Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 16, Tammy Daybell, 49, Sept & Oct 2019 *Arrests* #60

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Yes, Alex was cremated - and the second autopsy was only a review of the samples taken at the original autopsy. I guess we will never know on this one.
I know Joe Ryan was cremated and the second autopsy was limited to a few saved samples. I don’t think Alex had a second autopsy (yet) and don’t recall if he was cremated or not. If he was, hopefully they saved every sample they could think of.

I’m not sure they’ll bother investigating further though. There are no friends or relatives demanding justice for Alex, in fact his family probably wants to avoid reopening it at all costs. Look how long it took to get LE off their duffs re CV’s death even w/family and national media pressure.

And the decision makers probably reason if it turns out he was murdered, he was scum and deserved it. Plus Lori and Chad will already have several life sentences by the time it comes to trial, which leaves Z who may have immunity.

If Z’s immunity only extends to CV’s death and the press makes a stink and/or the DA has a real desire for justice, perhaps they’ll take another look.

I hope they do!
 
Regarding AC’s death, a pulmonary embolism isn’t a ‘guess’ or ‘go-to’ if they can’t find anything else during an autopsy. It’s an actual clot that probably traveled from his legs as a deep vein emboli/thrombosis and up to his lungs. A PE can be very fatal very very fast.

I once had a patient come into the ER screaming she couldn’t breathe and couldn’t be calmed down. There’s a little saying ‘if you can talk you can breathe’ so while we knew something was wrong we also knew she was ‘breathing’, but that’s how awful a PE is. She ended up dying within an hour of arriving to the ER from a PE. You can also have small (ignorable) symptoms for a while before it becomes fatal.

You don’t even need to be unhealthy to get a PE. Serena Williams got a PE after a long plane flight and some recent lower extremity injuries (both huge risk factors for PE). It’s all about clots and blood viscosity and blood pressure, etc. Hadn’t AC traveled to Las Vegas before his death to get married? He was probably pretty immobile for long periods of time, may not have been taking his BP meds, under stress which could have raised his BP and HR.

My point is, PEs are scary and sudden and can literally happen to anyone. I know we’d like to see the villains in this story be responsible for his death because it fits a narrative that makes more sense than him dying so suddenly and conveniently, but I just don’t see the ME getting this wrong. You can’t really induce a clot like that just to kill someone, and if you could it’s doubtful it would be big enough or travel far enough to cause a PE, Heart attack, or stroke without stopping at smaller veins first.

A PSA before I go, if you’re going to travel it’s important to walk and stretch your legs every hour and if your MD says it’s okay take a baby aspirin before.

MOO.
Completely agree. Anyone can get a PE and there are usually no warning signs. Which is why an untested-for substance that encourages blood clots would be an excellent murder weapon.
 
Regarding AC’s death, a pulmonary embolism isn’t a ‘guess’ or ‘go-to’ if they can’t find anything else during an autopsy. It’s an actual clot that probably traveled from his legs as a deep vein emboli/thrombosis and up to his lungs. A PE can be very fatal very very fast.

I once had a patient come into the ER screaming she couldn’t breathe and couldn’t be calmed down. There’s a little saying ‘if you can talk you can breathe’ so while we knew something was wrong we also knew she was ‘breathing’, but that’s how awful a PE is. She ended up dying within an hour of arriving to the ER from a PE. You can also have small (ignorable) symptoms for a while before it becomes fatal.

You don’t even need to be unhealthy to get a PE. Serena Williams got a PE after a long plane flight and some recent lower extremity injuries (both huge risk factors for PE). It’s all about clots and blood viscosity and blood pressure, etc. Hadn’t AC traveled to Las Vegas before his death to get married? He was probably pretty immobile for long periods of time, may not have been taking his BP meds, under stress which could have raised his BP and HR.

My point is, PEs are scary and sudden and can literally happen to anyone. I know we’d like to see the villains in this story be responsible for his death because it fits a narrative that makes more sense than him dying so suddenly and conveniently, but I just don’t see the ME getting this wrong. You can’t really induce a clot like that just to kill someone, and if you could it’s doubtful it would be big enough or travel far enough to cause a PE, Heart attack, or stroke without stopping at smaller veins first.

A PSA before I go, if you’re going to travel it’s important to walk and stretch your legs every hour and if your MD says it’s okay take a baby aspirin before.

MOO.

The ME did mention that if additional information came forward it could change the findings.

Something as seemingly innocuous as squirting a bottle of tasteless Visine eye drops into someone's soft drink can kill them and produce blood clots and a PE.

The timing is just so odd on AC's death that it warrants further investigation. JMOO
 
i agree with you that Lori would welcome the Death penalty, being that she is a goddess after all. :rolleyes:
But I believe Chad would cry like a baby. I don’t for one second think he ever believed his bs.


I don't think he did, either. He was just lucky to have found such a gullible, cult-minded follower in LVD, and he used his tall tales to convince her to kill her children, husband, and brother. I don't know that she killed them personally, but he got her to accept that they had to die.

I would like to see him face the DP. I think he's pure evil.
 
Lori’s sister, Summer, certainly knew Zulema, one of Chads worshippers, very well. And if you watch the video of Justin Lum’s interview with Lori’s nephew I think you will find the family all did as Lori told them to. Lori’s mother and sister are certainly suspect in looking back at their interviews, as much that they said was not true. They knew much more than they stated.


I agree. They're all cultists, and Zulema may very well be Alex's murderer.
 
I am convinced that they were all deluded cult believer's the only person i have never been ceartain of is chad, I have always felt more as though he was the master manipulator of the cult, he was the one coming up with all these b's stories about people being possessed and coming up with all these light and dark tables and past lives etc.

I think Lori was just a manipulator in general life period and chad was the religious manipulator, the two of them combined = utter disaster.
 
Still hoping more information comes out about MP, There's no doubt in my mind she was a part of this especially in the attempted murder of her husband Brandon. She has also stood out for me in all her interviews as one of the creepiest fake smiling one of them all, I honestly don't know what it is exactly but something about her really rubs me the wrong way, and that's very very rare for me.

MP reminds of of a movie i watched many years ago i can't remember the name but its about this town in the middle of nowhere, a guy a takes a wrong turn down this road to the town and his car breaks down, iirc a police officer from the town comes to rescue him all the people in the town have these super weird smiles and act really nice but the entire town is a weird cult and anybody that enters the town is not allowed to leave, the police and everything are all in on it. Also if anybody knows the movie please let me know, would love to watch it again.
 
Still hoping more information comes out about MP, There's no doubt in my mind she was a part of this especially in the attempted murder of her husband Brandon. She has also stood out for me in all her interviews as one of the creepiest fake smiling one of them all, I honestly don't know what it is exactly but something about her really rubs me the wrong way, and that's very very rare for me.

MP reminds of of a movie i watched many years ago i can't remember the name but its about this town in the middle of nowhere, a guy a takes a wrong turn down this road to the town and his car breaks down, iirc a police officer from the town comes to rescue him all the people in the town have these super weird smiles and act really nice but the entire town is a weird cult and anybody that enters the town is not allowed to leave, the police and everything are all in on it. Also if anybody knows the movie please let me know, would love to watch it again.
I remember that movie too. Last night I watched a movie called The Lottery. Keri Russell was one of the stars. It was about a small town that had a lottery every year where one person from each family had to draw a card and the one person who drew a marked card had to be stoned to death by the whole town. They were all convinced by doing this barbaric act, the town stayed pure and Godly.. Just very freaky. LVD probably watched too many of these types of movies.
 
The ME did mention that if additional information came forward it could change the findings.

Something as seemingly innocuous as squirting a bottle of tasteless Visine eye drops into someone's soft drink can kill them and produce blood clots and a PE.

The timing is just so odd on AC's death that it warrants further investigation. JMOO
Didn't Alec make a call to Chad while he was dying? I thought I read that somewhere. He wanted prayers said, maybe? Some medical people have said that there are poisons that can create blood clots. I'll never believe it was just poor timing that Alec died that day. His quick marriage, her actions on that day and knowing these people know how to kill, convinced me Alec was murdered.
 
Thank you, sleuths, for your awesome posts- I liked many more than I “Like”d if you know what l mean.

Alex’s death is so suspiciously timed. But it is hard to argue with a medical finding of a PE. It seems a lousy method of murder or suicide if timing matters. I am not an expert in any related field, but I am decently read. I don’t see how anyone could be certain to cause a blood clot, or be certain it decides to lodge itself fatally.

One of the most suss details of his death is the timing. I would think deliberately developing a PE would be impossible to time. But...there is such thing as dumb luck. The timing of his death was lucky- natural, homicide, or suicide.

It occurred to me last night that when Gibb, on the call she placed and recorded, and that opened with, “Hello sweet Melanie,” she quoted Alex as agreeing she didn’t want to know what happened to the JJ. The Hawaii end seemed stumped and upset by that. But they could have argued that they were saying the same thing. They were hinting that they were protecting Melanie by not giving more information. I find it weird that they thought of the convo with Alex as it was cryptically related as a very different thing than the cryptic conversation they were in.

Lori and Chad seemed mad at Alex for that conversation, and maybe they blamed him for the inconsistencies in Chandler, which are back in our minds. There are many reasons to think Alex was no longer useful. And, while Chad is full of himself surrounded by believers, he is a coward and a manipulator.

Heck, if I were married to Lori I would want Alex out of the picture given the fates of Joe and Charles. Greed, lust, power, etc. are not the only reasons to be wary of him!

I do Believe the autopsy, but it is also obvious to me that Zac has clear eyes on this crazy case, and he can’t believe natural causes. So there is that- hard to discount his opinion.

A couple of things have come to mind since the latest charge of conspiracy to murder Charles.

When Wood was talking to Summer about speaking to investigators, he was suggesting Chad manipulated Lori, even committed spiritual abuse, but that Lori was more of the doer and easier to prosecute. This rhymes with the Chandler affidavit, in my opinion. It says, “There is no obvious communication found between Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell to show that he was directly involved with the planning of Charles Vallow’s murder.” I read that sentence and thought, so there must be subtle evidence of indirect communication, or the sentence would not have needed the modifiers ‘obvious’ or ‘directly.’

The charging summary also left unanswered why Charles entered the house. And, I think it suggests he left his phone in the car? I recall one narrative of Tylee holding J.J. in the car. Charles’ rental? I have to back and see if that was a theory, a witness account...

And ... flip flops? Lori and Tylee stopped for flip-flops? I am going back to the body cam next to see if they wore them home.

MOO

PS: Being manipulated does not make it okay to ... do any of the horrific crimes in this case. I note that prosecutors in 2 jurisdictions seem to be hinting to Lori that they feel she was manipulated- and Wood even said spiritual abuse once. It’s possible they are right. It is possible they are themselves trying to illicit a confession by offering an explanation they don’t fully believe. But in any case, manipulated and/or abused or not, I am certainly not trying to defend the actions Lori is charged with.

MOO MOO, MOO
 
I'm sure they missed a bunch of stuff on site, but the timeline and bullet trajectories needed to be studied further to prove that Alex and Lori were lying.

I recall Annie’s plausible assertion that the jurisdiction was carefully chosen for friends of JM. I can’t figure out why they didn’t arrest Alex on the spot for returning from his room, by his account, rather than locking the door. At the very least, that would force Lori and Alex to answer (or not answer) such questions separately. It is very reasonable to doubt self defense from Alex’s story alone, before any forensics or even before comparing with other stories . I’m inclined to agree with Annie; atop white privilege and the dazzle of big homes and a giggling blonde —- there was some JM - related heads up that Lori and Alex are “good” people —- try to give them a break.
 
And ... flip flops? Lori and Tylee stopped for flip-flops? I am going back to the body cam next to see if they wore them home.

I am 99% sure Tylee wore flip-flops in the video after CV's death. I also find this really strange - to stop at 8am, after much stress (as they said) from the fight, after hearing gunshot, to get flip-flops?.. There should be a reason. Ruined shoes?
But I guess facts like these we'll never know
 
Thinking.
Sorry does anyone remember when Chad and Lori met?
I think it was after Joe Ryan died but before Charles Vallow died.
Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow: A timeline of mysterious deaths and missing children
According to a former friend of Lori who remains anonymous, Lori was especially intrigued with Chad’s fictional series called "Standing in Holy Places," which centered on apocalyptic scenarios loosely based on Mormon theology.

Lori’s friend said, "Those books she got really obsessed with and she started buying me those books too. She must have gotten close to him from his books.“

2018 - Lori Vallow meets Chad Daybell

According the East Idaho News, Lori met Chad Daybell in 2018, when he was teaching an evening class at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which she attended.

The two reportedly became close immediately, traveling together to a religious conference in St. George, Utah, where Chad gave talks on his books. The two reportedly continued speaking daily from the time of their first meeting.
 
Apologies in advance for the following wordiness. Trying to sort my thoughts after a quick read of the document.
I’m glad these morons were stupid enough to leave a trail of text messages.
I still can’t wrap my head around what caused this group of people (even larger than we imagined) to engage in this bizarre conspiracy. Maybe once it started it became a sunken-cost fallacy that snowballed? Did their followers understand that the affair was the real trigger for the violent deaths? How could adults devote themselves to this death cult narrative? I know people believe what they want to believe, but were any of them threatened by the core players? Blackmailed?
At its core, this ‘group’ of people (cult is the proper term?) was just a gang of criminals using their weird belief system as a way to excuse all their sins.
Thinking of Charles’ loved ones as I watch today unfold. How terrible it is to know that more people would be alive now if Arizona hadn’t botched the case. I know I’m a broken record, but I wish just one of the conspirators would do the right thing and confess, to spare everyone years and years of legal proceedings. I think many of us are getting the Arias/Anthony whiff from this case, especially given the scope and complexity. I’d hate for it to play out like that.

Sunken cost fallacy sounds like a very good explanation for the behaviors of people who tolerated and defended increasingly implausible explanations and defenses for deaths and missing persons around them, in MOO.

You know if you go back and look at her and Means when she appears and they don't read the charges and she's smiling and was competent enough to look decent, she makes a move like she wants to say something..moo moo JMO..

There are differences between knowing right from wrong, having mental illnesses like sociopathy, and being mentally competent to participate in defense. I suspect what Lori wanted to say was not something she should, per her lawyer, and it could be that mental health professionals agree that she is not now able to make a competent decision as to what to say. Of course, people don’t have to listen to their lawyers, but it is different if she is not getting the possible outcomes of each decision now.

Many have pointed out her ability to not go all Nephi-comparison crazy or talk about Ned with law enforcement. I agree that it demonstrates competence and consciousness of (worldly) guilt. It does not show absence of mental health issues.

I suspect, especially having reread the Wood-Summer talk that ticked off MM, that there are hints that Lori may have lost her ability to turn off the Nephi crazy around the ordinary earthlings whom she had previously understood would not get it.

Summer actually implies Lori does not really know what she did right now, and Summer said Lori was in a “state.” I missed it then, because I read it before the competency thing came up.

Obviously, I don’t know Lori’s current mental “state,” and I am not qualified to evaluate it. So this is speculation. But I think Lori wants to call Jesus, Nephi and anyone else who understands the importance of her mission as witnesses to her defense. I don’t think she is the same charmer we watched on body cam.

MOS- my own speculation.
 
I am 99% sure Tylee wore flip-flops in the video after CV's death. I also find this really strange - to stop at 8am, after much stress (as they said) from the fight, after hearing gunshot, to get flip-flops?.. There should be a reason. Ruined shoes?
But I guess facts like these we'll never know

That or they needed them for their celebratory pool party? JMO
 
I recall Annie’s plausible assertion that the jurisdiction was carefully chosen for friends of JM. I can’t figure out why they didn’t arrest Alex on the spot for returning from his room, by his account, rather than locking the door. At the very least, that would force Lori and Alex to answer (or not answer) such questions separately. It is very reasonable to doubt self defense from Alex’s story alone, before any forensics or even before comparing with other stories . I’m inclined to agree with Annie; atop white privilege and the dazzle of big homes and a giggling blonde —- there was some JM - related heads up that Lori and Alex are “good” people —- try to give them a break.
Plausible can be far from probable. I have yet to see proof that JM was in any way involved in Charles' death. He would have to be a member of the inner cult and accept the doctrine to find the murder justifiable. Otherwise, what was in it for him? This bunch weren't good planners, they were just lucky to a certain degree. (IMO)
 
It occurred to me last night that when Gibb, on the call she placed and recorded, and that opened with, “Hello sweet Melanie,” she quoted Alex as agreeing she didn’t want to know what happened to the JJ. The Hawaii end seemed stumped and upset by that. But they could have argued that they were saying the same thing. They were hinting that they were protecting Melanie by not giving more information. I find it weird that they thought of the convo with Alex as it was cryptically related as a very different thing than the cryptic conversation they were in.
IMO "You don't want to know" has a certain negative connotation. It means that things are bad. "I can't tell you" would be more neutral. Alex could have easily said that the children were fine, but he didn't feel like lying. MG couldn't have verified it. Lori protested because she knew how it sounded. If he knew that something happened to the kids that would mean that she knew as well, so she accused him of lying.
 
Didn't Alec make a call to Chad while he was dying? I thought I read that somewhere. He wanted prayers said, maybe? Some medical people have said that there are poisons that can create blood clots. I'll never believe it was just poor timing that Alec died that day. His quick marriage, her actions on that day and knowing these people know how to kill, convinced me Alec was murdered.


Yes! Alex's quick marriage to a very good friend of Chad and Lori. It's almost as if the heat was starting to get too hot in the kitchen and Chad decided Alex was a loose end that needed tying up--at least a couple of weeks in advance. So, he has Zulema and Alex marry, knowing Zulema will do his bidding and off Alex.

JMOO, to all of that, of course, but with interest in Tammy's death starting to heat up, and the national focus on the kids, Chad had to do something--but do it from a distance so he was not associated with Alex's death.

Enter ZP...

The Melaniece thing is also fascinating. She seems too airheaded to come up with murder on her own, but if she was in the inner circle, Brandon's death could have been ordered by CD, as a favor to her, and perhaps he would seek payback later in an intimate way. Alex knew way too much and was way too involved for his own good. I wonder if he ever suspected CD would turn on him?
 
I am 99% sure Tylee wore flip-flops in the video after CV's death. I also find this really strange - to stop at 8am, after much stress (as they said) from the fight, after hearing gunshot, to get flip-flops?.. There should be a reason. Ruined shoes?
But I guess facts like these we'll never know


Anyone one in their right mind would be on the cellphone to 911 as soon as a shot was heard.

Then again, LVD wasn't in her right mind. She was in a murderous state of mind.

Tylee had to have known what was happening--at least to some degree--because she backed up the bat and attack story. That gave Chad another reason to get rid of Tylee--she was another loose string.
 
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