Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #159

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Now that we know clothes were found in the creek, I wonder how nobody saw the clothing that evening or next morning when they were searching. Was it all underwater when found? I wonder which side of the creek the shoe was found, and the clothing, and if the clothing floated downstream from where the shoe was?
Making a note to go back to the scanner thread re: something related to this, which iirc also goes along with the overhead helicopter iirc video of the searchers in a line in the bright outfits, maybe orange/red iirc.
 
+1 and so much this. If you've ever seen lawyers in prep and action they absolutely don't need any starters from amateurs. I come from a family of practicing lawyers and the juniors will have already spun out more scenarios and possibilities within the first 48 hrs than WS will have over the last 5 yrs.

Also this isn't WS first rodeo with regard to speculating on live/ ongoing investigations. If defence or prosecution were using things like WS to prompt their thinking then I think we might have seen evidence of this and adjustments to the AUP and so on.

While I don't think they need starters from amateurs, crowdsourcing is a thing. In other words, one person amongst 1000s of people may notice something the trial team missed.

Legal training is not a pre-requisite to pouring over masses of information to try to create a version.

By far the most complex witness case I have seen is Pistorius, and I believe in that case, several websleuths and external authors created a timeline superior to the prosecution timeline.

Now that may partly have been because the prosecution simply decided against getting so far down in the weeds, but it is not true that no value was added here. The reason for that is quite simply that prosecution teams have less time and resources that one might imagine.

my 02c
 
+1 and so much this. If you've ever seen lawyers in prep and action they absolutely don't need any starters from amateurs. I come from a family of practicing lawyers and the juniors will have already spun out more scenarios and possibilities within the first 48 hrs than WS will have over the last 5 yrs.

Also this isn't WS first rodeo with regard to speculating on live/ ongoing investigations. If defence or prosecution were using things like WS to prompt their thinking then I think we might have seen evidence of this and adjustments to the AUP and so on.

I was thinking that lurking online could be helpful for a defense… not for the legal analysis but for the vox populi they pay jury consultants for…. like for example if many here were saying “I’ll never believe a man that short could commit this crime,” that could let the D know this was an angle to work with a jury.

But that’s life now in this age of instant & omnipresent communication…. and at least this site sticks to responsible discussion! A defense looking for keys to exploit public prejudices will do much better at Reddit et al
Moo
 
Can you tell me who said the jacket was specifically Carhartt?
Cathartic does have some thinner jackets, but what is the source of this exact brand? If the source is RA dismiss it.
Yeah, I was wondering that myself. There’s a very popular brand called Berne here, in northern indiana. It’s about 2/3 the cost of a carhartt for one of these jackets (about $100 most farm stores vs $160-190) and notably… doesn’t have a large manufacturer patch visible. I’m sure there are other brands as well.
 
Yeah, I was wondering that myself. There’s a very popular brand called Berne here, in northern indiana. It’s about 2/3 the cost of a carhartt for one of these jackets (about $100 most farm stores vs $160-190) and notably… doesn’t have a large manufacturer patch visible. I’m sure there are other brands as well.
Anecdotally speaking, I refer to all coats with that same duck canvas as Carhartts, whether it is Carhartt brand, Cabelas, or the Walmart kind. Kind of analogous to Band-Aid.
 
yes this is a strange aspect, because if they couldn't trace the owner - wouldn't they have been able to get a warrant for that device ID, to see at least where it was in following days?

Let's assume it's a burner for arguments sake - couldn't they at least pull records for that number?

Agree. Pull records going back days or expand area until something showed identity.
I remember a case with a burner, they got the identifying registration number from the company but no real name was registered, so they got where and when the phone was purchased and pulled the security footage for that day and were able to identify the perp.
Of course, too late for any phone evidence, I think, even if they have location data on the bridge I doubt they can trace it to him now.
Many of us don’t have the phone we used in Feb 2017 even if we have nothing to hide.
 
Yeah, I was wondering that myself. There’s a very popular brand called Berne here, in northern indiana. It’s about 2/3 the cost of a carhartt for one of these jackets (about $100 most farm stores vs $160-190) and notably… doesn’t have a large manufacturer patch visible. I’m sure there are other brands as well.

Yeah i too thought there should’ve been a brand label there that wasn’t visible in the BG pics! tho those were so blurry that who can say.

The PCA referred to RA’s jacket as a Carhartt per both RA & his wife… but they all could just be using a generalized term for the type of jacket, like frisbee for “flying disc”
 
I remember a case with a burner, they got the identifying registration number from the company but no real name was registered, so they got where and when the phone was purchased and pulled the security footage for that day and were able to identify the perp.
I think the cops also did this on The Wire.
 
Yeah, I was wondering that myself. There’s a very popular brand called Berne here, in northern indiana. It’s about 2/3 the cost of a carhartt for one of these jackets (about $100 most farm stores vs $160-190) and notably… doesn’t have a large manufacturer patch visible. I’m sure there are other brands as well.

The Carhartt logo/patch not being visible on RA coat got my attention, as I have 2 and as far as I know all Carhartts have logo front left pocket area.

Its the front of the coat that I see what looks like some kind of fastener mid way on outside of coat after you zipper it.

Like frog closures.
 
JMO but I think these could be the reasons no one saw the clothes until later on: 1. It got dark quickly when people first started searching; 2. The clothes were upstream from the shoe/bridge and the search was focused downstream towards Delphi; 3. The clothes were entangled in branches of half-submerged limbs/trees when spotted.
Could the water have been a little turbid from recent rains? Creeks can go cafe-au-lait for a while after a gully-washer even if they're normally clear.
 
I think he's talking about the clothes in the water rather than the actual bodies, either way he's a despicable piece of crap. This is the same dude that's written a book apparently with the premise that Ron Logan was BG ffs.
oh ok thank you for clarifying! Still awful but not nearly as awful.
 
From the Allen PCA:

View attachment 385383

From the Logan warrant application:

View attachment 385384
Clothing of both or just one in the creek?
I took it as clothing from both girls were in the creek, but an item from only one of the girls was taken. Again, I know this could be a random, wrong place wrong time, type of crime, but that little detail (among other things) adds to my belief that it was targeted to those specific girls, in that specific time and place. JMO.
 
There is mention of another vehicle in the PCA. I don't know the timing or movements of that vehicle, but is it possible that RA was picked up by the driver of that vehicle and that is why he doesn't appear on the HH store camera?

JMO
Maybe RL? Not that he had anything to do with the murder but gave BG a lift to the old CPS.
 
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There is mention of another vehicle in the PCA. I don't know the timing or movements of that vehicle, but is it possible that RA was picked up by the driver of that vehicle and that is why he doesn't appear on the HH store camera?

JMO

Hmm maybe I missed this!
There were vehicle times associated w many people mentioned to confirm ETA etc … but was there a mystery vehicle ?
There’s been long ??? of possible mystery vehicles, I want to check that out!
 
I think they're the same vehicle just misidentified by 2 different witnesses. One says it's a smart like car and another says it's a PT cruiser like car. But like I've said, 2 young teenage girls or even anyone really probably won't be able to identify make and model of a random car they saw. The Focus is very generic and it was backed it.
 
IMO he was trying to get back to his car in the fastest possible time. If he knew the girls had been dropped off at the park (and I think he did) then he had to logically know that someone was going to arrive to pick the girls up. That person or persons is/are going to search the park first... going to go right straight to the bridge first, imo. There is a walking path along the ridge of the woods below the cemetery but it takes a person straight to the bridge and a choice of taking the drop off path or the main path out of the park and someone looking for the girls isn't going to just walk by saying, "Hello" this time. He's going to be questioned: "Have you seen 2 girls?" He can't take the chance of being stopped and questioned! He can't cross the river and try to cross over that railway bridge because he, of all people knows that's a trap. If he starts crossing the bridge, someone might be coming across the bridge from the other direction. Even if he manages to cross there, he still needs to walk the 3/4 mile of trail to the trailhead and could run into people that way. He can head south at the end of the bridge but, looking at the overhead of the park, you'll see that he now has made his trip to his car almost impossible to do in any kind of timely manner... it's the worst choice of all if LE is called quickly. He can't afford to be seen inside that park all muddied up and bloody. He has no way of knowing if whoever might come to pick the girls up won't call 911 immediately. He walks along the road trying to disassociate himself from the park... he is a guy who might not be noticed or paid any attention to at all by any drivers... for those who might see him, they probably won't stop and question him... they might assume he fell off a dirt bike... or got into a fist fight... or got kicked off by a horse... or had an accident with some farming equipment and is walking to a farm along that road. He took his chances in other words. The woman who claimed to see him didn't stop... didn't question him... remember that most people who would see him have no idea 2 girls are missing and murdered. He probably had his head down and looked to the right or faked walking away from the road due to an oncoming vehicle... remember the young girl witness on the trail who said she "was trying to see his face" yet she couldn't. She was mere feet from him. He's wearing a hoodie and cars might drive by quickly. Yes, he just took his chances... had to get to his car before LE was called. He probably turned his head away from any cameras that probably wouldn't have been able to give a good visual ID anyway.
And, there is always the possibility he went that way because HIS ride was late but he hadn't given up on the idea that his ride would come along. If that was so, his ride would not find him if he was in the park. For all we know, someone picked him up before he had to walk too far anyway. I'm sure, if there is an accomplice, they would be able to communicate by phone when it was time to be picked up.
This is all just my speculation and opinion.
edit to clarify
This is basically what I posted before with regard to him "supposedly" leaving that way. He had no choice. I'm also guessing he knew that route was available to him. I pretty much agree with your scenario.

However I'm not inclined to believe he had anyone else pick him up or otherwise be some sort of accomplice.
 
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