilateral pulmonary thromboemboli with atheroschlerotic and hypertensive cardiovascular disease. RELATED | Alex Cox died of...

www.eastidahonews.com

 

[fred&edna]

Although I feel confident that her attorneys will discourage her from testifying, I wouldn’t be surprised if she insists on it.

I don't think she will. She didn't try to provide explanations to Colby nor Summer (except for the few lame "you don't know" comments.) I don't think she's got any holy-word-salad explanations (nor anything else) to try to spin to the jurors. She thinks she's above all that. jmo

 

[Jolynna]

Since Tylee collected Social Security funds from her deceased father, she was not enrolled in school and was soon approaching her 18th birthday, those funds would vanish.

Tylee was born on September 24, 2002. She was killed at age 16, only a few weeks before she would have turned 17. So, Tylee would have continued to receive Social Security benefits for another year. Unfortunately, LVD didn't want to share Tylee's SS money with Tylee.

Tylee would have turned 18 in 2020: Tylee Ryan's 18th birthday

My opinion.

 

[cottonweaver]

Tylee was born on September 24, 2002. She was killed at age 16, only a few weeks before she would have turned 17. So, Tylee would have continued to receive Social Security benefits for another year. Unfortunately, LVD didn't want to share Tylee's SS money with Tylee.

Tylee would have turned 18 in 2020: Tylee Ryan's 18th birthday

My opinion.

but Lori could pay for Chad's travel.

This is the forensic accountant's testimony & it includes all Tylee's financials. Apparently her records showed she was able to budget, didn't go into the red ( the SS she received from Joe Ryan's death)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1648734378275786754

 

[Nikynoo]

Apparently, ID code requires this…

Section 19-519 – Idaho State Legislature

However, since the state is not specifically alleging that LVD committed the murders of JJ & Tylee but asking to convict based on conspiracy and complacency (aiding & abetting & such) then I’m not sure that an alibi during the times of the murders does anything to help the defense. The state is relying more on if she helped plan it, or prepare for it, or encourage it, then my understanding of ID law is that she is just as guilty as the one(s) who committed the murders.

I have read every post on WS of that those who think LVD’s involvement has been proven and those who think there is still reasonable doubt. I have gained insight from all of you.

For me, the notice of alibi helps prove the murder charge Now that I understand they don’t have to prove she killed the kids herself. Specifically for JJ. Here’s why…see the notice of alibi linked below. This is going to take a minute so I apologize for that.

LVD admits that JJ was killed between the time MG & DW see AC take him to her room on Sunday night and the time AC is at the Daybell property on Mon morning. We know this because the alibi statement says she was in her apartment with MG & DW when he was killed in AC’s apt. I’m not really sure that AC killed JJ or that it was in his apartment but let’s go with that for now.

She also seems to be saying she was with CD when Tylee was killed also in AC’s apartment. We know she is aware of this by the time MG arrives at the house the Thursday before JJ was killed because she is already making excuses for Tylee’s absence to the babysitter on Thursday and later to MG so they aren’t suspicious about not seeing her at the house. (Remember she said Tylee was a student at BYUI and living in student housing or something.) So prior to JJ’s death, she was aware of what happened to Tylee - or at least what she is saying happened to Tylee.

We know that DW asked about JJ about 8am on Mon morning and LVD said AC came and got him. So she is saying that she asked AC to come and get JJ in the middle of the night even though she knows AC killed Tylee about 2 weeks earlier. IF JJ was still alive when AC came to get him & I’m not saying he was - but if he was, then she knew exactly what was going to happen to him and gave AC the opportunity to do it even if she didn’t have motive or wasn’t involved with the means.

That she knew JJ was dead is evidenced later that morning when she begins telling MG that he is too much to handle and that she is going to send him to Kay so she is making an excuse for his future absence from her home just as she did with Tylee.

I do believe she had motive - financial and a desire to be with CD unencumbered by taking care of JJ and Tylee. And I believe she was much more involved in the planning if not carrying out of these murders. But all I would need as a juror to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that she is guilty as charged in the murder of JJ is that she acknowledges AC killed Tylee and asked him to come get JJ.

Nothing else is required for my guilty vote on this one - none of the despicable things she did after the kids were dead - none of the changing of Tylee’s SS deposit which I agree could have valid reasons for anyone to do at any point that a minor child is receiving benefits - in fact I found it odd that Tylee would have access to it in the first place - maybe a portion of it like an allowance - but even if it wasn’t needed for living expenses because CV took care of all that - I would have thought they would have put it in a college fund or something rather than giving a young person access to the entire amount each month - but that’s off topic here - sorry… None of the freaky castings or trying to determine whether LVD & CD meant they would kill these dark bodies that had been possessed by evil spirits or whether they were just praying for them to die. None of it is even needed for me to be convinced beyond reasonable doubt that LVD is guilty of the murder of JJ.

I have similar convictions about Tylee but won’t go into them here as this is already quite lengthy.

I will say that I am not yet convinced beyond reasonable doubt on the conspiracy charge regarding TD.

Sorry this got so long…hope you all will take the time to read it and let me know if you agree that the alibi statement helps the prosecution more than the defense. I really cannot think of a logical reason for them to offer an alibi for the murders when the state was not charging she actually committed the murders herself and think this was a huge mistake by the defense since they knew prior to offer the alibi statement that the state was not charging she committed them herself. It may have had something to do with the fact that at the time they submitted it, LVD & CD we’re going to be tried together but still doesn’t make sense to me.


https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR22211624/010523 Notice of Alibi.pdf

Thank you for your comprehensive post. I agree with your findings re all of the victims. I agree that the alibi does not help the defence. Surely LV defence team is experienced enough to know what the charges are? I am confused as to why they have submitted the alibi. Perhaps their client insisted? Perhaps MM is around in the background somewhere (is he still supporting LV professionally in some form?).

 

[cottonweaver]

'has to, push the buttons under Idaho law ....but what she's hoping is this allows her to be in the game, to get a plea deal'
( 3 months ago, the news reports suggested attempts for deal were being made)

 

[pizzaman12]

If the prosecutions ends it’s case by the end of the week, the defense puts on their case although they have stated that they don’t have many witnesses … well that can change and there is always the possibility if Lori insists on testifying.

The case has gone quicker in part due to little if no cross of the witnesses by the defense.

Deliberation time is also included in the trial schedule, which is hard to gauge.

I hope that the jury instructions are written clear enough for this jury. Sometimes they can be very confusing causing delay and sometimes verdicts that were expected differently.

Even with limited cross and defense witnesses, this is a gross miscalculation by the prosecution. They stated they would need 10 weeks (with jury selection included). Remember, the cost of this trial was argued at several motions hearings. Obviously cases this big don't come through small towns like this often, but do you lose credibility when making arguments in the future for past overstatements or maybe misrepresenting something in effort to win something like a "motion to sever"? I know the state and JB wanted to make sure they had enough time vs. running over, but roughly half the amount of time is a pretty large discrepancy. JP stated he would need 6 weeks and that included jury selection. Again, I know they were building in some time as a precaution but that's a pretty big miss. Just curious what kind of impact that has.

I agree completely on the the jury instructions. There is a lot to digest in this case and certainly not the most black and white.

ETA- I can't remember but is JB appointing the foreman or will that be determined among the jurors?

 

[Jolynna]

but Lori could pay for Chad's travel.

This is the forensic accountant's testimony & it includes all Tylee's financials. Apparently her records showed she was able to budget, didn't go into the red ( the SS she received from Joe Ryan's death)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1648734378275786754

Exactly! Lori COULD pay for Chad's travel. "Priorities".

Tylee was responsible with her money, but, Tylee still had needs -- gas, clothes, make-up, running-around cash, she might even have wanted to take a college class or two. Lori wanted ALL of Tylee's SS benefits to spend on herself and her new "man".

My own opinion.

 

[Gardenista]

Even with limited cross and defense witnesses, this is a gross miscalculation by the prosecution. They stated they would need 10 weeks (with jury selection included). Remember, the cost of this trial was argued at several motions hearings. Obviously cases this big don't come through small towns like this often, but do you lose credibility when making arguments in the future for past overstatements or maybe misrepresenting something in effort to win something like a "motion to sever"? I know the state and JB wanted to make sure they had enough time vs. running over, but roughly half the amount of time is a pretty large discrepancy. JP stated he would need 6 weeks and that included jury selection. Again, I know they were building in some time as a precaution but that's a pretty big miss. Just curious what kind of impact that has.

I agree completely on the the jury instructions. There is a lot to digest in this case and certainly not the most black and white.

ETA- I can't remember but is JB appointing the foreman or will that be determined among the jurors?

10 weeks was when it was a DP trial which would include a sentencing phase if she was found G

 

[cottonweaver]

where did Alex really live most of September? ' 3rd room - bag of male toiletries'

https://twitter.com/x/status/1649163211206438912

 

[pizzaman12]

10 weeks was when it was a DP trial which would include a sentencing phase if she was found G

JP only needed 6 with jury selection included and that too is/was a DP case. I'm just genuinely curious at the impact that "miscalculation" has (if any). I can't remember the case but I just saw a judge admonish (I think the prosecution) for overstating how long the trial was going to to last only to have it wrap up far sooner.