If you agree or disagree with the verdict, let us know why

[HatesSociopaths]

I do believe it was possible there was meat in the bag at some point, maybe old food thrown away from the fridge even. But, after sitting in the trunk for 2+ weeks, it broke down to a puddle. I also believe that this puddle could've spilled in the trunk since the bag was not completely sealed.

Cindy is that you?

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

I know from personal experience that college age guys eat like vultures, so I'm not surprised there was no food in the bag. Is it not standard practice for CSI folks to destroy bench notes AFTER transferring their findings to their official report. And if the trash was such a big deal, why did the car smell 2 years after the trash bag was removed and CA cleaned the car ?

College kids do eat a lot. I don't know about CSI folks bench notes, but I do know FBI folks keep all their bench notes. I guess that when CA removed those few pieces of paper and sprayed the febreze in the car, which is what I think she testified to about cleaning out the car, it didn't mask the smell that had been caused by a white bag filled with garbage that sat in the Florida sun for nearly 3 weeks in the trunk. I know beyond any doubt at all that there was a kitchen trash bag in that trunk. I do not know BARD that there had been a body in that trunk, so I would have to think the smell even two years later had come from rotting garbage that permeated the car after sitting for weeks in July in a tow yard.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

 

[beccalecca1]

Cindy is that you?

Sorry, I meant to add a couple :floorlaugh::floorlaugh: in my response, but was too quick to push the submit button. :innocent:

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Absence of evidence, is not by itself, evidence of absence. Yes some in the garage and in the back seat did not smell decomposition, but those with most expertise and who examined the trunk carefully did.

It is NOT true that every single piece of evidence from the trunk has reasonable doubt.

Even if you discount George and Cindy's testimony, which I do not, the others are pieces of evidence that are not subject to reasonable doubt.

Why is the trained dog's observation subject to reasonable doubt? Dogs don't lie and are not biased.

Why is Forgey's testimony subject to reasonable doubt?

Why is SB's testimony subject to reasonable doubt?

Why is Dr. Vass examination of the smell subject to reasonable doubt?

Why is Dr. Haskell's testimony on the smell subject to reasonable doubt?

It is NOT reasonable IMO to dismiss these four witnesses, and the dog (plus George and Cindy) because others who did not examine the trunk carefully did not smell decomposition.

What reasonable explanation can you provide for all these witnesses to be mistaken?

Is it really reasonable to assume that all the experienced experts, particularly the dog would confuse rotting trash (call it garbage if you will) for human decomposition. I am sorry but that IMO is not reasonable.

Even Dr. Huntington, the defense witness, had to admit in cross-examination that the car smelled two years after the trash had been removed.

Is it reasonable to assume that the lingering smell after two years was a result of trash or garbage. That, IMO, is not reasonable. That, IMO, is wild speculation.

The totality of the evidence of the smell in the car establishes, IMO, way beyond a reasonable doubt that there was a decomposing body in the trunk.

And even if a single strand of banded hair could be explained away, it cannot be explained away with the overwhelming evidence for the smell in the trunk.

The evidence for Caylee's decomposing body being in Casey's trunk is overwhelming.

I respect your opinion, and it is obvious that we will just have to agree to disagree about the trunk evidence.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

 

[logicalgirl]

<modsnip>

Yes what you say is true, but the bashing was not accusing George and CA or Lee, because the LE cleared them. It was the attitude of the family that Caylee was alive when clearly evidence proved there was decomp in the trunk of the car, supporting CFCA regarding the ridiculous kidnapping scenario, pretending they knew all about ZFG, attempting to get rid of evidence, and not publicly supporting Caylee except through putting up posters, buying a motor boat, going on programs and insisting CFCA was innocent, raising donations that didn't seem to be spent on searching for Caylee, selling videos and pictures of Caylee, then going on a mini cruise, getting tattoos in "Caylee's memory", being generally obnoxious in public and in particular at the ZFG depositions - sending CFCA money in prison which she spent on treats, while not supporting Caylee, for sitting on the defense side and cooperating with the defense while not being honest with the LE - treating Tim Miller disgracefully, the list goes on and on and on.

But no one EVER suggested GA covered up the accidental death of his beloved grand daughter, bagged and duct taped her and threw her in a garbage swamp to rot. And nobody suggested he was a pedophile or in the case of post verdict reporting - insisted based on no facts but a lie from Baez!

 

[HatesSociopaths]

Sorry, I meant to add a couple :floorlaugh::floorlaugh: in my response, but was too quick to push the submit button. :innocent:

Ditto!

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

Okay so I am dying to ask this in a lighthearted way:

Would you let Casey babysit your kids?

 

[Who_What_When]

My bolding in red

Are you intentionally taking it out of context or trying to spilt hairs? I am really sincerely confused.

The words "the" and "before" are the operative words. She did use it but hopefully it was beforehand so that caylee wasn't suffering and knowing what her mother was doing to her.

Major difference when the entire statement is kept in context and not parsed.

JA believed throughout the trial that the chloroform and duct tape were both used, to say at the very end he said he was hoping it was even used is illogical and just not true.

No, I'm not. I made a reference to his use of the word hope. I said, he said "he could only hope it was". You then said he didn't say this, that's when I posted his quote. I never said anything else. The way you interrupted his statement is different then how I interrupted it. This is perfectly normal as not every person will see or hear something the same way. I feel that his statement in full context "We can only hope that the chloroform was used before the tape was applied so that Caylee went peacefully without feeling", does not speak confidence to me. There also was no other mention of chloroform being used on Caylee so even if I felt this statement meant it was used, they never proved it.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

If the smell from the trunk was coming from the garbage, FCA would have removed it herself. She texted AH about the smell and would have done the obvious step of getting the garbage out of the car! That is reasonable, right?

Not if she had forgotten that it was in the trunk. IMO

 

[beccalecca1]

Yes what you say is true, but the bashing was not accusing George and CA or Lee, because the LE cleared them. It was the attitude of the family that Caylee was alive when clearly(I don't believe it was that clear, especially given the verdict and the debates on this thread and others) evidence proved there was decomp in the trunk of the car, supporting CFCA regarding the ridiculous kidnapping scenario, pretending they knew all about ZFG, attempting to get rid of evidence, and not publicly supporting Caylee except through putting up posters, buying a motor boat, going on programs and insisting CFCA was innocent, raising donations that didn't seem to be spent on searching for Caylee, selling videos and pictures of Caylee, then going on a mini cruise, getting tattoos in "Caylee's memory", being generally obnoxious in public and in particular at the ZFG depositions - sending CFCA money in prison which she spent on treats, while not supporting Caylee, for sitting on the defense side and cooperating with the defense while not being honest with the LE - treating Tim Miller disgracefully, the list goes on and on and on. (After this list, how could one not wonder if he was covering something up? Especially with the treatment of Tim Miller, the man who ran the organization that would assist in finding your granddaughter)

But no one EVER suggested GA covered up the accidental death of his beloved grand daughter, bagged and duct taped her and threw her in a garbage swamp to rot. And nobody suggested he was a pedophile or in the case of post verdict reporting - insisted based on no facts but a lie from Baez!

Response in red.

 

[logicalgirl]

She could have been but I didn't see any proof of this presented at the trial. I don't feel it was proven that Chloroform was used, but that's my opinion so I guess we can agree to disagree. I will agree however that it is very sad that we'll never really know.

I welcomed suggestions on where the extremely high amounts of chloroform found in the trunk came from. And no point suggesting cleaning products because many multiple searches were done with manufacturers and no such ingredients were found,

So why - months later did the trunk still contain chloroform? It came from somewhere and CFCA was the only person who deleted any reference to chloroform off of her computer.

 

[txsvicki]

If the smell from the trunk was coming from the garbage, FCA would have removed it herself. She texted AH about the smell and would have done the obvious step of getting the garbage out of the car! That is reasonable, right?

Why didn't the state bring up comparisons like this and make a big point of it! It could show that Casey knew that the smell was not the trash. Casey knew that the smell was a dead decomposing body, because of the dead squirrel excuse in texts to Amy. She was in and out of that trunk putting in trash bags, gas cans, removing gas cans, etc. Also, with that smell, not a word was said questioning why she would leave Caylee's little backpack in that trunk, and even her doll in the vehicle. It was proven that things inside the vehicle had absorbed the smell by the time the Anthony's got it home, and it was proven to be stinking long before with the texting. She should have taken Caylee's things out if she thought they would be needed again. The car was hidden away beside a dumpster due to the smell instead of taking the Anthony's car home and leaving it there with trunk and doors open to air out the "garbage" smell. I'm getting mad all over again about the jurors' lack of connecting information and not seeing that the car was purposely hidden away just like Caylee.

 

[HatesSociopaths]

Not if she had forgotten that it was in the trunk. IMO

The smell would have reminded her. At the least she would have opened the trunk to see what was in there. She texted about it on more than one occasion. The dots don't connect. IMO.

 

[Sustained]

College kids do eat a lot. I don't know about CSI folks bench notes, but I do know FBI folks keep all their bench notes. I guess that when CA removed those few pieces of paper and sprayed the febreze in the car, which is what I think she testified to about cleaning out the car, it didn't mask the smell that had been caused by a white bag filled with garbage that sat in the Florida sun for nearly 3 weeks in the trunk. I know beyond any doubt at all that there was a kitchen trash bag in that trunk. I do not know BARD that there had been a body in that trunk, so I would have to think the smell even two years later had come from rotting garbage that permeated the car after sitting for weeks in July in a tow yard.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

Sorry, don't buy it for a minute. I live in Orlando and have a similar garbage in the trunk experience to share. I was on the way to the airport park-n-ride one morning and on the way out the door, my wife handed me the previous day's garbage (including raw chicken parts) and asked me to put out to the street. Get outside, garbage men down the street past my house. Well I toss the bag into the back of the SUV with the intent of trashing it at the park-n-fly ... traffic jam on the way to the park-n-fly and I'm late ... and I forget to dump the trash. Returning 10 days later, my car is reeking with the odor of the garbage bag (only the inside) and I throw the bag into the dumpster. Car stunk for a day or so, but the odor disappeared totally in a couple of days. The only difference was the timeframe (September).

Two years is a long time ...

 

[WillChgo]

IMO saying that chloroform was used is the same as saying it was an accident. Neither was proven. Even Ashton couldn't say for certain that it was used. He said he could only "hope" it was. This was one of the main problem with the trial. There was nothing proving BARD that Casey ever used chloroform on Caylee.

There was significant direct evidence that there was unusual amounts of chloroform in the air and carpet of the trunk. There was NO direct evidence of an accident, only weak circumstantial evidence.

While I believe the preponderance of the evidence points to it I would have to agree that there is no proof BARD that chloroform directly contributed to Caylee's death.

That doesn't mean that Casey is not guilty.

The smell and banding hair together with Casey's behavior is IMO, proof BARD of at least manslaughter.

The duct tape evidence adds, IMO, evidence that when examined in its totality proves first degree murder, BARD.

 

[beccalecca1]

Ditto!

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

Okay so I am dying to ask this in a lighthearted way:

Would you let Casey babysit your kids?

Honestly?

No way... but I have to add that I don't let anyone babysit my children, unless it's their grandparents, aunts (and not even all of their aunts because of some trouble they bring), or licensed daycare specialists who are CPR certified. I spend a lot of time with my children (needless to say), but that way they're aren't exposed to some of the things that young children shouldn't be exposed to (but, sadly, often are).

 

[RANCH]

I just took some laundry out of the dryer and it reminded me of something.Baez claimed that the OCSO CSI destroyed evidence by putting the trash/garbage in a dry room.My clothes are now dry but not destroyed.Was Baez right or wrong in his claim?

 

[kgeaux]

I already have been freaking out at the number of people who think there was not enough evidence to find her guilty. And if I had a dollar for every time someone posted that the prosecutor had to prove guilt, I'd be a rich man.

Don't you think us verdict opposers KNOW THAT ???

Oh, and a simple question for you ... would you let FCA babysit your 2-year-old if you had one ? Please take a minute like DCS did on Joy Behar before responding ...

I understand what you are saying, but people who believe that there was not enough evidence to find her guilty are at least basing their findings on the current restraints of our legal system. People who are saying she wasn't proven innocent are not basing their opinion on how our legal system works, because NO defendant ever has to prove innocence. Ever.

We can agree to parse the evidence and come to different conclusions about the verdict. I have based my opinion that the verdict was correct on the evidence that was presented, and you have based your opinion on the evidence presented also. Cool deal.

And I am shocked at the admittedly few posts that repeat over and over that the defense didn't need to prove anything. I think we all agree the law does not require the defense to prove anything. But if members are going to base their opinion of the verdict on the DT's OS, (accidental drowning, GA's involvement) then they should be prepared to back it up with facts and evidence that supports their opinion. This isn't a courtroom, it's a message board. If you think KC is innocent, explain your position with facts and evidence.


The prosecution did prove guilt. The facts prove guilt. The evidence supports guilt. The only people who don't agree seem to be ones who are going with the DT's OS which, I repeat, is not evidence.

FWIW, GA should be presumed innocent too, ya know. What facts were presented that so few seem so willing to convict him on?

I don't know if you've read my previous posts, but to clarify my position:

My belief that there is reasonable doubt has NOTHING to do with the opening statements. Opening statements can be powerful, but they are not evidence. My belief is based soley on the evidence presented. I believe the defense was able to point out the "iffyness" of much of the evidence the prosecutors presented. I believe there is reasonable doubt that the tape was over the child's face. I believe there is reasonable doubt that the body was decomposing in the trunk. I believe there is reasonable doubt that chloroform was ever used on the child, and I KNOW the prosecution never presented a shred of evidence that Casey purchased the materials needed to make chloroform, nor any evidence that she ever made chloroform.

I do not need to believe Caylee drowned to find that the prosecution failed to prove Caylee was MURDERED and that CASEY did it.

Also, finding reasonable doubt based on the evidence does not mean that I "feel" Casey is guilty or not guilty. It is based on the way the law reads about coming to a decision about a verdict. And honestly, I don't understand your statement, which I've bolded. It's just a matter of using the evidence to determine guilt or not guilty. Honestly, I don't see too many posts calling Casey innocent!

There is not one shred of anything that points to a drowning and FCA panicing. FCA is a psychopath/she killed her child, went to Blockbuster with TonE and then to his place. FCA continued to whooop it up for 30 more days.
Psychopaths don't panic.

Has any professional who has ever examined Casey determined that she is a psychopath?

I'm thinking if I was a DA and saw a child's skull covered in duct tape after the remains were found tossed into a swamp, I'd probably go for the heavier charges myself..

SA should always bring the charges he can prove.....whatever that is.

Caylee could have been choroformed a few hours earlier while KC was out driving around, and then duct taped later while she was awake and killed. Sadly, we'll never know. He was hoping about her being choroformed right before death so she wouldn't suffer. Not hoping that it was used at all. They state had people testify about chloroform so I'm sure they contended that it was definitely used.

There was no definitive evidence presented that Caylee was ever chloroformed......IMO

 

[beccalecca1]

Sorry, don't buy it for a minute. I live in Orlando and have a similar garbage in the trunk experience to share. I was on the way to the airport park-n-ride one morning and on the way out the door, my wife handed me the previous day's garbage (including raw chicken parts) and asked me to put out to the street. Get outside, garbage men down the street past my house. Well I toss the bag into the back of the SUV with the intent of trashing it at the park-n-fly ... traffic jam on the way to the park-n-fly and I'm late ... and I forget to dump the trash. Returning 10 days later, my car is reeking with the odor of the garbage bag (only the inside) and I throw the bag into the dumpster. Car stunk for a day or so, but the odor disappeared totally in a couple of days. The only difference was the timeframe (September).

Two years is a long time ...

The only difference was time of year and amount of time in the trunk. She left her car at Amscot on the 27th, it was picked up on the 15th, that alone is 18 days in June/July. Who knows when the bag was placed in the trunk to begin with.

 

[logicalgirl]

What really amuses me about this jury's decision of NG besides their inability to go through the process of problem-solving and reasoning, is the audacity of their comments after their decision. They implied they didn't want to be responsible for giving someone the death penalty.

And so supporters of the verdict believe this is just and reasonable.
Except for a couple of things - first and foremost, no one was prepared to march CFCA out of the court room to the waiting execution room immediately following a guilty verdict. To me, the jury acted as if their decision was the final decision - a life was in their hands, her death on their shoulders forever. At least I know the law well enough to know that any guilty verdict can be appealed and appealed until the cows come home.

I also know the law well enough to know they were there to sentence her. They were there to decide guilty or not guilty only. And that there were many alternatives to death for a guilty verdict.

Plus the small fact of them having two other choices of lesser crimes/verdicts. And supporters and jurors wonder why they face a backlash.

We need rules and forms and clearly compulsory classes with pictures for jurors to attend before ever starting day one of a trial.

 

[Who_What_When]

But no one EVER suggested GA covered up the accidental death of his beloved grand daughter, bagged and duct taped her and threw her in a garbage swamp to rot. And nobody suggested he was a pedophile or in the case of post verdict reporting - insisted based on no facts but a lie from Baez!

Snipped by me.

Are you sure about that? There most certainty were posts where some people accused GA or Lee as being involved in her murder or cover up. <modsnip>.