IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #165

[Ravenmoon]

I don't get it. If he went through all of that, why didn't he take a minute to clean himself up a bit...wipe the blood from his face or turn his coat inside-out? Maybe he was in such a frenzy that he didn't even think about being covered in blood?

From the crime scene, he could see the bridge and knew he was somewhat out of sight. Did something spook him so bad that he was frantic to leave the scene?

I can't imagine someone planning on killing someone in a particular area, then parking a mile away.

Somewhere in the beginning of the case there was audio of the search. There is one searcher stating that girl's clothing was found under the bridge. I am not sure if says specifically what items they are or if these are the same items stated to have been found floating in the water. There IS a statement that " undergarments" were floating within the creek itself.

IMO:

He didn't disrobe the girls himself. He made them do it themselves. He was not going to go back and scatter their clothing around and risk being seen. He forced them to undress. He knew that they weren't going to run off stark naked in the open. I think that one of them bolted towards RLs property hoping to hide and take cover in the wooded area. The other may have been left behind. He probably used that in order to guilt the other to resurface.

I don't know exactly where he planned to carry out the assault. I have my suspicions about what occurred once he got them together. None of it is good or allowable for me to say.

It's my opinion that the crime was 100 percent sexually motivated.

Why did he take a chance and walk on the hwy?

Again, JMO:

Libby's phone was left under her body because it was ringing.RA probably knew there was a good chance that the iPhone had a" find my phone" feature and it was too risky to touch. He probably told Libby to turn it off. The phone was his queue that someone was in the area and that they were looking for the girls. He had to get back to his car regardless of who might see him. His only other option would be to hang out in the woods, muddy and bloody with no reasonable explanation.


JMO

 

[minazoe]

he had quite a bit of time after he murdered the girls. they said it happened quickly but then he had time..time to stage , to move them to stage everything..I still wonder if he was wearing a go-pro camera somewhere with a mouth rig..processing film etc, he would see the kind of footage or stills he could get with a gopro. Of course a phone can get him the same thing, it's just not hands free..he doesn't strike me as a tech type though. mOO

 

[dm799]

Incredibly frustrating to watch the Jerry Holeman interview again, knowing what we know now. Everything they needed was already in their possession at that point, they were just too incompetent to put the pieces together.

"Somebody knows what happened. For whatever reason they won't come forward. We wish they would, obviously, because this person's probably gonna do this again, and I'd hate for this to happen to you or your loved ones."

I forget the poster, but someone said something like the authorities turned a run of the mill murder investigation into a multi year perplexing mystery, and I completely agree.

And I'm yet hear even the faintest whiff of contrition from any of them.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Since we have been able to get information from documents and such, there are some things we can say that we now know.

Kelsi s car passed a camera at 1:49 PM. The girls probably gathered their jackets and got to the trailhead at about 1:50.

RA says he was at the trail between 1:30 and 3:30. He says he saw the 3 teen girls going back to their vehicle but didn't speak to them because he was watching a stock ticker. Then he proceeds to platform one on the bridge to watch fish. ( BTW a witness substantiates this because she SEES him in the exact spot) Then he claims to have spent the rest of his time there sitting on a bench near the bridge. Conveniently, he says he never sees LG or AW. Curious isn't it? How he can be planted right there, the girls close by having girl talk and taking photos on the bridge.

Let's also not forget that the adult female also saw who she believes is A and L pass her as she returns to her car.

The timing of his approach towards the girls is fairly tight. It has to be between 2 pm and 2:13 PM.

IMO:

HE made the girls uncomfortable very quickly. LG has been called fearless by her sister, so my guess is that LG wasn't going to allow some weird guy to ruin the hour or so that they had to take photos and look around.

I don't think that they hurried across that bridge! AW had never been on it and was probably pretty nervous crossing it. Meanwhile, I imagine RA pacing back and forth at the end of the bridge and looking to be sure that no one could see him.

I think that once AW was more than half way across, he started walking towards them, essentially trapping them and making them easy prey.

Once it became obvious that he was headed toward them, LG hit record. She knew something wasn't right, but I doubt she had any inkling about the intention he had for them.

JMO

 

[Andreee]

I think it's wild that a grown man would feel the need to take a gun and a knife on a public trail where teen girls are often left to roam unarmed and unsupervised.

Let's hope that isn't the case, kind of puts me off hiking at all if so! Actually, up here in Canada I'm more leery of bears crossing my path!

 

[Andreee]

I don't think she would have done that either. I *do* think she could have been putting filters on the photo and uploading with her head down not noticing a man starting to make his way across the bridge though.

I think Libby was simply videoing her friend's first walk across the bridge, and along came this creep so she kept videoing that.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Incredibly frustrating to watch the Jerry Holeman interview again, knowing what we know now. Everything they needed was already in their possession at that point, they were just too incompetent to put the pieces together.

"Somebody knows what happened. For whatever reason they won't come forward. We wish they would, obviously, because this person's probably gonna do this again, and I'd hate for this to happen to you or your loved ones."

I forget the poster, but someone said something like the authorities turned a run of the mill murder investigation into a multi year perplexing mystery, and I completely agree.

And I'm yet hear even the faintest whiff of contrition from any of them.

Your Holeman quote continues with: "That's the message that I want to get out to the public, that if you do know, for sure you need to let us know so we can possibly stop this from happening again to your daughter, or your mother, or sister, or anybody. Could be brother or father as well, so..."

The part I made red was the reason I thought the murder was not sexually motivated. People were split on how Holeman meant that. I took it in the context of the rest of that sentence.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Your Holeman quote continues with: "That's the message that I want to get out to the public, that if you do know, for sure you need to let us know so we can possibly stop this from happening again to your daughter, or your mother, or sister, or anybody. Could be brother or father as well, so..."

The part I made red was the reason I thought the murder was not sexually motivated. People were split on how Holeman meant that. I took it in the context of the rest of that sentence.

Could you elaborate?
I don't understand.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Could you elaborate?
I don't understand.

I took that to mean 'it could happen again to any of your females or your males as well.'

Some people thought it was saying the murderer could be your father or your brother.

 

[photographer4]

JH said something else interesting, earlier in that interview.
..................
mm 27:48

AM: Is there more audio that was found on Libby's phone?

JH: Yes.

AM: Is that something that would be released?

JH: Not at this point. We've discussed it and at this point we don't think it'll help the investigation at this time. It doesn't appear to be anything more than some discussion between the girls, things like that so... and we've only released a portion of it. There's some others that we think could help us but again protecting the integrity of the investigation is the key here so we can't release everything we have because there's only certain people that know the details and if we release everything, then we get into possible false confessions and people over-exaggerating and embellishing information and putting on Facebook like we already battle with, so we can only give so much.
...............
I noted the plural "others," which I think could possibly mean there is something besides the 43 second video that they think could be helpful, but that they are concerned about releasing (although he could be talking about the gun stuff, I suppose). That's only my interpretation. If there was an unsettling exchange on the north side of the bridge, for example, and the girls discuss this in a recording, or something like that, it could also help explain why L and A were uncomfortable enough to start the 43 second video. Jmo.

There had to be something unsettling b/c I recall one investigator commenting something to effect of one girl (he declined to say which girl) realizing what was about to happen.....
We've discussed it here loads before, but I don't have the link handy (why do I never keep the links dang it!?)

 

[TL4S]

I think they have more video of him too. I remember that Q and A and I took Leazenby’s non-answer answer as an admission they had more video from outside sources.
A lot depends on the route he drove to and from the trails. Delphi is a small town but if he drove from his house to the trails or vice versa and went through town, there are plenty of places he would pass that probably have security cameras. Banks, government buildings, schools etc.

Yes, in the April 2019 PC, when they announced about the vehicle parked at CPS lot, they later said that vehicle was related to them thinking the killer got around quickly that day.

 

[photographer4]

If the killer was seen leaving the Monon High Bridge trail muddy and bloody walking along 300 North how were they not seen on the Hoosier Harveststore video surveillance walking down 300 N?

Maybe they emerged from the scene just past the store and out of the view of that camera? Just a thought.

 

[CGBSpender]

Incredibly frustrating to watch the Jerry Holeman interview again, knowing what we know now. Everything they needed was already in their possession at that point, they were just too incompetent to put the pieces together.

"Somebody knows what happened. For whatever reason they won't come forward. We wish they would, obviously, because this person's probably gonna do this again, and I'd hate for this to happen to you or your loved ones."

I forget the poster, but someone said something like the authorities turned a run of the mill murder investigation into a multi year perplexing mystery, and I completely agree.

And I'm yet hear even the faintest whiff of contrition from any of them.

I'm withholding judgment until I know more. (Forgetting about any post arrest admissions that may have been made for the moment.) Hypothetically, even a mediocre defense attorney is capable of poking holes all day long in the alleged evidence put forth in the PCA...IMO you take just what is in that document, and it's a hung jury at best, and a NG at worst.

I have a hard time believing someone on the trails that day was totally off the radar...I think there is probably something that surfaced that brought him to the top of LE's short list. I have a hard time thinking LE happened to find the CO's notes and then started looking harder at him...I think there is something else they are holding back maybe that switched the focus to him...perhaps some time ago. I think it is possible LE went looking for a hail Mary in the CO's notes in order to help cobble together an articulable probable cause argument to get a warrant...without having to pull out whatever ace is hidden up their sleeve.

A murder took place where I attended college, and after many years that case still hasn't been closed out. LE has stated for years that they know who did it, but they don't have enough to charge the individual and take it to trial. I just don't think you take a murder case like this to trial today without more...DNA matches, fiber matches, hair matches, fingerprints, cell phone tracking information, the victim's clothing in the person's possession, photo/videos the person should not have of the crime, footprint matches, murder weapon connection, etc. Juries expect more...and I expect so do the insurance companies providing coverage to State and Local governments for wrongful conviction liability.

JMO

 

[Yemelyan]

Your Holeman quote continues with: "That's the message that I want to get out to the public, that if you do know, for sure you need to let us know so we can possibly stop this from happening again to your daughter, or your mother, or sister, or anybody. Could be brother or father as well, so..."

The part I made red was the reason I thought the murder was not sexually motivated. People were split on how Holeman meant that. I took it in the context of the rest of that sentence.

It's funny how we can all read or hear the same words and get different meaning out of it. I took Holeman's words as tacit confirmation that females were targeted (hinting at sexual motivation) but then he immediately realized he said too much and added in the caveat that anybody can be a victim. In this particular case, I believe LE was determined not to reveal what he did at that crime scene - not only to protect the integrity of the investigation but also because they were not going to give him the satisfaction of knowing that any detail of what he did to them was public knowledge. Having that info out there is another way of terrorizing the community and victimizing the families all over again. JMO..

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Somewhere in the beginning of the case there was audio of the search. There is one searcher stating that girl's clothing was found under the bridge. I am not sure if says specifically what items they are or if these are the same items stated to have been found floating in the water. There IS a statement that " undergarments" were floating within the creek itself.

IMO:

He didn't disrobe the girls himself. He made them do it themselves. He was not going to go back and scatter their clothing around and risk being seen. He forced them to undress. He knew that they weren't going to run off stark naked in the open. I think that one of them bolted towards RLs property hoping to hide and take cover in the wooded area. The other may have been left behind. He probably used that in order to guilt the other to resurface.

I don't know exactly where he planned to carry out the assault. I have my suspicions about what occurred once he got them together. None of it is good or allowable for me to say.

It's my opinion that the crime was 100 percent sexually motivated.

Why did he take a chance and walk on the hwy?

Again, JMO:

Libby's phone was left under her body because it was ringing.RA probably knew there was a good chance that the iPhone had a" find my phone" feature and it was too risky to touch. He probably told Libby to turn it off. The phone was his queue that someone was in the area and that they were looking for the girls. He had to get back to his car regardless of who might see him. His only other option would be to hang out in the woods, muddy and bloody with no reasonable explanation.


JMO

I agree with your opinion that he had them disrobe early on for dual purposes. I also believe this was part of his initial plan. The length of time he spent with them in an uncontrollable environment makes me think this was a not his first crime of this nature.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

I don't get it. If he went through all of that, why didn't he take a minute to clean himself up a bit...wipe the blood from his face or turn his coat inside-out? Maybe he was in such a frenzy that he didn't even think about being covered in blood?

From the crime scene, he could see the bridge and knew he was somewhat out of sight. Did something spook him so bad that he was frantic to leave the scene?

I can't imagine someone planning on killing someone in a particular area, then parking a mile away.

BBM for focus

He could’ve been in shock.

m[][] ymmv jmvho

 

[Falling Down]

We have someone saying there was a couple 'down under' and that woman taking pictures on the bridge...anyone else said to be around that end of the bridge during that timeframe?

I think BG and the girls could have been under the bridge while C was taking pictures.

The couple under the bridge deal doesn't line up with the PCA, unless it was C and her friend. They were there after the abduction.

 

[Falling Down]

I don't get it. If he went through all of that, why didn't he take a minute to clean himself up a bit...wipe the blood from his face or turn his coat inside-out? Maybe he was in such a frenzy that he didn't even think about being covered in blood?

From the crime scene, he could see the bridge and knew he was somewhat out of sight. Did something spook him so bad that he was frantic to leave the scene?

I can't imagine someone planning on killing someone in a particular area, then parking a mile away.

Judging by the timeline I'd say he was well aware of the fact others were in the area during the time in question. Also I think we need to consider MHB is partly visible from mere feet from where the bodies were found, line-of-sight the body dump spot can't be seen from the bridge. Which may be another reason he moved the bodies.

The berm on the east side of what was a gravel quarry many years ago helps obscure the area from vantage points west of the CS.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

I think they have more video of him too. I remember that Q and A and I took Leazenby’s non-answer answer as an admission they had more video from outside sources.
A lot depends on the route he drove to and from the trails. Delphi is a small town but if he drove from his house to the trails or vice versa and went through town, there are plenty of places he would pass that probably have security cameras. Banks, government buildings, schools etc.

The PCA has his vehicle going west on 300 before the murders.

I drove the clockwise, so to speak, route around that area in 2017. I believe he went counter-clockwise, the same route I drove except the other way. 200 to 425 to 300, in order to avoid cameras. There's a small church on 200, a small machine shop, some houses sporadically set back from the road, and farmland. 425 has a few houses, maybe, and some farmland, between 200 and 300. Turn left, RL's property, farmland, and the M family properties.

I've wondered why RA didn't drive IN 25, but this was probably the route he drove to MHB, before the highway opened.


JMO

 

[TL4S]

The PCA has his vehicle going west on 300 before the murders.

I drove the clockwise, so to speak, route around that area in 2017. I believe he went counter-clockwise, the same route I drove except the other way. 200 to 425 to 300, in order to avoid cameras. There's a small church on 200, a small machine shop, some houses sporadically set back from the road, and farmland. 425 has a few houses, maybe, and some farmland, between 200 and 300. Turn left, RL's property, farmland, and the M family properties.

I've wondered why RA didn't drive IN 25, but this was probably the route he drove to MHB, before the highway opened.


JMO

And he seemingly didn't drive this same route home because the PCA didn't mention footage of his car leaving, going east past HH cameras. That's always seemed odd to me since you'd think he would go the quickest rural route home, seeing as how he was muddy and bloody. Of course, there is a lot we don't know, too, like where he went after the murders, which route, etc.

If the murders were planned, I've sometimes wondered if maybe before the murders that afternoon, he actually did drive up the private road that goes under the south end of the bridge. It's right off of 200 and very close to his house. Maybe there was a reason he decided not to park on that road, so since he was already on 200, he ended up driving around the way you mention, 200 to 425 to 300 to park at the CPS lot. Just a thought.