IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #53

[Peace777]

"I just figured" means the same as "in my opinion".

RL is being asked to speculate what might have occurred when he first heard about two missing girls.

Could be but RL says "the car"!

 

[MistyWaters]

If that's what they intended to portray, then the image is virtually useless. Since the man in the photo could be anyone, then the only reason to call in a tip is if you've seen other suspicious behavior from a person you know/suspect. Otherwise, you would look at the picture that could be anyone and call in every man you've ever met who even vaguely resembled the build of BG. And, EVEN THAT is up for debate.

Just MOO, but I do think it's helpful to dissect the picture to come up with a few suspected conclusions.


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I agree. If LE had been able to determine any specific features I think it would've been emphasized. I notice the FBI poster, for what little was described, adds the word "appears to".

"Investigators have distributed a photo (shown above) of a person observed on the Delphi Historic Trail. The photo appears to depict a White male wearing blue jeans, a blue coat/jacket, and a hoodie. During the course of the investigation, preliminary evidence has led investigators to believe the aforementioned person is suspected of being involved in the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German."
https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/abigail-williams/@@download.pdf

But even so, the 16000 or so tips received is absolutely amazing. Hopefully at least some of them have proved to be viable leads.

My comment is not in reference to people dissecting the photo. If anything, it's in defence of LE as to why they didn't dissect the photo in order to get better leads.


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[douglask1958]

Not necessarily. The bar for obtaining a search warrant isn't all that high. Two or more tips that someone residing there that resembles BG, if that were the case, would be sufficient. All that is required for probable cause is that the search is reasonable and the state's interest (or rather the people's interests) outweighs the individuals interests under the 4th amendment. Probable cause is the lowest and easiest bar to clear.

For example, if you are walking down a sidewalk in a neighborhood that recently had burglaries LE has probable cause to stop you and identify you and ask you questions.

That same level probable cause - basically it is possible and just possible (no more substantive than that), that an individual is the killer - is all that is needed for a search warrant. And like I said, all it takes is two or more individuals to say someone looks like BG and that should be sufficient. Anything additional such as not having a verifiable alibi such as home alone or sleeping or a prior criminal history, no matter how non-violent , would just make it more likely to get a search warrant. It really does not take much for LE to get a search warrant. LE doesn't have to claim that it is more likely than not that the individual is the killer, for example.

If LE actually had to go to the level of accusing someone of carrying out the murders to get a search warrant then they would be handing the defense attorney for the eventual caught killer the gift of reasonable doubt because the defense attorney could simply read the accusation of murder that LE swore in the search warrant for someone else LE were sure of only to then arrest their client.

You're probably right considering that emotions were, rightfully so, running high in the Delphi community. I'm no lawyer. Just seems like a mere tip of so and so looks like so and so would not be enough to tip the scales away from a violation of the searchee's 4th amendment rights.


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[Shiressleuth]

Accoding to link posted by RoseofSharon there were multipy SW served. Jmo

70 subpoenas and warrants (of which 15 were search warrants) IIRC. What would the subpoenas be for? Have we discussed them? Would they be, for instance, to order people to provide their whereabouts or to seize property (a phone or vehicle maybe) ?

 

[MistyWaters]

Would they let a murderer run free if in fact they knew he was in on it,even if they were building a case?

It's like the chicken and the egg.

LE cannot be certain who the murderer is without all the evidence in place.

But if the risk to the public appears high, they the option of keeping their suspect under surveillance.

 

[her]

70 subpoenas and warrants (of which 15 were search warrants) IIRC. What would the subpoenas be for? Have we discussed them? Would they be, for instance, to order people to provide their whereabouts or to seize property (a phone or vehicle maybe) ?

I'm thinking the SW's could be about the other crimes they discovered and arrests made during the investigation that LE mentioned.

 

[skibaboo]

70 subpoenas and warrants (of which 15 were search warrants) IIRC. What would the subpoenas be for? Have we discussed them? Would they be, for instance, to order people to provide their whereabouts or to seize property (a phone or vehicle maybe) ?

There are two types of subpoenas. The first, called subpoena ad testificandum (pronounced "ad test- te-fi-kan-dum"), requires you to testify before a court, or other legal authority. The second, called subpoena duces tecum (pronounced "doo-seez tee-*advertiser censored*"), requires you to produce documents, materials, or other tangible evidence. http://litigation.findlaw.com/going-to-court/what-is-a-subpoena.html

I presume it would be the latter?

Phone records, IP addresses?

 

[Dawning3]

I agree. If LE had been able to determine any specific features I think it would've been emphasized. I notice the FBI poster, for what little was described, adds the word "appears to".

"Investigators have distributed a photo (shown above) of a person observed on the Delphi Historic Trail. The photo appears to depict a White male wearing blue jeans, a blue coat/jacket, and a hoodie. During the course of the investigation, preliminary evidence has led investigators to believe the aforementioned person is suspected of being involved in the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German."
https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/abigail-williams/@@download.pdf

But even so, the 16000 or so tips received is absolutely amazing. Hopefully at least some of them have proved to be viable leads.

My comment is not in reference to people dissecting the photo. If anything, it's in defence of LE as to why they didn't dissect the photo in order to get better leads.


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Thanks for the LE quotes. Either they have no better images than we do or they're being purposely vague. I was hoping they could see more details in the rest of the video that they didn't want to release. Confirmation on the mustache would be very helpful. They did allude to facial hair when they asked the public to watch for people who have recently changed their appearance.


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[Jethro4WS]

70 subpoenas and warrants (of which 15 were search warrants) IIRC. What would the subpoenas be for? Have we discussed them? Would they be, for instance, to order people to provide their whereabouts or to seize property (a phone or vehicle maybe) ?

Subpoenas are generally to businesses for such things as employee attendance records, phone records, bank records such as ATM withdrawals, etc., surveillance video, rentals such as car or hotel room rental records, and other kinds of records that would be of interest to LE such as cell tower records. I am sure there are other examples.

 

[Suglo]

There are two types of subpoenas. The first, called subpoena ad testificandum (pronounced "ad test- te-fi-kan-dum"), requires you to testify before a court, or other legal authority. The second, called subpoena duces tecum (pronounced "doo-seez tee-*advertiser censored*"), requires you to produce documents, materials, or other tangible evidence. http://litigation.findlaw.com/going-to-court/what-is-a-subpoena.html

I presume it would be the latter?

Phone records, IP addresses?

You are correct. It would be the latter. IMO as a paralegal.

 

[Shiressleuth]

ALL JMO:

I believe his alibi didn't pan out (why he lied about his whereabouts, I dunno, but I don't believe it had anything to do with the murders). The bodies were found on his property, AND I think lots of people saw a resemblance between BG's photo AND RL (thru his media interviews/photos) and they called LE. So, the combination of location of bodies, bad alibi, and tip-callers... it was best for LE to go ahead and take steps to rule him in OR out.

Weeks have passed.... there is no evidence, AND the only thing we know for sure is... optimism within LE is not high.

He had two months left of a 24 month probation. Maybe with just two months to go he thought no big deal and they wouldnt find out. Suddenly he's under national scrutiny and there were cameras at the dump so he was caught out. If he had just waited 2 more months he wouldn't now be serving 3 1/2 years. I do feel a bit sorry for him, though he doesn't deserve it . JMO.

 

[otto]

He had two months left of a 24 month probation. Maybe with just two months to go he thought no big deal and they wouldnt find out. Suddenly he's under national scrutiny and there were cameras at the dump so he was caught out. If he had just waited 2 more months he wouldn't now be serving 3 1/2 years. I do feel a bit sorry for him, though he doesn't deserve it . JMO.

I'm confident that if the bodies had been found on the other side of the creek on someone else's property, RL's name would never have been associated with these murders.

 

[Blythe]

13,000 tips, IIRC, I have to think (meaning MOO) someone has identified BG. There has been no corroborating evidence........yet. His name is in the files quite possibly.

"And his little dog's too" ....Not really, I am not sold on the puppy idea. It would have to be one well trained and reliable pet.

 

[katydid23]

Subpoenas are generally to businesses for such things as employee attendance records, phone records, bank records such as ATM withdrawals, etc., surveillance video, rentals such as car or hotel room rental records, and other kinds of records that would be of interest to LE such as cell tower records. I am sure there are other examples.

I had seen that they were looking very closely at the meat packing plant. I bet they served some subpoenas at that plant to get employee records, schedules, etc.

 

[Billy Mabou]

If that's what they intended to portray, then the image is virtually useless. Since the man in the photo could be anyone, then the only reason to call in a tip is if you've seen other suspicious behavior from a person you know/suspect. Otherwise, you would look at the picture that could be anyone and call in every man you've ever met who even vaguely resembled the build of BG. And, EVEN THAT is up for debate.

Just MOO, but I do think it's helpful to dissect the picture to come up with a few suspected conclusions.


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Unless you're someone who knows this person, IMO. Somebody familiar with BG could probably make the connection merely based on posture. I don't think that guarantees someone would turn him in, though.

 

[antechinusRAWR]

what do you think the reason was then that they searched his house with probable cause that they would find something connected to the double homicide. So, they certainly believed that he could be connected to the crime.

Anyone who looks remotely like BG & was near Delphi on the 13th "could" be connected to the crime.

RL is already connected & will be forever, purely because the girls were found on his property. But that doesn't necessarily mean he's criminally connected to the crime.

They've made it quite clear that they've served at least 13 warrants, so RL wasn't the only one they had probable cause to search. IIRC at one point they mentioned getting 300 tips & clearing 200 - presumably that left 100 uncleared.

We know from media that other local men have had their homes searched in relation to the murder investigation. We know from media that other local men have had to give DNA swabs & have had their ph's searched. LE also say they have a lie detector set up for use in this investigation. I don't recall any follow up statement saying the remaining 100 tips out of that 300 had been cleared? So based on LE's own words there *could* still be far more than one person left on "the list".

Despite this they've only gone to the trouble of issuing "not a suspect at this time" statements to quell suspicions & threats toward two of the men we already know about via media - RL being one of them.


It's been argued in these threads that LE couldn't get probable cause just because a bunch of people on the internet called in false tips based on their gut feelings/assumptions, but that most definitely does happen

http://www.pjstar.com/news/20170104/woman-accused-of-providing-false-tip-in-search-for-pekin-boy


In this particular case I've personally seen people on other sites claiming to have witnessed suspicious behaviour on the part of several different local men (FTR the vast majority of these claims did not sound credible). They then post their tip & ask that others call it in too "so that police realise it's important". The posts always end up being screenshot & shared on other sites where a whole new group of posters say "well there's no way to know if the original poster really called it in, so we should all call it in too" - & then it gets shared again & multiple people call it in again, & on it goes.

This was happening to people who haven't even been named by media but it happened far more to those who were. I have no doubt they received hundreds of tips like this on RL & as that article proves, there are people out there who aren't averse to lying to force police to investigate someone they "just know" is guilty.

In a highly publicised case like this the search warrant itself means nothing. It only becomes relevant after the fact if & when they announce they found something that implicates a known person.


We all agree LE have released very little information about anyone or anything, so the thing that confuses me most in discussions of this case is how those who are convinced RL is responsible &/or involved can be so sure that RL is LE's number 1 suspect & also be so sure LE don't have several other men on their list with far more serious criminal backgrounds, far more suspicious behaviour, & equally easy access to crime scene as RL?

(& for the record I'm not solidly for or against any person in this case. IMO there's just nowhere near enough to single any one person out when we know for a fact that LE are looking at others, but we have no clue what they have on any of them).

 

[Deleted member 278]

I'm confident that if the bodies had been found on the other side of the creek on someone else's property, RL's name would never have been associated with these murders.

If he hadn't been interviewed, yes. But, once his clothing and body type got out there, wham!

 

[Shiressleuth]

I remember we talked a bit about his phone. Was it an old flip phone or a newer I-phone type?

My guess would be an old flip phone. Not many people use those anymore and those who do may not want to spend the money since what they have works just fine, it's ease of use and reliability and cost of usage.

So, my question, and it's a dumb one but I really don't know is.....
do they ping like the knew ones?
Are they as traceable as the new ones?

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What if it is a pay-as-u-go phone? I.e. pre-pay, no contract, no address on record? Don't know about old phones pinging but as long as they have an IMEI number and a sim card then I think they would have to in order to work. MOO.
Eta. Thinking logically even old phones must ping the towers, otherwise they would not work. So my guess is yes they ping, but only traceable with a contract phone.

 

[otto]

If he hadn't been interviewed, yes. But, once his clothing and body type got out there, wham!

This is the original photo from police. This appears to be a stocky man in my opinion. The property owner does not appear to be a stocky man. Regarding clothing, my understanding is that hoodie, coat, and jeans are what many men in the Delphi area wear.

 

[Elley Mae]

“If we’re looking for third party data, if we’re looking for information from a company, or a business, that the business acquires in the course of its business, that might relate to an investigation, we send a subpoena,” said Ives. “If you’re looking for evidence that relates directly to proof of a crime and it’s in a realm of privacy, in a person’s home, in a person’s phone, in a person’s computer, on their person, some other situations, then you have to get a search warrant for that type of information, and we’ve gotten some search warrants but often those search warrants didn’t directly relate to the investigation of the killing of the two girls. They’re related to other matters in the course of this investigation. When so many people are being checked on, other things get found.”

That was true in the arrest of a local man known to investigators last weekend who is being held without bond on a probation violation for an alcohol-related offense.

Sheriffs and state probation officers have questioned registered sex offenders in several north central Indiana counties to determine their whereabouts on the day the girls were murdered and then confirmed those accounts with other interviews or polygraph examinations.

Posted march 14th
http://fox59.com/2017/03/14/prosecu...r-received-crucial-tip-due-to-scope-of-probe/

70 subpoenas and warrants (of which 15 were search warrants) IIRC. What would the subpoenas be for? Have we discussed them? Would they be, for instance, to order people to provide their whereabouts or to seize property (a phone or vehicle maybe) ?