IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #174

[girlhasnoname]

To note, the FM says RA said he was gone by 1-1:30pm, which would mean he was gone by the time the girls were dropped off and would have been gone during the time of the murders. LE couldn’t provide the interview where they allege otherwise from my understanding. This is one of the many reasons they drafted the FM to contest the SWA, as they are claiming RA never stated he was there during the time of the murders.

Additionally, even spent bullets are not a solid piece of evidence. Ballistics is not a solid science. An unspent bullet alone has never convicted anyone in a U.S. court, and there may be a few where a spent bullet was a main piece of evidence, but there were other additional pieces of evidence.

JMO.

Agreed about ballistics, it's a debatable technology although still admissible in IN courtrooms. Both sides will have their own experts to argue the point and then the jury will decide how much weight to give it.

The bigger picture is that the State has a lot more evidence on RA to convict him than the unspent bullet. That's just one piece of evidence against RA=BG=Killer.

IMO

 

[mrjitty]

I'll start at the end of your post: I'm open to being swayed.

The muddy/bloody issue is pretty clear in my mind.
From the RL affidavit, we know this (don't we?):


So, when (IF) he was described by SC as being muddy (and bloody), I'm thinking she meant his clothing was that way also.
I'm pretty sure all LE involved are aware of RL's affidavit. IMO, regardless of Liggett omitting the word "clothing", the judge would have taken it that way. If Liggett personally added in the word 'bloody', that's a problem.

I'd love to read SC's interview.
I'm really curious how a jacket goes from tan/muddy to blue/muddy/bloody.

All MOO

The fight point makes me wonder if she observed he was wounded or cut? To me it's not obvious you'd be able to see blood on clothes unless they were a light colour - but on skin you could see it. But it any event you can get into a world of interpretation which is different to lying.

Gull really should have resolved all this.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Yeah, I have a lot of trouble with it all. I just can't get off the fence before trial.

Unfortunately, anyone who mentions the word 'Odin,' without it applying to why the D team are clowns, automatically becomes RA sympathizers and FM supporters.

I'm like that kid who doesn't like sports or band, so I don't have anyone to hang out with...

I think there are plenty of others in the thread that think RA is innocent. You're just as entitled to your opinions and questions as anyone else.

I have a major problem with the FM because of the way the reinstated Defense team knowingly subverted the system to get it out in the public, and also all the discrepancies in that they cover themselves with by their footnotes.

That and the exploitive way they exposed the CS details of Abby & Libby. No need for that highly salacious information to be shared with the public IMO.

JMO

 

[TL4S]

I'll start at the end of your post: I'm open to being swayed.

The muddy/bloody issue is pretty clear in my mind.
From the RL affidavit, we know this (don't we?):


So, when (IF) he was described by SC as being muddy (and bloody), I'm thinking she meant his clothing was that way also.
I'm pretty sure all LE involved are aware of RL's affidavit. IMO, regardless of Liggett omitting the word "clothing", the judge would have taken it that way. If Liggett personally added in the word 'bloody', that's a problem.

I'd love to read SC's interview.
I'm really curious how a jacket goes from tan/muddy to blue/muddy/bloody.

All MOO

This is really the issue I have with a lot of the "evidence" coming from either side. It might be very compelling to me written as it is, but without seeing it all for myself, I can't put my whole faith in it as it is represented. For instance, one piece of "evidence" in the PCA that I find really significant is RA's vehicle being seen on the HH camera at 1:27, heading west toward the CPS lot. To me, that is coming to the trails, not leaving...important to the timeline. Okay, on its face, that seem strong. But, how good is the footage of that car? How sure are they that it belongs to RA? Being "consistent" isn't much better than RL's build not being "inconsistent" with BG's. How sure are they that car wasn't just passing through? It wasn't seen going back the same way? Why?

What about the three girls? There were actually four girls, not three? And the unspent round? It wasn't in the RL affidavit and LE sources said it could even have come from LE? Is ejection marking a good enough science to convince a jury?

I could just tell myself that these are minor details, and the overall big picture points to RA, but that overall picture is only made up of all these minor details. I believe LE likely has more evidence, but it makes me very uncomfortable the way so much of this case has been handled, from possible omissions on the PCA, to RA being held in conditions that his attorneys can't work with him, to some of JG's actions, to his own attorneys putting so much detail into the FM, to NMcL not getting the charges right...it doesn't seem fair to the victims and their families. JMO.

 

[FromGermany1]

The National Guard. (p. 108, FM, footnote 155)

I stumbled upon this:
Westerman allegedly sent those photos to a Fishers man who was employed at the Fort Wayne U.S. Air Force Base, who went on to share them with a man from Texas.

Fort Wayne Air National Guard Base - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Indiana man is charged over leaking Delphi murder crime scene photos

Mitchell Westerman, 41, has been charged for allegedly leaking gruesome crime scene photos of the Delphi murder case to the public

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[girlhasnoname]

RSBM
Exactly! Seems highly unlikely RA would have the knowledge of Odinism to stage the CS to direct an investigation away from himself and toward the local Odinists. Simple fact is, there is nothing that links RA to the CS. SURELY, if the P had information that RA was in anyway linked to the local Odinists, Rozzi and Baldwin would know to. In fact, it appears (to me at least), the more likely scenario in this case is that certain LE were instrumental in directing this case AWAY from the Odinists.

I just cannot believe one man was able to do all the evil that was done in that space of time. JMO

I believe LE investigated the Odinism angle because of the crime scene staging and then systematically went through it piece by piece. We don't know that RA wasn't aware, even peripherally, of Odinists or even studied the practice enough to try and stage a CS. We don't know anything at all except what the Defense and the FM said and what the PCA and SW stated by the State.

A man with a loaded pistol could most certainly have controlled the girls enough to have accomplished what he did in approx one and a half hours IMO. They would have been terrified and compliant. That's a long time if you quietly sit and reflect on it, from 2:15 "DTH guys" to the time the witness saw him walking muddy & bloody "like he'd been in a fight" at 3:47.

This is not a matter of anyone being right or wrong to me, it's a matter of justice for Abby and Libby and getting a seriously disturbed child killer, who's gotten off Scott free for 6 years, off the streets and justice for these girls and their families.

If RA is not that guy, or the State fails to prove his guilt BARD to a jury of his peers, that's something we'll have to live with.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

This is really the issue I have with a lot of the "evidence" coming from either side. It might be very compelling to me written as it is, but without seeing it all for myself, I can't put my whole faith in it as it is represented. For instance, one piece of "evidence" in the PCA that I find really significant is RA's vehicle being seen on the HH camera at 1:27, heading west toward the CPS lot. To me, that is coming to the trails, not leaving...important to the timeline. Okay, on its face, that seem strong. But, how good is the footage of that car? How sure are they that it belongs to RA? Being "consistent" isn't much better than RL's build not being "inconsistent" with BG's. How sure are they that car wasn't just passing through? It wasn't seen going back the same way? Why?

What about the three girls? There were actually four girls, not three? And the unspent round? It wasn't in the RL affidavit and LE sources said it could even have come from LE? Is ejection marking a good enough science to convince a jury?

I could just tell myself that these are minor details, and the overall big picture points to RA, but that overall picture is only made up of all these minor details. I believe LE likely has more evidence, but it makes me very uncomfortable the way so much of this case has been handled, from possible omissions on the PCA, to RA being held in conditions that his attorneys can't work with him, to some of JG's actions, to his own attorneys putting so much detail into the FM, to NMcL not getting the charges right...it doesn't seem fair to the victims and their families. JMO.

To this I would add the digital evidence (or lack there of), for his story about checking stock tickers.It should confirm approx arrival/departure times.

In recent cases I've followed, digital blackouts have been a key theme. in other words, it is the lack of digital evidence that has been a problem, because 'savvy' defendants don't take their phone with them. But then this 'dark window' shows when the criming was.

This is why I am interested in the '22 story. Did he stick to the story he had his phone with him? Because that might be a super big issue if his phone wasn't in the tower dump.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Anyone who would try to frame the Odinists would have to be insane, no? That seems like a good way to invite a lot of trouble into your life, whether from the legal system, or the Odinists themselves, no?

I would add that if a person murdered 2 young girls in the fashion as Abby & Libby, they are already insane to a degree, and probably aren't worried or thinking about future trouble.

JMO

 

[zh0r4]

I stumbled upon this:
Westerman allegedly sent those photos to a Fishers man who was employed at the Fort Wayne U.S. Air Force Base, who went on to share them with a man from Texas.

Fort Wayne Air National Guard Base - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Indiana man is charged over leaking Delphi murder crime scene photos

Mitchell Westerman, 41, has been charged for allegedly leaking gruesome crime scene photos of the Delphi murder case to the public

www.dailymail.co.uk

Thank you for posting this, I wanted to mention MW’s military background but didn’t have an approved source on hand.

 

[TL4S]

I think there are plenty of others in the thread that think RA is innocent. You're just as entitled to your opinions and questions as anyone else.

I have a major problem with the FM because of the way the reinstated Defense team knowingly subverted the system to get it out in the public, and also all the discrepancies in that they cover themselves with by their footnotes.

That and the exploitive way they exposed the CS details of Abby & Libby. No need for that highly salacious information to be shared with the public IMO.

JMO

I don't claim to think RA is innocent. It's just not black or white to me. At this point, I assume LE had good reason to arrest him. But I've seen enough to want things done correctly, and am willing to hear out both sides at trial before I convict RA.

 

[sunshineray]

I'll start at the end of your post: I'm open to being swayed.

The muddy/bloody issue is pretty clear in my mind.
From the RL affidavit, we know this (don't we?):


So, when (IF) he was described by SC as being muddy (and bloody), I'm thinking she meant his clothing was that way also.
I'm pretty sure all LE involved are aware of RL's affidavit. IMO, regardless of Liggett omitting the word "clothing", the judge would have taken it that way. If Liggett personally added in the word 'bloody', that's a problem.

I'd love to read SC's interview.
I'm really curious how a jacket goes from tan/muddy to blue/muddy/bloody.

All MOO

I'd love to read that interview too. I wonder if the witness in saying he looked like he was in a fight might have garnered a question of, in what way or why? Her response may have the answer to the muddy/bloody. An example: maybe she described the color of the mud looking reddish and was asked, like blood? and she answered yes. Now the description becomes muddy/bloody. It's not a lie but it is suggestive and not really her exact words. Maybe that's what the D was stating but not stating in the FM. Idk, just a thought.

 

[FromGermany1]

I don't claim to think RA is innocent. It's just not black or white to me. At this point, I assume LE had good reason to arrest him. But I've seen enough to want things done correctly, and am willing to hear out both sides at trial before I convict RA.

I was living happily with my one poi, until LE came around the corner with RA and brought my house of cards tumbling down. Since then I have to arrange myself with new and different facts, and I'm having a hard time with it. NOW I have doubts - 5 years I had not one.

 

[sunshineray]

I believe LE investigated the Odinism angle because of the crime scene staging and then systematically went through it piece by piece. We don't know that RA wasn't aware, even peripherally, of Odinists or even studied the practice enough to try and stage a CS. We don't know anything at all except what the Defense and the FM said and what the PCA and SW stated by the State.

A man with a loaded pistol could most certainly have controlled the girls enough to have accomplished what he did in approx one and a half hours IMO. They would have been terrified and compliant. That's a long time if you quietly sit and reflect on it, from 2:15 "DTH guys" to the time the witness saw him walking muddy & bloody "like he'd been in a fight" at 3:47.

This is not a matter of anyone being right or wrong to me, it's a matter of justice for Abby and Libby and getting a seriously disturbed child killer, who's gotten off Scott free for 6 years, off the streets and justice for these girls and their families.

If RA is not that guy, or the State fails to prove his guilt BARD to a jury of his peers, that's something we'll have to live with.

MOO

This trial better have good coverage, gavel to gavel!

 

[girlhasnoname]

Thank you for posting this, I wanted to mention MW’s military background but didn’t have an approved source on hand.

I'm sincerely asking because I am so confused over this. MW sent the photos to a buddy in Fishers, IN who then sent them to R in Texas. R in Texas was in the Air Force and he is the one who committed suicide after being questioned by LE right? Was MW ever in the military?

<snipped from DM article & BBM>

Westerman allegedly sent those photos to a Fishers man who was employed at the Fort Wayne U.S. Air Force Base, who went on to share them with a man from Texas.

The unidentified Texas man posted the photos to various YT and podcast creators.

On October 5, officials were notified of the leak and went on to interrogate the Fishers man. He killed himself after the questioning.


MOO

 

[Salah11]

I believe he is guilty and acted alone but the only question for me is if he knew they were there then how did he find out that information.

He worked in a CVS and had a kid so knowing children were off that day I guess was common knowledge so maybe he just went out there on the off chance and saw a opportunity and took it.

IMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

New filings

01/29/2024	Motion to Compel Discovery Filed Motion to Compel Discovery.pdf Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 01/27/2024
01/29/2024	Motion Filed Verified Motion to Disqualify Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 01/28/2024
01/29/2024	Response to a Petition Filed State's Response to Defense's Mtn for Transfer.pdf Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 01/29/2024

 

[TL4S]

New filings

01/29/2024	Motion to Compel Discovery Filed Motion to Compel Discovery.pdf Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 01/27/2024
01/29/2024	Motion Filed Verified Motion to Disqualify Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 01/28/2024
01/29/2024	Response to a Petition Filed State's Response to Defense's Mtn for Transfer.pdf Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 01/29/2024

Ooh no. Here we go.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I'm sincerely asking because I am so confused over this. MW sent the photos to a buddy in Fishers, IN who then sent them to R in Texas. R in Texas was in the Air Force and he is the one who committed suicide after being questioned by LE right? Was MW ever in the military?

<snipped from DM article & BBM>

Westerman allegedly sent those photos to a Fishers man who was employed at the Fort Wayne U.S. Air Force Base, who went on to share them with a man from Texas.

The unidentified Texas man posted the photos to various YT and podcast creators.

On October 5, officials were notified of the leak and went on to interrogate the Fishers man. He killed himself after the questioning.


MOO

It’s so easy to become confused in this case.
MW sent the pictures to R in Fishers Indiana,
then R sent to MRC in Texas.
If MRC put crime scene photos on his you tube or forwarded to others then he needs to be charged as well IMO.
MRC sent photos to the Murder sheet.

 

[TL4S]

I'm sincerely asking because I am so confused over this. MW sent the photos to a buddy in Fishers, IN who then sent them to R in Texas. R in Texas was in the Air Force and he is the one who committed suicide after being questioned by LE right? Was MW ever in the military?

<snipped from DM article & BBM>

Westerman allegedly sent those photos to a Fishers man who was employed at the Fort Wayne U.S. Air Force Base, who went on to share them with a man from Texas.

The unidentified Texas man posted the photos to various YT and podcast creators.

On October 5, officials were notified of the leak and went on to interrogate the Fishers man. He killed himself after the questioning.


MOO

R was in Fishers Indiana and had been in the military. He is the one who committed suicide and who MW sent the photos to. R then sent them on to MRC, who lives in Texas.

 

[girlhasnoname]

It’s so easy to become confused in this case.
MW sent the pictures to R in Fishers Indiana,
then R sent to MRC in Texas.
If MRC put crime scene photos on his you tube or forwarded to others then he needs to be charged as well IMO.
MRC sent photos to the Murder sheet.

So it was R who was in the Air Force in Texas who committed suicide correct?