Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #99

[Falling Down]

They will come out of the woodwork because some people would start combing through FB pictures of random people and turning those people in as "tips" when they see a picture of a car that they think might be it.

IMO they are leaving details out because there is some kind of "story" to go with the vehicle and only someone who's legit can tell it or validate it. IE. the car was leaking oil that day and when John Doe calls in the tip he says, "My cousin borrowed my 92 white Lebaron that day and they must have done something to it because it was down 2 quarts when they brought it back." LE recognizes this as a good tip because there was a big puddle of oil in the parking lot and that was never released to public.

Jumping off from that...

In the drone and helicopter videos I've seen from the 14th, I haven't seen any LE processing the area around that building. Meaning, processing for evidence of vehicles parked there, that sort of thing. Tire tracks. Measuring tire tracks for wheelbase dimensions. Etc.

Good post.

 

[cjack410]

Falling Down...there is a video from the 15th on youtube titled "delphi girls murdered" its 3 min 8 second long at the 2 min 36 second mark there is a pick of the location with many many police vehicles there. The video is from the 15th but who knows when the TV station shot that video. It could have been from earlier on the 14th

There appears to be a sort of commercial vehicle parked in the parking lot sideways. It doesn't look like an LE vehicle. Can you somehow post this video.

thanks

 

[MassGuy]

Falling Down...there is a video from the 15th on youtube titled "delphi girls murdered" its 3 min 8 second long at the 2 min 36 second mark there is a pick of the location with many many police vehicles there. The video is from the 15th but who knows when the TV station shot that video. It could have been from earlier on the 14th

There appears to be a sort of commercial vehicle parked in the parking lot sideways. It doesn't look like an LE vehicle. Can you somehow post this video.

thanks

Even if it was the 14th, that was a day late.

That vehicle was gone long before the news media began covering this on the evening of the 13th.

 

[bodester413]

Jumping off from that...

In the drone and helicopter videos I've seen from the 14th, I haven't seen any LE processing the area around that building. Meaning, processing for evidence of vehicles parked there, that sort of thing. Tire tracks. Measuring tire tracks for wheelbase dimensions. Etc.

Good post.

There were some tire tracks, or what looked like tire tracks in the grass.

 

[Falling Down]

Falling Down...there is a video from the 15th on youtube titled "delphi girls murdered" its 3 min 8 second long at the 2 min 36 second mark there is a pick of the location with many many police vehicles there. The video is from the 15th but who knows when the TV station shot that video. It could have been from earlier on the 14th

There appears to be a sort of commercial vehicle parked in the parking lot sideways. It doesn't look like an LE vehicle. Can you somehow post this video.

thanks

I've seen it, thanks. I'm not 100% sure what type of vehicle it is, but I think it was part of the investigation.

JMO

 

[NickoD]

Great first post @7%Reichenbach. I agree with most of your thoughts on this.

 

[janewall]

"We're still looking for the car that was parked in the lot," Riley told News 18. "If somebody can give us that information, we want that information as quickly as possible."

"Somebody may have already interviewed him," said Riley. "I'm not going to say they have or have not, but there's a possibility that has happened. The person apparently gave the investigating officers the information they were looking for. We have to try to go back and check on the information that we have received.

ISP on Delphi killer: 'Somebody may have already interviewed him'

BBM.

I've been thinking about this statement for the best part of two days, and I cannot for the life of me parse it. Maybe I need to go back to 8th grade myself, and work on my reading comprehension.

Does it mean LE received pertinent information, but they don't know from whom?

Or that they know the identity of the person who gave it to them, but in the light of some new development they want to revisit that person's entire story/alibi – and for some reason LE cannot locate any record of the original statement to verify what they remember being told?

I know LE has interviewed a lot of witnesses and received even more tips, but it sounds as though some information they thought they had established has now come into doubt ... and/or cannot be properly sourced or located. Did a set of files go missing? Or was some witness misidentified early on, and now they are desperately seeking to establish that person's authentic identity so as to corroborate the 'information' he provided in light of subsequent discoveries? Or maybe worst of all, did the person literally "give them the information they were looking for" – not the truth, but what the interviewer expected of him/her, assumed to be truthful and even obvious given the person's absolute trustworthiness?
Any way you slice it, it's bad.

If a witness somehow concealed his true identity early on during an interview, or if a solid citizen blatantly lied to LE, and LE only just discovered this betrayal of trust which succeeded in steering them away from the killer's trail for 2 years, that would explain a lot of the tone during the presser.

*MOO. Also, edited for redundancy/clarity.

 

[Falling Down]

There were some tire tracks, or what looked like tire tracks in the grass.

Makes me wonder how many of those tracks were due to the search the night before.

JMO

 

[Joolz1975]

I'm really in two minds about this car that was left between 12-5pm. And I am I increasingly thinking they do not actually know who the car belongs to.

I'm thinking they have a vague description and maybe not much more because if they knew 100% who that car belonged to and maybe questioned the owner/owners at the time then why have they not hauled them back in for questioning to clarify in more detail where they were that day since it appears to have become such an important bit of the investigation?

Even if it just to rule these people out completely?

Also these people have had two weeks to come forward and have not as far as we know so even more reason to pay them a visit rather than wait.

 

[pepper 34]

*

 

[Charlot123]

RBBM

Not a joke, but I'll share a memory.

I was out taking my usual walk right after this happened. All of a sudden, a girl, who looked so much like Abby, came running by me with a little dog on a leash. She had the same shape face, hair color, freckles, and was about the same age.

IIRC, Abby was a dog lover.

Sad as I was about this case, seeing this girl made me smile.

Abby and Libby will live forever in our memories.

Did Abby herself have a dog?

 

[gitana1]

I have just recently discovered WS and after reading pretty much nonstop for the past two days I have decided to write my own post. There are some really good, objective thoughts on here although the wading through muck to get to them can get tiresome. I have followed this case from the beginning, however much more recently since the new sketch has been revealed during the press conference. Please note that all of this post is my own opinion based upon the facts of the case. Anything that is speculation and theory is just that.

· Location

There seems to be little to no discussion as to whether the bridge itself is of some significance in relation to the crime. I believe this location was well scouted by BG leading up to that day. I also believe that aside from the strategic advantages the location held for the commission of the crime that BG chose it because it is an important location to him. BG definitely felt safe at the location. BG could very well have spent significant time there as a youth or is an enthusiast of train history, engineering or architecture.

· BG Profile

I for one am glad the new sketch is out. I never saw the 40s+ suspect in the still picture and definitely do not see him in the video. The newly released sketch looks much more like the man I see in the video. That being said I believe the updated age range of 20s-30s spot on. I see a guy in his mid to late 30s that could very easily pass for mid to late 20s.

I believe BG to be an organized killer. There are too many that seem to correlate brutal murder with disorganization. Yes, the bodies and phone were left at the kill site, but if an organized killer feels he has taken sufficient forensic countermeasures would he bother with trying to hide the bodies further? That may lend credence to him being unaware of the phone. I haven’t been able to determine if the clothes found near the creek and kill site marked on the map in this forum are from BG, the girls, or some third party. If BG left the blue jacket behind he could have thought the creek sufficient to wash away any evidence.

If the clothes belong to the girls it could be indicative of sexual assault. This is about power and control to BG and while possible that sexual assault(s) did occur I don’t believe they did. BG wanted to keep control of the girls while inflicting as much terror as possible. That is his fantasy, that is where he derived his pleasure from. How long could he deprive them of their free will until he decided to take their lives? BG seems very methodical and has meditated upon this act for some time, again pointing to organization.

What appears to be a handgun bulging from BG’s pocket shows premeditation and organization as opposed to disorganized killers frequently choosing weapons of opportunity. The creek itself could be a weapon of opportunity but I don’t think he would have moved them back up into the woods had he drowned them. I do not believe the girls were shot but the handgun was used to ensure compliance. I do not recall which thread it was in but an interview transcript done by CNN and the private property owner has him recalling that on 2/16 the crime scene was blocked off but he couldn’t see any blood in the area again ruling out a gun shot as well as stabbing and blunt force trauma. Also the weather history shows that there was no rain prior to 2/16. So if we rule out the creek and any type of death that has prolific exsanguination we are left with suffocation and strangulation. Again it is all about power and control to BG and those methods have been used by other killers to revive their victims just to repeat it over and over exerting his control until it goes too far.

Another thing that leads me to believe this was highly planned is the Gray Hughes’ crime flow video (not sure if I can link). The timeline is incredibly tight. I do not believe the girls saw BG while on the trail. BG scouted this area so much he had plenty of vantage points to stalk his victims while remaining undetected until absolutely necessary. 1:45 to 2:07 PM, 22 minutes is how long it took the girls to get to roughly the middle of the bridge where BG is clearly not visible yet based on the Snapchat photo. The bridge can be crossed in 5 minutes or less by an adult so lets say two girls taking pictures might reach the end by 2:12-2:17. BG is most likely tucked away in a vantage point close to the barricade waiting for Libby to turn back around after the picture of Abby to make his move onto the bridge. BG was about 60 feet from the end of the bridge when he is in the video. This may very well be the first time the girls notice BG and any comments about him may just be where did that guy come from since the majority of conversation was teen girl talk. If the walk to the shallow creek crossing is roughly 10 minutes that puts them at the kill site at roughly 2:30. I don’t know how much time passes here but it is something BG knows quite well because he has already planned his escape and made dry runs along the creek back to his parking spot at the DPS building. We do know that it is roughly a 35-40 minute walk from the kill site to the DPS building based on previous timeframes and similar distances. That would leave BG with about 20-30 minutes to commit the murders before he had to hoof it back overland along the creek back to the trail without being seen by the aforementioned Cheyenne on the trail as she was arriving since her Snapchat on the bridge was 3:47.

I believe that had a witness passed BG on the trail after the murders their might have been a third victim from a gunshot. This leads me to believe that the witness(es) had seen BG previously on the trail during his scouting expeditions.

BG is a member of the regional community, not necessarily Delphi. Indianapolis is a little more than an hour away and West Lafayette under 30 minutes. That greatly increases the population from just 3000 in Delphi and 20,000 in Carrol County, to well over a million people when considering Indianapolis metro area a mere 80 miles away.

I believe BG to be educated but of average intelligence. The calm and collected nature of his voice when ordering the girls down the hill shows he has played this out in his mind many times before. The level of planning and the efficient manner in which BG executed this crime couldn’t be achieved spur of the moment. BG may be employed in a field that requires task and process management.

· Victims/Motive

BG has stalked this area before. Looking for the right victim or victims combined with the right timing for opportunity to commit the crime unhindered. If BG is in his 20s the girls may have represented a recent time in his life where he felt powerless, impotent and emasculated by repeated rejection amongst his peers.

If BG is in his mid-30s (which I find more likely) these girls could have been proxies for a young woman in BG’s life, possibly a daughter in the 10-15 year age range that he’s lost control of somehow. The victims are tied to the motive somehow. BG wasn’t out there to kill just anybody he had very specific criteria to meet and these girls triggered something in BG.

· 4/22/19 Press Conference

The sheer indignation Carter displays in the press conference along to all the direct addresses to BG leads me to believe BG had interjected himself into the investigation someway somehow. BG may have very well been a member of a search party. I do not think BG would lead anyone to the crime scene but he would want to know when the girls were found. BG could have very easily sat in his vehicle at DPS until news of a search had started and shown up at the fire station ready to help. After the bodies were found BG could have been interviewed like other searchers as Carter alluded to in the press conference. There is a WLFITV news report from 2/14/17 where reporter makes specific mention of a man from West Lafayette that has a daughter the girls age and decided to come help search I got an eerie feeling when considering possible motive for BG especially if his daughter was off school that day too.

I hope some of this makes sense and might open up new trains of thought for some people. I do not mean to be graphic or distasteful in any manner. This case has bothered me from day 1 and I allowed myself time to dig into it. Please be kind and informative if you have facts to refute anything that is opinion or speculation of mine. These girls deserve the best we have to offer and sometimes that means allowing the mind to tread into dark territory, please don’t allow fear to keep your brains from working objectively for Abby and Libby.

I truly can't see how anyone can detect with any level of certainty what's in BG's pockets.

But otherwise you make some interesting points. I like your points about organization versus disorganization and possible COD.

One thing that throws me about the whole thing is how little time he had. LE stated that the girls were murdered within minutes of his image being captured on Libby's phone.

Which indicates to me the murders were captured on the recording.

If so, I think maybe either he was interrupted in some manner or his main goal was killing them versus sexual assault or causing prolonged torment.

I'm trying to think what the Zodiac killer in California did. I think with some he killed them without warning and quickly. Makes me think of the recent guy out here in So Cal. who was trying to kill - it appears- campers in a local park, and ended up killing Tristan Beaudette who was in his tent with his two toddler daughters.

 

[MassGuy]

ISP on Delphi killer: 'Somebody may have already interviewed him'

BBM.

I've been thinking about this statement for the best part of two days, and I cannot for the life of me parse it. Maybe I need to go back to 8th grade myself, and work on my reading comprehension.

Does it mean LE received pertinent information, but they don't know from whom?

Or that they know the identity of the person who gave it to them, but in the light of some new development they want to revisit that person's entire story/alibi – and for some reason LE cannot locate any record of the original statement to verify what they remember being told?

I know LE has interviewed a lot of witnesses and received even more tips, but it sounds as though some information they thought they had established has now come into doubt ... and/or cannot be properly sourced or located. Did a set of files go missing? Or was some witness misidentified early on, and now they are desperately seeking to establish that person's authentic identity so as to corroborate the 'information' he provided in light of subsequent discoveries? Or maybe worst of all, did the person literally "tell them what they wanted to hear" – not the truth, but what the interviewer expected of him/her, assumed to be truthful and even obvious given the person's absolute trustworthiness?
Any way you slice it, it's bad.

If a witness lied or somehow concealed his true identity early on during an interview, or if a solid citizen blatantly lied to LE, and LE only just discovered this betrayal of trust which succeeded in steering them away from the killer's trail for 2 years, that would explain a lot of the tone during the presser.

I think this was simply an effort to rattle this guy, which was clearly the intent of much of that press conference.

Law enforcement was sending the message that they are closing in on him, and that if he thinks he is safe because he has survived a previous interview with them, he is sorely mistaken.

Looking at this another way. Delphi is a small town, and due to the fact that they believe he has ties there, is it mathematically probable that law enforcement has contacted someone within his circle.

So this statement makes sense, either way you look at it.

 

[IQuestion]

Delphi UMC has really been invested in the case from the beginning, haven't they? It appears they have done their best to support the families, LE, and the community. I was just re-reading through the church newsletter OfficerHops provided for us (back on thread 90).
Here are a few of the things I found on page 2, "Letters to Home":

[RSBM]
"I am pleased with the amazing way our church responded for the community, that, in the midst of terrible evil, we served as an island of peace. From the moment the calls came in, our church was present as first responders who were out in search teams Monday night.....

Come Tuesday, I witnessed so many of our members on volunteer teams with the fire and police..... the church was present in the initial stages..... engaged with the schools each day helping to counsel students.....

I was hesitant to host the Press Conference, however God confirmed my decision as State Police Superintendent Doug Carter shared in reverent tones what happened......" (I'm a little uncertain if the minister is indicating he was told "what happened" personally, or just the
information disclosed at the PC in general)?
http://www.delphiumc.org/hp_wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/MARCH2017-NEWSLETTER.pdf

THE SHACK REFERENCE- perhaps a member of the congregation gave a copy to one of the family members? Not insinuating anything nefarious with this comment. Am just curious. Could be someone's way of trying to promote a community of forgiveness in the healing process? Regardless; I was just agreeing that the church as been very involved in trying to help with the investigation. Wasn't trying to write a book-sorry!

Wow JDough The press conference held on February 2017 was held at the United Methodist Church of Delphi??? I thought that stage looked familiar. Oh geez, now I am off to "looking for faces in the crowd"....again. If you want to look, too, this is the link to that
press conference. <modsnip - implication of involvement of a non-POI/non-suspect at this time)

 

[MassGuy]

Wow JDough The press conference held on February 2017 was held at the United Methodist Church of Delphi??? I thought that stage looked familiar. Oh geez, now I am off to "looking for faces in the crowd"....again. If you want to look, too, this is the link to that
press conference. <modsnip>

I’m sure that everyone in that community followed the case from minute one.

 

[bodester413]

Makes me wonder how many of those tracks were due to the search the night before.

JMO

Good point. There would have been vehicles all over the place that night.

 

[cjack410]

I dont think LE has stated the girls were murdered right after his image on the phone. I also think I read an interview with Sheriff Tobe that they do not have the murders on tape. They have more of his voice I think, but not the murders.

I could be wrong but I dont remember seeing that anywhere

 

[marisab67]

Well, it must be someone is being uncooperative and has hidden the car. If it was sold the VIN would be registered under the new owner. Even salvage yards record the VIN numbers of vehicles they purchase and later destroy.

I think it is also possible that they can’t get a warrant to search the car without probable cause and if the owners have an alibi and there is no way to get this probable cause without somebody saying ‘yes I saw it at the scene’.

 

[puppyraiser]

A few thoughts/questions...
1) If LE has recently stated to be patient with them as they are just beginning, does anyone think that those who were apparently cleared in the early days are back under the microscope? Or do you think has LE set their sights on one or two possible "new" suspects ?
2) Has anyone else gone through the 'unconfirmed' list of potential witnesses and wondered why Libby and Abby became his victims as opposed to say a single female (apparently older than the girls) who was walking the bridge alone that day, the flannel shirt guy who by DG's account was "older", the couple by the bridge (if they exist), or the other group of girls(#?) who supposedly saw a man dressed all in black. If the motive was simply to kill then there were other potential victims who were alone. If the motive was S/A, there were others there that day, alone and possibly less risky/difficult to control. Were they the target from the get-go for a different reason?

Any one could have been under the bridge, along the trail at the S end or walking behind him on the bridge when he made his approach towards the girls. I wonder how many times he glanced backwards and maybe that caught Libby's attention and caused her to start the video?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Or was some witness misidentified early on, and now they are desperately seeking to establish that person's authentic identity so as to corroborate the 'information' he provided in light of subsequent discoveries? Or maybe worst of all, did the person literally "tell them what they wanted to hear" – not the truth, but what the interviewer expected of him/her, assumed to be truthful and even obvious given the person's absolute trustworthiness?

Any way you slice it, it's bad.

If a witness lied or somehow concealed his true identity early on during an interview, or if a solid citizen blatantly lied to LE, and LE only just discovered this betrayal of trust which succeeded in steering them away from the killer's trail for 2 years, that would explain a lot of the tone during the presser.

bbm
^^ This, I think.
If they don't know, when (very first days or later) they interviewed the person in connection with a certain parked car, then there maybe a huge problem in finding the file. - I'm so impatient!