Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

[max99]

They do not know who the killer is. They would not "watch and wait" for 3 years for a major homicide of 2 teenage girls, believe me. If they knew who the killer was, he would be under continual surveillance. His phone and internet records would be gone over in detail. They would arrest him for something Friday evening, even if only a traffic violation, and hold him over the weekend, interviewing him with teams of detectives while he was sleep-deprived, to try to force a confession. Since this has not happened, they do not know who the killer is.

unless it is someone that they need to have more evidence against than their usual perp? See the Rebecca Zahau case - obvious perpetrator yet outside the civil case, still "unsolved" - oj Simpson another example? money (notoriety) talks, justice walks...

 

[Trebor5591]

It is “a hint”, to attract attention. Kim Riley said, “every crime scene has some DNA”. And go guess, whose, the victims’, the perpetrator’s, some random people’s, or even animals’ one. But we get interested, right?

Yes, but I was referring to the so-called "suggestive fingerprint", not "suggestive DNA". Either you have a fingerprint, or a partial fingerprint, or you don't.

 

[HOPE770145]

Here’s why I don’t like the theory that the girls knew this man.

If they knew him, most likely other people in their lives knew him too. Then this wouldn’t be a mystery.

This guy was a stranger. Moo

LE have made various statements including confirming the sketches are of two different men, or the suspect might not look exactly like either sketch. JMO what that’s suggesting is they don’t want anyone to get too hung up on the likeness to a sketch - now three years old to boot.

It’s important to note that sketches are not photographs - a sketch is only as similar as the accuracy of a witness’s memory.

Another thing is very important to consider - the murders of Abby and Libby were not witnessed by anyone. Nobody saw anything that warranted reporting a situation to LE while the girls were only considered missing as no foul play was suspected in their disappearance...until their bodies were found.

So hypothetically to explain the two different sketches, I can see a scenario happening such as this - during the investigation, officers attempt to piece together who was where at any given time. One or more witnesses saw somebody, somewhere who LE decided given time/location, etc must have been an actual sighting of the suspect, so sketch #1 was created and released.

Then later, for whatever reason LE began to doubt it was the suspect connected to that particular sighting. Maybe they located the sighted person, determined the timeline didn’t fit, or began to doubt the witness’s credibility - they never told us the reason, only that the investigation was “changing directions”.

So they looked back into the files and determined another witness had made a different observation of somebody, somewhere and determined through their investigation this indeed was the suspect. So the different sketch was released, once again only as similar as the accuracy of the witness’s memory.

This is often how investigations go, POIs rise and fall to and from #1 suspect during the course of an active investigation. But usually LE doesn’t release a sketch adamantly declaring “this is our suspect” and then retract it later, then releasing a different sketch. I’m not sure the reason for that, hopefully we’ll learn the answer some day when the guilty perpetrator is arrested and tried.

JMO

I believe this is inside edition where the LE officer states the POI looks in between both sketches as opposed to saying the first one is null and void.

If Libby or Abby didn't say something to someone, maybe another girl did. Someone should listen to what she has to say. They aren't the only two that thought the guy was creepy.

They do not know who the killer is. They would not "watch and wait" for 3 years for a major homicide of 2 teenage girls, believe me. If they knew who the killer was, he would be under continual surveillance. His phone and internet records would be gone over in detail. They would arrest him for something Friday evening, even if only a traffic violation, and hold him over the weekend, interviewing him with teams of detectives while he was sleep-deprived, to try to force a confession. Since this has not happened, they do not know who the killer is.

sometimes they have strong suspicions and wait to gather enough evidence or loopholes to follow through, they want to do this right MOO

 

[insearchoflight]

LE has stated the have DNA but didn’t specify if it’s perps DNA. One would assume it is, because why say you have the girls DNA? That’s obvious.

I think they don’t want to publicly state they have perps DNA because they don’t want him to be careful. They want him to slip up and get his DNA in the system so they can bust him.

They have DNA, but no match. And that’s MOO

 

[MistyWaters]

I believe this is inside edition where the LE officer states the POI looks in between both sketches as opposed to saying the first one is null and void.


sometimes they have strong suspicions and wait to gather enough evidence or loopholes to follow through, they want to do this right MOO

How can someone look in-between the person depicted in two entirely different sketches? That’s akin to describing the suspect as a man who appears caucasian between the approximate ages of 20 and 60 with hair, two eyes, a nose, a mouth.

I think we’re getting too caught up in sketches - they’re not photographs - and Carters response was intended to diminish the continual focus by the public. LE never guaranteed either sketch was 100% accurate as the unreliability of witness sketches is well documented.

JMO at the different time when each sketch was released LE hoped it would jump-start their investigation through receiving a solid tip from someone who knows that person and who was aware of incriminating information. Unfortunately I don’t think that happened but LE certainly can’t be blamed for trying. JMO

 

[HOPE770145]

How can someone look in-between the person depicted in two entirely different sketches? That’s akin to describing the suspect as a caucasian man between the age of 20 and 60 with hair, two eyes, a nose, a mouth.

JMO people are getting too caught up in sketches - they’re not photographs - and Carters response was intended to diminish the continual focus by the public. LE never guaranteed either sketch was 100% accurate as the unreliability of witness sketches is well documented.

JMO at the different time when each sketch was released LE hoped it would jump-start their investigation through receiving a solid tip from someone who knows that person and who was aware of incriminating information. Unfortunately I don’t think that happened but LE certainly can’t be blamed for trying. JMO

I was repeating what the LE detective said to the interviewer. He said, think in between these 2 photos.

 

[MistyWaters]

I was repeating what the LE detective said to the interviewer. He said, think in between these 2 photos.

If LE knows exactly what this person looks like, why don’t they just draw up a composite? My answer would be - because they don’t know who it is or what he looks like.

This is the problem...we might assume LE knows exactly who the killer is and precisely what he looks like, so maybe they’re just giving us clues and hints so we can join in on a virtual hunt.......but in reality LE doesn’t know. If they did this real life tragic double murder case would be solved by now and LE wouldn’t have to plead to the public for tips to help them figure out who the killer is. Because if LE has already solved the case some cold-blooded lowlife would already be charged and convicted and be rotting in prison this very minute.

 

[HOPE770145]

If LE knows exactly what this person looks like, why don’t they just draw up a composite? My answer would be - because they don’t know who it is or what he looks like.

This is the problem...we might assume LE knows exactly who the killer is and precisely what he looks like, so maybe they’re just giving us clues and hints so we can join in on a virtual hunt.......but in reality LE doesn’t know. If they did this real life tragic double murder case would be solved by now and LE wouldn’t have to plead to the public for tips to help them figure out who the killer is. Because if LE has already solved the case some cold-blooded lowlife would already be charged and convicted and be rotting in prison this very minute.

I think it's to scare the POI also. I think they have a good idea of who it may be. MOO If you look at their last press conference, LE taunts the murderer. There was something left at the crime scene or in the phone or some kind of evidence that is pointing to a POI that they are watching. Looks to me that they found the crime scene epically disturbing. I am sure that the FBI is on this also and they are looking for this guy and or watching POI. They know something that the killer wants to know. based on that last press conference

 

[MistyWaters]

They do not know who the killer is. They would not "watch and wait" for 3 years for a major homicide of 2 teenage girls, believe me. If they knew who the killer was, he would be under continual surveillance. His phone and internet records would be gone over in detail. They would arrest him for something Friday evening, even if only a traffic violation, and hold him over the weekend, interviewing him with teams of detectives while he was sleep-deprived, to try to force a confession. Since this has not happened, they do not know who the killer is.

To know and yet hold all the press conferences, schedule the TV appearances pleading for tips, several agencies wasting time and money processing the humungous volume of 50,000 or so tips.....if this was all a sham I would suggest people would be totally outraged at not only the utter incompetence but the foolhardy approach to needlessly cast suspicion onto any man who vaguely resembles either the video, audio, photo or one of the sketches.

I agree with you 100%, LE don’t know who the killer is.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think it's to scare the POI also. I think they have a good idea of who it may be. MOO If you look at their last press conference, LE taunts the murderer. There was something left at the crime scene or in the phone or some kind of evidence that is pointing to a POI that they are watching. Looks to me that they found the crime scene epically disturbing. I am sure that the FBI is on this also and they are looking for this guy and or watching POI. They know something that the killer wants to know. based on that last press conference

It’s also a very common police strategy to cause alarm, in an attempt to rattle an unknown criminals chains and based on criminal profiling, in the hopes the killer will act out in such a way as to arouse suspicion in others. If LE knew who the killer is I don’t think televising a one-to-one conversation would be necessary and neither would LE waste time talking in coded references.

But we all have different opinions on the matter. What’s really most important is an arrest comes soon.

 

[HOPE770145]

It’s also a very common police strategy to cause alarm, in an attempt to rattle an unknown criminals chains and based on criminal profiling, in the hopes the killer will act out in such a way as to arouse suspicion in others. If LE knew who the killer is I don’t think televising a one-to-one conversation would be necessary and neither would LE waste time talking in coded references.

But we all have different opinions on the matter. What’s really most important is an arrest comes soon.

They will I am confident that they will and soon. IMO.

 

[HOPE770145]

so they did find DNA? FBI involved, they have the best criminal profilers in the world, they have access to the best psychiatrist and criminal psychologists forensic psychologists to understand the impact of this on all levels, so I think they have a good idea of the person involved, they may not know who he is exactly but they have him profiled. MO

 

[HOPE770145]

. They believe the POI is from Delphi. Someone is not talking and they had better start talking. IMO

 

[Charlot123]

The other thing that has bothered me in this case is the fact that they had taken a video of the suspect on there phone. I don’t remember which girl it was but why did they feel threatened enough to start taking video. Did they feel they were being followed? Did they see a weapon? Did they recognize the person and know he was bad news? Does LE know why they started video taping him? Is there any clues on the phone like a Snapchat or a text to someone saying something about them being followed or that the person had a weapon? Also can someone explain to me why the two sketches look so different. I have seen post on Reddit about a couple theories and something about there being two men involved in the case and that’s why there different because they are different people, but I still haven’t found a source saying so. Has anyone heard an explanation from LE?

What if they were ...sleuthing him? Or them? Or someone?

 

[sunshineray]

Sorry, the question was to JnRyan, but I immediately got scared for my eyesight. Here it is, “suggestive evidence of fingerprints”, R upper corner

Wow that's something that's hopefully been useful in whittling down the suspect pool. The date on this article is very recent? The way I'm reading it...9,000 tips in 2019 and 3,000 just this year...[2020]?

 

[Charlot123]

Charlot, you are the first, who also thinks, BG's shoes seem to be thin-soled. Calms me down.

Yes, and the funny thing, I just realized it myself. I was thinking about the feet of the homeless, and their footwear, and the bad condition of what is under the footwear...and how unlikely BG they’d look. Maybe his jacket looks like that of a typical Indiana man, but his shoes do not.

From my Midwestern experience, there may be “unusually warm” days, but in winter, there is snow. And in farmland, melted snow on the ground turns everything into mud. So if anyone tells me that the trails and the forests and the cemetery were all clean, I would be very much surprised.

So a homeless person I’d rule out. I think that a farmer, too, would be more prone to wear something like what LL Bean sells, with resin on the bottoms (forgot their name).

Ironically, a hunter would not wear thin-soled shoes, either.

Now, it does not rule out a truck driver, because he is inside his cabin. I’d expect a truck driver to wear something allowing his feet to get slightly puffy by the end of the day, but in principle, he can wear thin-soled shoes. And they could be decently clean...like the BG’s ones.

So one of the two, he either got out of the car/truck and stepped on that bridge, or he just made a few steps down. Or something like it. He did not walk too far, nor was he walking around since 12 noon, on the trails and back. Nor did he walk in a dirty forest. I don’t know how was the soil around the cemetery, the locals have to tell us.

And speaking about shoes, Abby’s sneakers on the photo are also very clean. She was driven to the trails in the car...but how clean are the trails? (The bridge looked dry on Libby’s photo.)

 

[HOPE770145]

Yes, and the funny thing, I just realized it myself. I was thinking about the feet of the homeless, and their footwear, and the bad condition of what is under the footwear...and how unlikely BG they’d look. Maybe his jacket looks like that of a typical Indiana man, but his shoes do not.

From my Midwestern experience, there may be “unusually warm” days, but in winter, there is snow. And in farmland, melted snow on the ground turns everything into mud. So if anyone tells me that the trails and the forests and the cemetery were all clean, I would be very much surprised.

So a homeless person I’d rule out. I think that a farmer, too, would be more prone to wear something like what LL Bean sells, with resin on the bottoms (forgot their name).

Ironically, a hunter would not wear thin-soled shoes, either.

Now, it does not rule out a truck driver, because he is inside his cabin. I’d expect a truck driver to wear something allowing his feet to get slightly puffy by the end of the day, but in principle, he can wear thin-soled shoes. And they could be decently clean...like the BG’s ones.

So one of the two, he either got out of the car/truck and stepped on that bridge, or he just made a few steps down. Or something like it. He did not walk too far, nor was he walking around since 12 noon, on the trails and back. Nor did he walk in a dirty forest. I don’t know how was the soil around the cemetery, the locals have to tell us.

And speaking about shoes, Abby’s sneakers on the photo are also very clean. She was driven to the trails in the car...but how clean are the trails? (The bridge looked dry on Libby’s photo.)

Looks like he has nice shoes, kinda like coming in from the office. Works in town? Wondering about other sittings . This guys is clean cut I think. JMO

 

[sunshineray]

The bridge the kids were on that day, was it a railway bridge of some kind? What was it used for? When he said girls in the video it sounds as if he knew them somehow or someway, were they communicating with anyone via text message? Seems as though he was familiar somehow, the fact the girls taped him tells me they knew and felt he was after them and somethign was off IMO

There are video interviews of Abby and Libby's family members done by a man named Renner (can't recall his first name but the interviews are done in 360*). In one, Abby' mom talks about listening to some of the audio and her daughter commenting about getting away from the end of the bridge as BG approached. Libby said something in reply about we can't the trails ends right there (paraphrasing). So yes at the very least Abby voiced wanting to move on up the trail, away from the bridge. Oh how I wished they just taken off thru those woods or people's property as he walked across. They would have had a head start and could have screamed their heads off if he dared to follow. It's so so sad. God Bless those two angels.

 

[Warwick1991]

Yes, and the funny thing, I just realized it myself. I was thinking about the feet of the homeless, and their footwear, and the bad condition of what is under the footwear...and how unlikely BG they’d look. Maybe his jacket looks like that of a typical Indiana man, but his shoes do not.

From my Midwestern experience, there may be “unusually warm” days, but in winter, there is snow. And in farmland, melted snow on the ground turns everything into mud. So if anyone tells me that the trails and the forests and the cemetery were all clean, I would be very much surprised.

So a homeless person I’d rule out. I think that a farmer, too, would be more prone to wear something like what LL Bean sells, with resin on the bottoms (forgot their name).

Ironically, a hunter would not wear thin-soled shoes, either.

Now, it does not rule out a truck driver, because he is inside his cabin. I’d expect a truck driver to wear something allowing his feet to get slightly puffy by the end of the day, but in principle, he can wear thin-soled shoes. And they could be decently clean...like the BG’s ones.

So one of the two, he either got out of the car/truck and stepped on that bridge, or he just made a few steps down. Or something like it. He did not walk too far, nor was he walking around since 12 noon, on the trails and back. Nor did he walk in a dirty forest. I don’t know how was the soil around the cemetery, the locals have to tell us.

And speaking about shoes, Abby’s sneakers on the photo are also very clean. She was driven to the trails in the car...but how clean are the trails? (The bridge looked dry on Libby’s photo.)

There are all-weather men’s waterproof shoes that have slightly thicker than normal soles. These are cross-over casual shoes that are suitable for both outdoor indoor wear. They aren’t good for more than an inch or two of snow or deep mud, but are popular in the fall and spring. Perhaps he’s wearing this type of shoe. I find it hard to tell what kind of footwear he has from the images, though.

 

[Charlot123]

They do not know who the killer is. They would not "watch and wait" for 3 years for a major homicide of 2 teenage girls, believe me. If they knew who the killer was, he would be under continual surveillance. His phone and internet records would be gone over in detail. They would arrest him for something Friday evening, even if only a traffic violation, and hold him over the weekend, interviewing him with teams of detectives while he was sleep-deprived, to try to force a confession. Since this has not happened, they do not know who the killer is.

It depends. They can do it with RL. But what if their suspect is a successful attorney? Or a local doctor having a successful attorney on a retainer? Would they, as you said, “hold him over the weekend, interviewing him with teams of detectives while he was sleep-deprived, to try to force a confession”? They know that they would be looking into several lawsuits, one against themselves, another against Carroll County, and the third, probably, against the State of Indiana.