IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #22

[Falling Down]

Yes, the remoteness of the trail...the possible parking at the cemetery....the location of the actual crime (?) all points to a thought out approach. He could have had a "kill kit", like BTK, and the victims sort of presented themselves as an opportunity. But I still stand behind the idea that the crime was premeditated, but maybe he didn't have a specific victim in mind until that day.And much comment has been made on his clothing...I'm from central IL...and most people dress that way. Farmers, truck drivers, ag industry workers, etc.

Agreed, and I like your comparison to BTK. The big difference here is BTK had a job with the City of Wichita, from what I've read, which afforded him an extra bit of 'cover' of sorts for his crimes, MOO.This one is not only premeditated, it took a lot of planning, and certain variables to collide in such a way that he was able to pull it off.

My only issue with what you posted is the trail isn't really "remote", MOO. I would call the area where the girls were found as secluded. The trail and bridge, while off the beaten path, are just east of Delphi.

OT from here on. Folks have brought up other cases where perps were found to be right under folks' noses, and sometimes even the noses of LE.I keep going back in time to Arthur Shawcross.

He joked (which is sick) about talking to undercover LE folks who were in the part of Rochester (red light district) while the investigation was underway to figure out who was perpetrating fhe crimes. The guy had an IQ of a donut, but he could sniff out the cops who were investigating the murders, he said as soon as he saw them he knew they were cops.

It turns out that there were two serial killers working that same, small section of that city, before Shawcross was hauled in.

Point being is these people can slip right by LE, and the rest of us, unnoticed.

 

[KyMom]

Imo there is almost no way the girls weren't killed within a very short time of one another on the 13th and that the killer cleared out of the area at once.

I personally can't image him sticking around for any longer than he had to either and taking a chance on being seen. I mean, you have the girl who said she was there that day after 3:00 pm and according to her there were also at least 3 other people she saw, who were there when she got there. So sticking around very long, or even coming back there would've been pretty risky for him.

jmo.

 

[emilie42]

Please see my post on dna information in the media thread. Post #49, I think. After this article, police released a statement saying they did NOT confirm dna evidence.

I believe there is some but that quote is no longer valid as a source.

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the poor reporting in some of the media sources is driving me crazy. I can't imagine how crazy it is making LE. the article from Australia that was linked earlier in this thread was just deplorable-- full of all kinds of incorrect "facts" just grabbed from wherever-- the article actually stated as fact that LE felt the case was connected to the Iowa double hom, that DNA has been collected from the crime scene, and that there are people seen hiding in the background of the photos! ARRRRGHHHHHHH

 

[ocgrad]

I think he had a piece of cord stuffed in his jacket and that is what you see sticking out of it. Haven't you ever seen someone working roll up something and not have another pocket and set inside the chest of their jacket? I have... He used it to tie their hands and led them down the hill or where ever controlling them...like you see in western movies where captives are drug by their hands behind the horses.

My sister was tied up with what looked like clothes line when she was murdered.


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I think it would be hard to hold a gun or knife on one and tie the other up at the same time. A good argument for the man in black.

 

[Rust Cohle]

Imo there is almost no way the girls weren't killed within a very short time of one another on the 13th and that the killer cleared out of the area at once.

Attacked on the 13th..It's always possible that someone could have survived overnight, and later passed on.

 

[Doghairrules]

When my brother died of a heroin overdose in a hotel, the obituary showed the day of death as the day when his body was found. He had probably been dead for two to three days.

I'm so sorry for your loss.


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[kellala]

I certainly hope so. Unfortunately, I believe there is a strong possibility this guy lives by himself, so few folks saw him if he left during the day when most were at work and he probably didn't go straight home but drove for a while.

Again, I think back to the Morgan Harrington case in Charlottesville VA where LE distributed sketch of her murderer. Co-workers of Jesse Matthews - in Charlottesville - made jokes about he looked like the murderer. (No one called it in and Matthews went on to murder Hannah Graham.) I really hope there aren't a group of workers somewhere in a plant, warehouse or on a loading dock making jokes about how their co-worker looks just like the guy in photos and not taking this seriously.

In how many cases SK's family or friends spoke up/give tips? I guess many of them stay silent in fear of the loss their family member, long legal action process, media exposure and social prejudice. The inevitable question they may ask is how if he is not convicted? If he is clear by LE maybe he will kill whoever turned him in.


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[Jill1124]

Cousins in Iowa were taken July 13, it was random just like this one. He planned it but the girls didn't plan a meet up. If you believe otherwise, it is your fear that this can and does happen. ALSO, the consensus earlier is that the male voice says "Go down the hill".... The go is said fast....

 

[liltexans]

As the investigation into the murders of two Delphi teens entered its third week, the head law enforcement official in the case assured county officials that plenty of work is going on that people may not readily see.

“I liken the headquarters to a beehive,” Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby told the Carroll County Board of Commissioners at their March 6 meeting. “There are a lot of worker bees going at it.”

“This is a huge puzzle,” he told the commissioners. “We have to put this puzzle back together.”

Not only does every lead have to be followed, but the case needs to be airtight when it heads to court, he said.

As many as 200 people are in the command center at any one time, he added, especially in the morning when officers are planning the day.

http://www.newsbug.info/monticello_...cle_9465e6fc-02d2-11e7-b1e2-03c28e34789d.html

 

[MissUnderstood]

Imo there is almost no way the girls weren't killed within a very short time of one another on the 13th and that the killer cleared out of the area at once.

I agree, I think the only way they could have died on different days is if one was actually still alive when he thought she was dead. That pains me to even say moo


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[ocgrad]

The property owner said he had been asked around 6;30pm (from memory) if the searchers could search on his property, to which he agreed... so doesn't that mean they were already searching his property on that first evening? It is a large area to search though (40 acres)....

It's a large area but they would have gone to the creek. I've read elsewhere searchers said they searched that night where the girls were found.

 

[JnRyan]

I think it would be hard to hold a gun or knife on one and tie the other up at the same time. A good argument for the man in black.

The East Area Rapist/Original Night Stalker was known to attack multiple couples and held a gun on the woman while she tied up her BF or spouse. Then he would tie her up and go back the spouse to tighten his bindings. If I remember correctly he had over 40 of these instances and he was never caught. And these were adults. With a gun or knife it is possible.

 

[jashrema]

I wasn't saying no weapon was used - I was postulating how a single person could control 2 people using the psychology of fear - it was in response to someone who thought it couldn't be achieved without a gun.
I think a weapon is likely or at the very least, tools to subdue such as rope/tape/cable ties.


I'm so sorry to hear about your sister. My heartfelt condolences to you.

Richard Speck controlled 8 grown women with just a knife, murdering 7 of them, had them tie each other up and they followed his instructions.
I don't think it would be hard to control 2 little girls. And that's what they were...little girls, on the cusp of becoming young women, but still just kids. i think libby probably started her phone recording before she was overwhelmed with fear..
and to comment on what are the odds of hiking in indiana and running across a killer? Happens all the time. These killers, driven by a compulsion that they can't control, see someone, and they HAVE to take it..they have to have it, they have to kill. It comes down to wrong place wrong time.
Sierah was riding her bike on a beautiful sunny day in a town that hadn't seen a murder like this in over 30 years..he saw her and doubled back to take her.
We just lost another local girl at OSU a few weeks ago, killer saw her walking to her car and had to take her.
That's why it really is not safe anywhere. The only safety would come from complete isolation from other humans and who does that?
We just have to be aware ALL the time, be prepared ALL the time..

 

[Scout12]

Originally Posted by AFTM
I think he had a piece of cord stuffed in his jacket and that is what you see sticking out of it. Haven't you ever seen someone working roll up something and not have another pocket and set inside the chest of their jacket? I have... He used it to tie their hands and led them down the hill or where ever controlling them...like you see in western movies where captives are drug by their hands behind the horses.

My sister was tied up with what looked like clothes line when she was murdered.


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I'm so sorry to hear what happened to your sister. My deepest condolences.

 

[margarita25]

I am confused about the cell phone pinging.

My elderly Mother, who has dementia, disappeared from her home. I called the police and they were going to ping her cell phone to find her exact location. My understanding of pinging is, you can find the tower it is pinging from and the location of the cell phone itself.

The statement from one of the girls grandfathers(I think) was it was pinging around town (more than one area). To me, that means, the cell phone was moving around town. This would indicate someone else other than Abby or Libby has the phone and was in town. Abby and Libby where on the trail and never in town.

Of course this is my understanding and MOO.

Where am I going wrong here?

(Jashrema had some insight on this from Sierah's case, iirc?)

 

[emilie42]

It's a large area but they would have gone to the creek. I've read elsewhere searchers said they searched that night where the girls were found.

Do you have a link to that? It's one of the details that has been bothering me because I could swear I read somewhere (but don't know where) that it was said they did *not* search that area that night because of it being private property and at that time no foul play was suspected. Like the cell-phone pinging thing, it's just something I'd love a clear and definitive answer on, and something that *could* get a definitive answer if only I could talk to the right people (e.g. someone officially working the case). Frustrating.

 

[Krwiley60]

Are you sure that was the context of the quote? I always thought he was referring to the general area...clean water, no garbage, nice for hiking.

I believe it was the land owner and he was talking about the crime scene.


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[steeltowngirl]

Been following along, but this is my first post since the Wolfe Sisters case in 2014. Libby and Abby's case is heartbreaking.

Saw this article today and the mention of Monon Trail caught my eye. Victims were older than Abby and Libby, but still wondering if they could be connected. "Police working to track down serial sexual predator in Indianapolis – Fox 59"
https://www.google.com/amp/fox59.co...n-serial-sexual-predator-in-indianapolis/amp/

 

[liltexans]

Once the leads start to shrink, he said, then it's harder to justify the vast resources given to the police.

While Perrine said the investigation "takes a lot of time and a lot of resources," he vowed to continue until the case is solved.

"We're not giving up," he said. "We're going to continue doing this. We just need one break. One break in this case is all it's going to take to put somebody in jail. That's our goal — to bring justice."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/investigat...ious-murder-enters-4th-week/story?id=45937133

 

[apples12]

This is MOO: The perp(s) is/are fairly local, Delphi and/or surrounding towns. There are so many disaffected, drug-alcohol dependent, poverty stricken, and hopeless individuals. They flock together, find each other, strike up short-lived "friendships" based on shared pain. Mid to late twenties in one subgroup...mingling with mid forties and fifties in another subgroup. Within this population of men aged 20 to 50, there is a subset of males who have been completely abused, neglected and abandoned, many by their drug addicted mothers. Some of this subset has hope and still believes in "the American dream". Some, however, have lost all hope and have given up. Maybe they think about suicide.

My speculation is that one younger male who has given up, has bonded with one possibly older male who has fantasies of revenge and omnipotence. If perp #2 is not older, he is for certain smarter and more charismatic. Yes, I think there may have been two killers. They planned the entire thing detail to detail over time, and then waited for the right victim(s). On Valentine's Day, they were more than ready to pounce. Abby and Libby were there by chance, and this was a crime of opportunity. They were ready to execute the plan. Afterwards, the two perps probably blended back into their previous roles as disaffected, maybe even homeless, men. They have no connection currently, laying low. The younger more depressive perp is the weaker link. The older and/or smarter has covered all bases for himself. Except he may have a juvenile record of aggressive, criminal acts and aggression.