IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #174

[girlhasnoname]

yes.
Still, your comments are relevant as (again IIRC) the BG photo was published to public the same day as that request for trail-goers to contact police - Feb 15. JMHO.

The BG photo was released to the public on Feb 19th IIRC.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

“I wish we could tell people and literally the world what we know and one day we will be able to, but today is not that day,”

- Doug Carter

I wonder if we'll find out all that they knew and know?

I find that statement by Carter especially cringe worthy. If the prosecution is correct, at the moment he made that statement, they didn't know diddly.

 

[GRT]

I'm not a strong supporter of the death penalty. I've always wrestled with the idea, can't seem to clearly define what circumstances I'm ok with it.

Alan Matheny was put to death for murdering Lisa Bianco and I was good with that. When death row inmate William Gibson goes to meet his maker, I'll be good with that, too. Maybe that's because there's no remorse.

We have cases where people do horrid things to small children before they murder them but they don't get DP.
I'm always glad I don't have to make DP decisions.

I feel the same way to some extent. I used to be okay with the DP, but given that it rarely gets carried out before 2 or 3 decades, I don't think it's any sort of deterrent.

Even more, I've gotten to the point where I'm not really comfortable giving the government power over life and death.

But that's just me and MOO.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

How the heck do we have a tip not signed or dated by anyone! In such an important investigation! Do we even know who Dulin turned his tip narrative into, or when? Why has he been unable to locate the recording? What did he record it on?!

Very suspect, imo. Those details are as important as chain of custody in forensics.

 

[mrjitty]

I really think RA got his “tip” in before the case turned into a murder investigation. Below is link from the night the girls were missing with a phone number to contact. We see the Department of Natural Resources were involved In the search. This makes the most sense to me around the way RAs tip was dealt with by DD. Meeting at an unofficial location, made a note wondering who the girls on the trail are, and didn’t care too much about RA himself. I just don’t think it would have happened like this if it were a murder investigation. I also wonder if this is why the tip was misplaced, it was before the official hotline, and before the system for taking tips was up and running.
MISSING: Two 13-year-old Carroll Co. girls

“Local police, deputies, firefighters and the Department of Natural Resources are canvassing the area the girls were last seen.”

it could be quite simply that the error on the tip meant it was never matched to a person / got misfiled. Then it's in digital purgatory never to be seen again. Potentially only a line by line review of the source documents discovered this error. Or maybe a brute force technique for near matches.

Who knows - but at the end of the day I certainly would not be surprised if it is all down to a simply clerical mistake like this.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

The strange part to me is that after crossing the creek I would expect that Richard Allen would be wet and muddy with trying to get up the bank on the other side of the creek. This would help make him stand out more to witnesses.

But what is really strange is that after the crime he went to walk along 300 N back to his car, then once approaching the Hoosier Harvest Store surveillance camera, crossed back into the woods to walk along the trail while at the same time possibly leap frogging Liberty German's father and the flannel shirt guy that had arrived and were walking towards the Monon High Bridge. I do not understand why Richard Allen would go back into the woods to the trail to avoid the surveillance camera anyway unless he thought the camera could pick up his profile image and determine he was muddy and wet?

The theory then is that Richard Allen was trying to avoid being caught by the surveillance camera at the Hoosier Harvest Store. Yet did he really talk to the conservation officer before the images of bridge guy came out from Liberty German's phone? Or was it after? Did he know Liberty German had recorded him with her phone anyway?

If it was after then maybe he was trying to cover himself once he knew there was a picture of him and provide a story. If the answer is before, then like so many things in the Delphi case, that makes no sense. Are there any human witnesses who can state they saw Richard Allen after the crime muddy and wet walking back towards where his car was parked(other than a woman driving by who he could not have been sure would report it)?

<modsnip: no source link>
Maybe it is possible he wanted to commit a crime like this and saw the opportunity there that day?

But based on the evidence released so far(to the public) it does not seem like there is much evidence against him to suggest he is the Delphi killer. Yet he confessed to the crime multiple times after being arrested so it looks like police arrested the right man. It doesn't make any sense.

I agree with you. It doesn't make any sense.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I really think RA got his “tip” in before the case turned into a murder investigation. Below is link from the night the girls were missing with a phone number to contact. We see the Department of Natural Resources were involved In the search. This makes the most sense to me around the way RAs tip was dealt with by DD. Meeting at an unofficial location, made a note wondering who the girls on the trail are, and didn’t care too much about RA himself. I just don’t think it would have happened like this if it were a murder investigation. I also wonder if this is why the tip was misplaced, it was before the official hotline, and before the system for taking tips was up and running.
MISSING: Two 13-year-old Carroll Co. girls

“Local police, deputies, firefighters and the Department of Natural Resources are canvassing the area the girls were last seen.”

100% Agree

 

[zh0r4]

Why would we be? That would be part of the State's case which is unknown to us until trial.

A lot of these questions are people asking things that won't be discussed by gag order, and well, the State just doesn't go on TV, SM, or write a Memorandum stating the theory of the crime and their evidence before a trial generally speaking.

jmo

I thought it might be cited in the PCA. Or even SWA. I.e. “witness 1 identified RA from a line-up.” JMO

 

[zh0r4]

Yes, as an Operations/Office Manager 5 years prior, also MW is not a licensed attorney.

Correct he isn’t an attorney. He worked as an operations manager & legal assistant.

 

[TL4S]

If RA didn’t catch up to the victims on the bridge - is it possible someone did ambush them at the end of the bridge then? That’s a long distance - would someone sitting at the bench at the trail head be able to witness that? Or someone at the first platform? Just curious. RA having been there doesn’t make him a killer.

One witness thinks she saw the victims walk toward the bridge where RA was. How confident is she that she saw RA and not some other man? I can’t remember - did he see her as well? Did he see the victims approach the bridge?

Know what would be great? If LG happened to get. Photo or video of the man at the start of the bridge! A clear shot would be brilliant! That would be a good reason for RA to have eaten his disclosure papers in my view. That would be pretty damning.

We have a clip of a longer video that was was not released where BG said down the hill. I’m hoping LG gift wrapped her killer for police!!

They must have more than we know to have picked up RA for this. Wouldn’t surprise me if the girls got him in a photo or clip at the trail start. Or as they walked along and we don’t know it yet.

The FM said the phone was found under Abby’s body. Thinking on where and how the kids were found - the killer wanted them found. By whom or what? We don’t know. But the phone under a body makes me think the killer may have used the phone to take photos or video or to record a message to LE. Could it have fallen out of the pocket of the jacket or sweater she was dressed in? Not if it landed under her back - I just don’t think that was a random coincidence that the cell was found. There will be more to that I suspect.

Long ago, JH said something about there being more video of the girls talking about stuff girls talk about. My impression was that it was from earlier on the trail, before they got onto the bridge, so I have always wondered if there is digital evidence of some kind from the north side of the bridge. Unfortunately, I don't think whatever that was (if it exists), was identifying to the killer, because if it was a clear image or something like that, then I would guess LE might have released it to help with tips. However, maybe that evidence helps place him either on the north side trail, or walking on the bridge itself, going north or south, etc. Or maybe there was an encounter. Or they made a comment about a guy in the woods. Whatever. Just guessing...

As for the phone, if we are to believe that RA is the killer, and that there really was no digital evidence linking him to the girls, then we have to believe that RA became an opportunistic killer that afternoon, out of the blue at 45 years old, already armed, who got so caught up in the crime that there was unclothing, possible reclothing, killing, moving, staging, covering with sticks, leaving signatures, etc. I personally think L's clothing was on the ground and A ended up on top of the shoe and phone by happenstance, and the killer simply didn't see them or wish to retrieve them from under her body when he gathered the other clothing and tossed them in the creek. It doesn't seem a teenager's cell phone would be of any significance to him in his mindset, especially if he had no idea he had been filmed. JMO.

ETA: Now, if LE is dealing with the type of person who, as part of their fantasy, did take photos with L's phone, or made the girls take photos of each other, then that would be a definite signature and add to the enigma that is RA. In RL's affidavit, the FBI agent did suggest that this kind of killer would take photos to memorialize, and that was their cause to collect digital evidence. Would photos on L's phone be included in that PCA? IDK. Maybe wouldn't have to be. I would still be shocked if this took place, though. JMO.

 

[TL4S]

Long ago, JH said something about there being more video of the girls talking about stuff girls talk about. My impression was that it was from earlier on the trail, before they got onto the bridge, so I have always wondered if there is digital evidence of some kind from the north side of the bridge. Unfortunately, I don't think whatever that was (if it exists), was identifying to the killer, because if it was a clear image or something like that, then I would guess LE might have released it to help with tips. However, maybe that evidence helps place him either on the north side trail, or walking on the bridge itself, going north or south, etc. Or maybe there was an encounter. Or they made a comment about a guy in the woods. Whatever. Just guessing...

As for the phone, if we are to believe that RA is the killer, and that there really was no digital evidence linking him to the girls, then we have to believe that RA became an opportunistic killer that afternoon, out of the blue at 45 years old, already armed, who got so caught up in the crime that there was unclothing, possible reclothing, killing, moving, staging, covering with sticks, leaving signatures, etc. I personally think L's clothing was on the ground and A ended up on top of the shoe and phone by happenstance, and the killer simply didn't see them or wish to retrieve them from under her body when he gathered the other clothing and tossed them in the creek. It doesn't seem a teenager's cell phone would be of any significance to him in his mindset, especially if he had no idea he had been filmed. JMO.

ETA: Now, if LE is dealing with the type of person who, as part of their fantasy, did take photos with L's phone, or made the girls take photos of each other, then that would be a definite signature and add to the enigma that is RA. In RL's affidavit, the FBI agent did suggest that this kind of killer would take photos to memorialize, and that was their cause to collect digital evidence. Would photos on L's phone be included in that PCA? IDK. Maybe wouldn't have to be. I would still be shocked if this took place, though. JMO.

Replying to myself. The weirder, odder, more deviant the CS is described (or speculated), the more curious I become on how RA kept it together for 45 years without getting caught on any similar behavior. JMO.

 

[TL4S]

Here's a question that nags at my brain. Why did the killer toss the clothing into the creek? He didn't even do a good job at it because most of it was found just down the bank from the CS.

Did he toss them there, or did one of the girls? Did it happen before or after the murders? Why not leave them with the bodies? If he was trying to hide the body location, why toss a brightly colored t-shirt into the water, at a bend in the creek, and which flowed directly toward the bridge?

I know it's been suggested that it was to destroy DNA or something, but really? In everything he did he was only worried that he'd touched those couple pieces of clothing? IDK...I feel like this was part of the event, at some point, and it had meaning. JMO.

 

[FromGermany1]

Maybe, if we would put pieces of OUR puzzle together, it would make a complete puzzle with the parts of the officially known puzzle.
It is mentioned, that "Odinists" may have been involved at the crime scene.
A man was seen by a witness, who seemed to look as having been in a fight: muddied, bloodied and so on.

WE (part of us members) saw several men in Libby's pic of the bridge. They seemed to stand by trees, laying on the ground, hiding behind trees, (all that to the right in the pic), standing near a car (left in the pic). It was dismissed as hallucinations or over-interpretation of a scene/photo. What, if our interpretation of Libby's pic was just the truth? A large group of men staying there for some "event" to happen, right after the man on the bridge (BG) would have been successful to chase the 2 victims A&L along the bridge and down the hill. Maybe, two or more of them got into a fight sometime and one of them left the scene without fear to be seen by witnesses (because he didn't murder)?

If you didn't recognize the men on the pic or the car or whatever, you don't need to discuss it with me: everybody of us had/has his own view and I'm not convinced, I saw it more right than everyone else. BUT now I'm thinking about the whole time, when the murders occurred, and I'm searching for certain connections between all the incidents or observations.

 

[sunshineray]

No one else has confessed to the Delphi murders either. No one else has been arrested for the Delphi murders. But would someone like the killer in this case care if an innocent man was convicted for his crimes? Eyewitness testimony can sometimes be fraught with errors too. There are many people that look like bridge guy. Even a news interview with the property owner, Ron Logan, has him wearing a blue jacket with a hat. I do not think Ron Logan has anything to do with the Delphi murders.

It can be sort of dangerous to think this way given that when police make an arrest in a case like this, the presumption can be that the accused is guilty. But I admit Richard Allen confessing to the crimes does not help the defense claim that he is innocent. The evidence released to the public in the PCA seems thin. What if LE arrested the wrong man?

Don't forget LE does not have to put in everything they have, only enough to get a judge to sign a warrant. Measuring what's included in a PCA against guilt or innocence can be an erroneous scale either way. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

Here's a question that nags at my brain. Why did the killer toss the clothing into the creek? He didn't even do a good job at it because most of it was found just down the bank from the CS.

Did he toss them there, or did one of the girls? Did it happen before or after the murders? Why not leave them with the bodies? If he was trying to hide the body location, why toss a brightly colored t-shirt into the water, at a bend in the creek, and which flowed directly toward the bridge?

I know it's been suggested that it was to destroy DNA or something, but really? In everything he did he was only worried that he'd touched those couple pieces of clothing? IDK...I feel like this was part of the event, at some point, and it had meaning. JMO.

How to say this...maybe he used the discarded shirt, sock for a purpose that would then have left his DNA on it?

 

[photographer4]

Here is the official Motion regarding discovery safekeeping: BBM

Comes now the Court, the Sate of Indiana ,by NicholasC.MeLeland, Prosecuting Atorney, having filed its’ Motion Requesting Protective Order Governing Discovery, and the Court being duly advised in the premises, now grants sid Motion and the State, the Defendant and Counsel for the Defendant, are now instructed and ORDERED as follows:

1. That one copy of the discovery material shall be provided to Counsel for the Defendant.

1. That no additional copies of the discovery material shall be made by the Defendant, Defendant's Counsel, investigator, expert or any other representative or agent of the Defendant for any reason.
2. That the discovery material shall not be used for any purpose other than to prepare for the defense in the above referenced cause number.
3. That the discovery material shall not be publicly exhibited, displayed, shown, used for educational research or demonstrative purposes or used in any other manner, except in judicial proceedings in the above referenced action.

5. That the discovery material may be viewed only by parties, counsel and counsel's investigators and experts.
6. That if copies of the discovery material are made and provided to the Defendant, investigators or experts for the Defense, that sensitive and private information contained in the discovery shall be redacted, including any social security numbers, IDAC information or NCIC information ,any information related to the personal information of juveniles, including social security numbers, names and date of birth and any FBI sentinel information.
View attachment 478462

Then maybe MW was an investigator as he isn’t charged with breech. Only with theft. How odd.

 

[photographer4]

How to say this...maybe he used the discarded shirt, sock for a purpose that would then have left his DNA on it?

Perhaps he didn’t? Maybe one of the girls did? Or an animal did?

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I really think RA got his “tip” in before the case turned into a murder investigation. Below is link from the night the girls were missing with a phone number to contact. We see the Department of Natural Resources were involved In the search. This makes the most sense to me around the way RAs tip was dealt with by DD. Meeting at an unofficial location, made a note wondering who the girls on the trail are, and didn’t care too much about RA himself. I just don’t think it would have happened like this if it were a murder investigation. I also wonder if this is why the tip was misplaced, it was before the official hotline, and before the system for taking tips was up and running.
MISSING: Two 13-year-old Carroll Co. girls

“Local police, deputies, firefighters and the Department of Natural Resources are canvassing the area the girls were last seen.”

I wholeheartedly agree. I think the tip was made causally outside a grocery store prior to the girls being found.
Also I do believe RA gave the timeline of 1:30-3:30. It would make no sense for the CO to ask a
limited time questions because he would want to know of the girls had been seen anytime after their drop off.

 

[photographer4]

Long ago, JH said something about there being more video of the girls talking about stuff girls talk about. My impression was that it was from earlier on the trail, before they got onto the bridge, so I have always wondered if there is digital evidence of some kind from the north side of the bridge. Unfortunately, I don't think whatever that was (if it exists), was identifying to the killer, because if it was a clear image or something like that, then I would guess LE might have released it to help with tips. However, maybe that evidence helps place him either on the north side trail, or walking on the bridge itself, going north or south, etc. Or maybe there was an encounter. Or they made a comment about a guy in the woods. Whatever. Just guessing...

As for the phone, if we are to believe that RA is the killer, and that there really was no digital evidence linking him to the girls, then we have to believe that RA became an opportunistic killer that afternoon, out of the blue at 45 years old, already armed, who got so caught up in the crime that there was unclothing, possible reclothing, killing, moving, staging, covering with sticks, leaving signatures, etc. I personally think L's clothing was on the ground and A ended up on top of the shoe and phone by happenstance, and the killer simply didn't see them or wish to retrieve them from under her body when he gathered the other clothing and tossed them in the creek. It doesn't seem a teenager's cell phone would be of any significance to him in his mindset, especially if he had no idea he had been filmed. JMO.

ETA: Now, if LE is dealing with the type of person who, as part of their fantasy, did take photos with L's phone, or made the girls take photos of each other, then that would be a definite signature and add to the enigma that is RA. In RL's affidavit, the FBI agent did suggest that this kind of killer would take photos to memorialize, and that was their cause to collect digital evidence. Would photos on L's phone be included in that PCA? IDK. Maybe wouldn't have to be. I would still be shocked if this took place, though. JMO.

I was thinking about this. They don’t have a clear shot of RA from the crime because why then did they go after RL?

 

[Ravenmoon]

How to say this...maybe he used the discarded shirt, sock for a purpose that would then have left his DNA on it?

I'm actually glad that you put this out there. I wasn't sure how to actually say it, but...... underwear and a sock missing from the crime scene adds up to a pretty likely conclusion
And it's nasty to say the least.


JMO