IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #60

[Justice101]

following....

 

[Justice101]

I don't believe this was a kidnapping attempt. This was a sexual homocide. Had this been a kidnapping attempt he would have led them towards the area his vehicle was parked. Instead he led them into the middle of the woods. If he was able to direct them to the middle of the woods I see no reason why he wouldn't have been able to direct them to his vehicle. Had it been a kidnapping attempt gone wrong, I think one of the girls would have escaped or at least tried to escape and the bodies would have been found in different locations from one another. The fact they were found together leads me to believe they complied with what he wanted and went where he directed them.

They were teenage girls, I think they could have outrun him or at least gained a good deal of ground before he caught them and he wouldn't have been able to catch them both unless he shot one or both of them, which by all indications is not what happened. Had he wanted to abduct them I think he could have.

There was a road right below the bridge where he could have placed his vehicle. There was also the cemetery parking area very close. If he had tried an abduction and they took off running, I don't see how he could have caught them both. By the time he caught one and subdued or killed her, the other would have been gone. I think he likely would have fled as well once they did. opposed to chasing them both down, catching them each individually, killing them both separately, and then transporting two dead bodies all that way and across a creek in broad daylight. The logistics don't add up. Unfortunately had they run I think at least one of them would have survived.

Given the scene it makes much more sense they followed his orders. He directed them off the bridge, down the hill, and deeper into the woods across the creek where they were found. I'm sure LE knows if it was a kidnapping attempt based on the recording.

Ressler classified sexual murderers in two catagories. Organized and unorganized. The organized killer was in control of his actions. He planned the attacks out in detail. Where as the unorganized killer was not in control of his actions. Things were not well planned, he would come across a victim and his urges took over. Without knowing the details of these murders it's tough to say exactly what kind of classification BG would fall under. But given the circumstances we do know, that he murdered two girls and likely sexually assaulted one or both them in broad daylight in a very visible area, makes me think he was a disorganized killer at least in part. An organized killer likely would have abducted them from the scene and committed the assaults somewhere else. It was just blind luck that someone didn't see him doing this in the way he went about it. An unorganized killer would not be one to try and kidnap the girls. He would be unable to control himself from assaulting them right on the spot, which is what it appears he did.

Excellent post! Well thought out. THIS is the kind of post I come here to read!

 

[Raddude]

Sorry, as my posting has had been one of the last in previous thread 59, I want to repeat my question. What I´m dealing with is, wether or not possible screams of the girls at the creek may or may not been heard by hikers on the trail at the same time, as acoustic noise from the creek in general could perhaps not reach the higher up situated trail.

What do you think?

Thank you for answers.

I suspect sound would carry well along the path of the river however ambient noise around the hearer such as the flowing river itself could inhibit hearing them. IMO


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[KayCherry]

Sorry, as my posting has had been one of the last in previous thread 59, I want to repeat my question. What I´m dealing with is, wether or not possible screams of the girls at the creek may or may not been heard by hikers on the trail at the same time, as acoustic noise from the creek in general could perhaps not reach the higher up situated trail.

What do you think?



Thank you for answers.

I think a 1/4 mile is far, and have been in the woods a lot growing up and I don't think so.... MOO

 

[Jennifer17]

I think a 1/4 mile is far, and have been in the woods a lot growing up and I don't think so.... MOO

I think that screams would carry 1/4 mile in that forest at that time of year. Not when it is in leaf, but when the trees are bare, I think would carry.

 

[Oregonmama]

Any developments?

 

[Tulessa]

Any developments?

I was hoping for new developments. I've been back in the hospital, but these babies will never be forgotten.

 

[Confusion]

Sorry, as my posting has had been one of the last in previous thread 59, I want to repeat my question. What I´m dealing with is, wether or not possible screams of the girls at the creek may or may not been heard by hikers on the trail at the same time, as acoustic noise from the creek in general could perhaps not reach the higher up situated trail.

What do you think?

Thank you for answers.

I sometimes think that a lot of people overestimate how far 1/4 mile is, The average walking speed of humans is right around 3 miles per hour; if they were walking at 2 miles/hr because of the terrain, they would be that far in only 7.5 minutes. Walking at an average speed (3 mph) it would take 5 minutes. I know when I was a kid, we could yell to each other (or our parents could yell at/to us) from that distance or farther and usually be heard fairly easily (depending on traffic and other background noises) so I think there is a chance that someone screaming for help could be heard from that far or close to it. MOO

 

[RIP Meagan + Johnny]

I sometimes think that a lot of people overestimate how far 1/4 mile is, The average walking speed of humans is right around 3 miles per hour; if they were walking at 2 miles/hr because of the terrain, they would be that far in only 7.5 minutes. Walking at an average speed (3 mph) it would take 5 minutes. I know when I was a kid, we could yell to each other (or our parents could yell at/to us) from that distance or farther and usually be heard fairly easily (depending on traffic and other background noises) so I think there is a chance that someone screaming for help could be heard from that far or close to it. MOO

Helpful post!

JMO...
(This is to Sapere aude, who asked the original question)
The topography (being in the creek valley), wind speed and direction and the noise from the creek will factor into how well the sound would travel as well.
JMO.

 

[Burnt Toast]

I don't believe this was a kidnapping attempt. This was a sexual homocide. Had this been a kidnapping attempt he would have led them towards the area his vehicle was parked. Instead he led them into the middle of the woods. If he was able to direct them to the middle of the woods I see no reason why he wouldn't have been able to direct them to his vehicle. Had it been a kidnapping attempt gone wrong, I think one of the girls would have escaped or at least tried to escape and the bodies would have been found in different locations from one another. The fact they were found together leads me to believe they complied with what he wanted and went where he directed them.

They were teenage girls, I think they could have outrun him or at least gained a good deal of ground before he caught them and he wouldn't have been able to catch them both unless he shot one or both of them, which by all indications is not what happened. Had he wanted to abduct them I think he could have.

There was a road right below the bridge where he could have placed his vehicle. There was also the cemetery parking area very close. If he had tried an abduction and they took off running, I don't see how he could have caught them both. By the time he caught one and subdued or killed her, the other would have been gone. I think he likely would have fled as well once they did. opposed to chasing them both down, catching them each individually, killing them both separately, and then transporting two dead bodies all that way and across a creek in broad daylight. The logistics don't add up. Unfortunately had they run I think at least one of them would have survived.

Given the scene it makes much more sense they followed his orders. He directed them off the bridge, down the hill, and deeper into the woods across the creek where they were found. I'm sure LE knows if it was a kidnapping attempt based on the recording.

Ressler classified sexual murderers in two catagories. Organized and unorganized. The organized killer was in control of his actions. He planned the attacks out in detail. Where as the unorganized killer was not in control of his actions. Things were not well planned, he would come across a victim and his urges took over. Without knowing the details of these murders it's tough to say exactly what kind of classification BG would fall under. But given the circumstances we do know, that he murdered two girls and likely sexually assaulted one or both them in broad daylight in a very visible area, makes me think he was a disorganized killer at least in part. An organized killer likely would have abducted them from the scene and committed the assaults somewhere else. It was just blind luck that someone didn't see him doing this in the way he went about it. An unorganized killer would not be one to try and kidnap the girls. He would be unable to control himself from assaulting them right on the spot, which is what it appears he did.

we don't know that the crime was sexual in nature. i personally do not think it was. I think things escalated very quickly and that the killer was likely home by the time their ride arrived. i would surprised if he was not a local.

 

[Burnt Toast]

Sorry, as my posting has had been one of the last in previous thread 59, I want to repeat my question. What I´m dealing with is, wether or not possible screams of the girls at the creek may or may not been heard by hikers on the trail at the same time, as acoustic noise from the creek in general could perhaps not reach the higher up situated trail.

What do you think?

Thank you for answers.

i have wondered the same. hopefully a local can tell us.

 

[mtnlites]

Sorry, as my posting has had been one of the last in previous thread 59, I want to repeat my question. What I´m dealing with is, wether or not possible screams of the girls at the creek may or may not been heard by hikers on the trail at the same time, as acoustic noise from the creek in general could perhaps not reach the higher up situated trail.

What do you think?

Thank you for answers.

I realize your question wasn't answered on the last thread so I am glad you posted it again. It is an excellent question and would make for a good experiment. The conditions of the 13th would need to be recreated for the most accurate results: same wind speed, same water height and current speed, etc. While this hasn't officially been recreated it is something I would definitely like to know. If one of us stood on the bridge, or right off the bridge, and screamed, how close would other people in nearby proximity be to have to hear us. I would also like to see that recreated at the place where the bodies were found. Noise in the woods can go either way-it can either travel or it can be muffled, depending upon foliage, wind, and height of embankments.

We have woods behind our house. There is around 300 acres of national forest. There are some points where one can stand and be heard several acres away. There are other points, however, where you can stand and scream and not be heard more than 100 feet away because of the lay of the land.

 

[margarita25]

I realize your question wasn't answered on the last thread so I am glad you posted it again. It is an excellent question and would make for a good experiment. The conditions of the 13th would need to be recreated for the most accurate results: same wind speed, same water height and current speed, etc. While this hasn't officially been recreated it is something I would definitely like to know. If one of us stood on the bridge, or right off the bridge, and screamed, how close would other people in nearby proximity be to have to hear us. I would also like to see that recreated at the place where the bodies were found. Noise in the woods can go either way-it can either travel or it can be muffled, depending upon foliage, wind, and height of embankments.

We have woods behind our house. There is around 300 acres of national forest. There are some points where one can stand and be heard several acres away. There are other points, however, where you can stand and scream and not be heard more than 100 feet away because of the lay of the land.

(O/T, I just saw your signature and bumped Brooke's thread, thank you. Also, I think I'm going to modify my signature to better summarize the NOCO case, as yours does.)

 

[margarita25]

So, jumping off your posts here, (thanks for joining us from Austria, way cool btw), I suspect they were gagged or mouths covered with duct tape; IMO he likely had this as part of his kill kit. And of course, imo, verbally threatened that if they make any noise he'll kill them, perhaps threatending to harm the other one, etc. I've seen this before, Jessica Ridgeway for example, where they are told that if they comply they will be released. LIE. Another thought, the sound of the water possibly dampened any sounds.

 

[Crwhitlock]

we don't know that the crime was sexual in nature. i personally do not think it was. I think things escalated very quickly and that the killer was likely home by the time their ride arrived. i would surprised if he was not a local.

You don't think it was sexual? Why do you think he murdered them? Did they get into an argument that turned into a physical altercation and escalated into him murdering two 12 year old girls? Odds are astronomically small that this wasn't a sexual homocide. There is virtually no other motive possible.

 

[mtnlites]

(O/T, I just saw your signature and bumped Brooke's thread, thank you. Also, I think I'm going to modify my signature to better summarize the NOCO case, as yours does.)

Thank you. It seems to be a crapshoot as to which cases get national media coverage. I started researching more unknown cases a few months ago and have been trying to bring attention to them via Facebook. I am glad that "Disappeared" is starting to do more obscure cases as well. Brooke was a beautiful teenager that had just graduated from high school the week before she disappeared. It has completely shaken our town and nobody has really recovered yet.

 

[iscaremyself]

live stream of the Stone memorial bench in delphi
http://cbs4indy.com/2017/05/25/second-memorial-bench-dedicated-to-both-flora-and-delphi-victims/

 

[whiskers]

You don't think it was sexual? Why do you think he murdered them? Did they get into an argument that turned into a physical altercation and escalated into him murdering two 12 year old girls? Odds are astronomically small that this wasn't a sexual homocide. There is virtually no other motive possible.

Unless it was a revenge killing. Payback for someone in either families.

Or perhaps someone needed them dead for a reason and BG offered to help out. A hit man of sorts.

 

[Wondergirl]

I don't have the ability to go to the bridge - but - this seemed an extremely relevant observation from a cold case investigator that I was reading about tonight.

[FONT=&amp]Studying human behavior and listening more than talking is the best way to interpret verbal and non-verbal cues from a suspect. I knew of a veteran detective who would sit silent with suspects for long periods of time before the suspect would begin talking, unprovoked. The detective did this with me and I fell for it. I couldn’t take the silence and it made me talk. It is very, very effective technique in which I incorporate into my interviews.

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Revisit the crime scene, no matter what. One of the most shocking aspects of my foray into cold case investigations came from a re-visit. You can gauge nothing from photographs. I stared at crime scene photographs, video and driven by the house hundreds of times. However I never went in the house. Big mistake. During my investigation into the Gail Matthews murders, I was constantly bombarded about the next door neighbor being involved. This was because people couldn’t understand how she didn’t hear any the victims screaming or struggling for their lives. So, I revisited the scene of this heinous crime 18 years after the fact.
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
I was a gasp of how incredibly small the entire domicile was especially the bedroom where the bodies were found. I could never get the correct feel for what those victims went through until I was in the very same room their last breathes were taken. I was floored, shocked and frightened by the results. They had nowhere to run. They were killed in a room that was basically the size of a large closet. I never got the feeling of the room size by those pictures or videos, I had to go and stand there for myself.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]I stood in the neighbor’s bedroom where she stated she was during the time I believed the murders took place. I had another detective stand in the room where the murders took place and where the bodies were recovered. I began to scream and yell and thrash about. After a few minutes the detective in the other room called me and asked if I had started. I told him I had been yelling and screaming for a minute or so. He heard nothing. Myth debunked. The other detective was now a believer as well. It is those small details that have to be done in order to confirm or move on to another suspect.[/FONT]

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140905172257-226605600-how-to-investigate-a-cold-case

 

[Trino]

Unless it was a revenge killing. Payback for someone in either families.

Or perhaps someone needed them dead for a reason and BG offered to help out. A hit man of sorts.

Revenge or payback? Seems any theory is possible right now. This probably leads to the druggies.

In the background looms the rumor that drugs were involved with BG, but if BG carried money or drugs, I think he would have wanted to get out of the area ASAP, not taking time bothering with the girls or a sexual assault. He wouldn't have wanted to cross the creek, getting everything wet. AND, if he thought the girls took his photo, I think he would have grabbed the phone and hurled it off the bridge. Seems that BG didn't even realize L had her cell. Not following a BG drug runner connection.

IMO the assault and killing were premeditated. No idea if they were specifically for A&L or the next available hiker. Interesting that he chose two people. Interesting that he chose younger girls. No idea the motive. I'm just untangling theories and trying to put one together like we all are.