IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #174

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TL is a smart cookie and has followed this closely for years. I couldn't agree more. :)
You are very kind, smart, and tolerant, @girlhasnoname, so I hope you didn't think my post was directed at you (just came out in reply to yours). It's more of an overall pattern I've noticed over the years, on lots of cases. It's born out of frustration, I think, because we don't get to know all the facts. These horrors happen, and we just want someone to answer for it, and to understand why. I don't fault anyone for feeling what they feel. Personally, I think I'm too idealistic when it comes to LE and the courts (all sides) doing things right. That's my expectation from them, I guess.

In the end, I think every one of us here will be right on some points, wrong on some points, and likely surprised by others. And it all started with some piece(s) of crap deciding he had the right to end two young lives. It all falls on his shoulders. :(
 
Because they did not find EF's DNA on the bodies of Abby or Libby. If so, he would have been arrested and charged in connection. LE/ISP/FBI could not cover up something like that, that makes no common sense.

MOO
I don’t think they covered up. But it is possible someone washed spit or other bodily fluids off of one or both kids post mortem. I recall reading the EF declined a polygraph via his lawyer and that’s his right. But he did give an interview to LE (was a lawyer there for him?). Did they request and obtain DNA from him during the course of their investigation? All I am asking I guess, is if they didn’t, why didn’t they? Was it he didn’t agree to provide? Couldn’t get a warrant because no spit found on the bodies?

Did police search his home? Car? Devices? If not, why not? How exactly did they determine that it either wasn’t him / he wasn’t there? Did they just not have enough to charge?

Transparency would be nice but all they do is lock down and secrets. Then they wonder why the case is such a bloody mess.
 
I don’t think they covered up. But it is possible someone washed spit or other bodily fluids off of one or both kids post mortem. I recall reading the EF declined a polygraph via his lawyer and that’s his right. But he did give an interview to LE (was a lawyer there for him?). Did they request and obtain DNA from him during the course of their investigation? All I am asking I guess, is if they didn’t, why didn’t they? Was it he didn’t agree to provide? Couldn’t get a warrant because no spit found on the bodies?

Did police search his home? Car? Devices? If not, why not? How exactly did they determine that it either wasn’t him / he wasn’t there? Did they just not have enough to charge?

Transparency would be nice but all they do is lock down and secrets. Then they wonder why the case is such a bloody mess.
I'm still curious about the DNA. It's really never been stated with any clarity that they have the killer's DNA, or if it's usable, etc. Over the years, we've heard they have taken DNA samples (PE, KAK, TK, EF, RA, and others), but there wasn't anything with DNA in the arrest affidavit, and the FM claims that JH and TL both stated in their depositions that there was no DNA from RA at the CS, FWIW.

So, if it really is the case that they aren't able to include RA as a suspect based on DNA, then can they exclude EF (or anyone eles) based on DNA? That's what I would be interested to know more about.
 
You are very kind, smart, and tolerant, @girlhasnoname, so I hope you didn't think my post was directed at you (just came out in reply to yours). It's more of an overall pattern I've noticed over the years, on lots of cases. It's born out of frustration, I think, because we don't get to know all the facts. These horrors happen, and we just want someone to answer for it, and to understand why. I don't fault anyone for feeling what they feel. Personally, I think I'm too idealistic when it comes to LE and the courts (all sides) doing things right. That's my expectation from them, I guess.

In the end, I think every one of us here will be right on some points, wrong on some points, and likely surprised by others. And it all started with some piece(s) of crap deciding he had the right to end two young lives. It all falls on his shoulders. :(
Your previous post is specifically why I chose the "mob rules" tagline long ago. It most certainly is a predictable overall pattern. Which is frustrating because we all share the same objective.
 
I'm still curious about the DNA. It's really never been stated with any clarity that they have the killer's DNA, or if it's usable, etc. Over the years, we've heard they have taken DNA samples (PE, KAK, TK, EF, RA, and others), but there wasn't anything with DNA in the arrest affidavit, and the FM claims that JH and TL both stated in their depositions that there was no DNA from RA at the CS, FWIW.

So, if it really is the case that they aren't able to include RA as a suspect based on DNA, then can they exclude EF (or anyone eles) based on DNA? That's what I would be interested to know more about.
Agree, TL has said to BMcD on DTH that there was "some" DNA evidence found at the scene. He did not tell whose or what type it was, but if EF spit on Libby as he stated, there would have been EF's DNA to test against.

Maybe RA did not leave any usable DNA at the scene? Hard to imagine with knife wounds (we know killers using knives tend to cut themselves during the process often leaving their own blood as well, but BK in Idaho didn't), unless there was another person there too that did the stabbing? IDK

But since EF supposedly admitted to killing the girls, LE would have definitely tested his DNA against any found at the scene. Not only that, but someone specifically admitting to the murders, and where they left DNA, would have had LE/ISP/FBI climbing all over their whereabouts and alibi for that day and time with a fine tooth comb. I suspect they did just that for EF and cleared him.

JMO
 
I agree, and unfortunately, in over a year and three months, we've seen what...one hearing? How the judge makes her findings might make more sense if there were hearings, detailed decisions, etc.

I've always been of the mindset that "corruption" and "ineptness" are words used way too often in every case. Not that these things don't exist, because in reality they do, but I think more often than not, it just looks that way to the public when they don't know all the details and become impatient.

In Delphi, where the 6 year investigation has been so guarded, and the circumstances with the first judge recusing, RA being held in the facilities he has been in, JG's poorly managed docket, the defense hitting back with what sounds like "hocus pocus" and carelessness with sharing discovery, and NMcL making his own errors that could be because he's never tried a murder case before, it does have the appearance that things are not all right on any level. But I just don't personally believe it's corruption or ineptness, because it's too widespread. Nor do I think it's a conspiracy. I do think there is a lot we don't know, and the way things have been handled, at each point along the way, has resulted in a lot of animosity, unfortunately. I just hope professionalism will start to override this animosity very soon. Jmo.

I think you definitely hit on something here that I’ve also thought about.
JG’s error in this case, in my opinion, is not that she is biased, but that she was not monitoring the case sufficiently. She took weeks, sometimes months to respond to motions and schedule hearings.
Whether this was because of her court schedule I don’t know, but this vacuum was eventually filled by attention grabbing motions by the defense that were high on drama, and light on facts. Because JG was plodding through the motions, the public had plenty of time to gnash their teeth about the soul sucking manipulations laid out by the defense. Then there’s a hearing, and the fraud is exposed. I’ll add, just because a judge rules against you doesn’t mean she is biased. That’s her job.
Then we repeat it multiple times.
It is unfortunate the judge wasn’t constantly on top of this case. It would have moved quicker and more efficiently. But she didn’t. Like a parent that tells their teenage children, “I have some errands to run. I’ll be back in 3 hours. Behave yourselves”, and returns to find the house trashed, she expected all parties to behave, until she got to things. The defense apparently didn’t have the maturity to behave.
I’ll add that there is no conspiracy here for anything…pro-prosecution or pro-defense.
There was an incompetent investigation, not a conspiracy.
The prosecution says murky things that no one can quite figure out, especially early on. The prosecutor is new to murder cases, but at least he knows what a gag order means. They believe RA is guilty and are working toward proving that. Not a conspiracy.
The defense team has a vivid imagination and a flair for the dramatic. They are not above lying to court officials and pouting when they don’t get their way. Don’t think court orders apply to them. They believe RA is innocent and are working toward that. There is no conspiracy.
Odinists reside in Indiana. A group of grown men who find more enjoyment skulking around pretending they’re Vikings than spending time in the real world with their own families. To each their own. More sad than scary. Not a conspiracy.
Everybody, including all of us, share some responsibility for this mess, and the fact is, no matter which side of this we attach ourselves to, we are right. We will be right up until the day the trial starts and we finally have evidence, and witnesses that are sworn in and cross examined.
 
RE: DNA

My opinion:

The DNA at the crime scene is a mixture of the 2 victims and the Perp. The sheer volume of blood loss from the victims has made the perps DNA harder to single out specifically.

The following is from an article about how this can occur:

DNA Mixtures: A Forensic Science Explainer

So, I believe that the DNA at the scene is partial, probably a decent sample with enough to narrow down a match to exclude a huge part of the population. I lean towards that profile excluding people like Ron L, EF , BH, ETC.

I believe it doesn't exclude RA.


JMO
 
I didn't gather that from the SCOIN arguments, but I could have missed it. Can you point me to something in MSM that relates to that? Thanks.
Here is the Indiana Lawyer's article on the case

Here is where SCOIN emphasizes the need for JG to follow the rules and explains the legal process in their order denying RA's first Writ of Mandamus. Emphasis mine.
The SCOIN shows that JG excluding documents from public access was not in accordance with court rules and state all courts must follow this process.

"Along with reinstating these excluded documents to the CCS, the November 14 order reflects the court’s intention to comply with the A.C.R. Rules going forward. If there are any remaining concerns about access to court records here, interested parties should first seek relief in the trial court and then pursue an appeal if necessary.

We now take this opportunity to clarify the requirements in our A.C.R. Rules, which recognize the “strong societal reasons for allowing public access to court records.” Ind. Access to Court Records Rule 1, Commentary. The A.C.R. Rules presume the public will have open access to court records with limited exceptions. Those exceptions are found in Rule 5, which identifies two types of records that are excluded from public access. First, Rule 5(A) sets out several categories of entire cases excluded from public access, including when either statute or court rule requires the records to be treated as confidential. For these records, exclusion from public access is automatic, and no other notice is required. Second, Rule 5(B) sets out thirteen types of individual case records excluded from public access. For records falling under this rule, documents must be filed as confidential and include an “ACR Form” identifying the specific basis for exclusion.

Here are the individual case records that can be excluded in Rule 5(B), none of which can be argued apply to the FM.
Screenshot 2024-02-04 at 10.33.00 AM.pngScreenshot 2024-02-04 at 10.33.12 AM.pngScreenshot 2024-02-04 at 10.33.20 AM.pngScreenshot 2024-02-04 at 10.33.28 AM.png

Aside from these two exceptions, Rule 6 permits a trial court to exclude otherwise public court records from public access only in extraordinary circumstances and by following the rule’s process. That process requires any person affected by the release of the court record to make a written request to prohibit public access, which must give notice to the parties and allow them twenty days to respond. And before a trial court excludes the requested record, it must hold a public hearing and issue a written order explaining why it is granting the request. A.C.R. Rules 6(C)–(D). We expect all Indiana courts to comply with these rules."
 
Screenshot_20240204-105623.pngKA is listed as a witness for the Prosecution.

Is she protected against testifying against her spouse? Does this imply a willingness to testify?

Any opinions out there?

Anyone with legal expertise have any idea if this means anything?
 
One thought that occurred to me as I continue to read through the memorandum was the reminder that in RL’s affidavit it was mentioned that the crime scene appeared stage to throw off the investigators or to mislead investigators about the nature of the crime. If the symbols used by RA or the killer really do match Odinist or Norse ones I wonder if they were used as tools for staging the crime scene? Perhaps the perp had no real emotional or faith-based ties to Odinism but used the symbols as a means to an end? For example, perhaps the perp or RA attempted to used the symbols to stage or portray his crimes as based on religious or spiritual factors rather than sexually motivated?

IMO in addition to computer searches, it could be insightful if investigators were able to discover or reveal if RA or any of the possible suspects mentioned in the memo perhaps checked out Norse-based or Odinism-based books from the library, bought any from Amazon or on their kindles, happen to buy cards or posters or stamps with these symbols or watched shows like Vikings and such and maybe that is how they were exposed and knew about the symbols rather through engagement or contact with a cult per say.

Just speculation or my own thoughts as o read this memo
 
Hey Everyone,
Please continue the Delphi discussion
HERE
 
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View attachment 480796KA is listed as a witness for the Prosecution.

Is she protected against testifying against her spouse? Does this imply a willingness to testify?

Any opinions out there?

Anyone with legal expertise have any idea if this means anything?
I believe these people are listed as witnesses to this specific document. No idea if that's even the same KA.
 
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