IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #65

[JazzTune]

There is a bend in the creek right below the location of the bodies, no trails are near and the area of crossing is not visible from the bridge.

Was it soundproof?

Also were they teleported to that area? Or did they walk?

If they did indeed walk to the area, then they were potentially visible to other sets of eyes for quite awhile before they reached that point.

If it happened the way you say, then the killer just got really lucky.

Do you believe the killer was willing to take that chance on LUCK being his guaranteed partner?

Just my opinion, as always.

 

[Jethro4WS]

There is a bend in the creek right below the location of the bodies, no trails are near and the area of crossing is not visible from the bridge.

Here is a frame taken from a video by WXIN on the Thursday after the murders (Feb 16th). Where this frame was taken is at a point where the path from the cemetery reaches the ridge line. The path continues down the steep slope in the direction of the view of this frame. You can also see a worn path that crosses this one on both the right and left sides of this image closer to the camera. On the right it runs just in front of the tree. This path will ultimately come out on the trail at the north end of the bridge about 40 feet from it (or less). On the left you can see it go up and wind around out of view. That path to the left continues on and you will end up at the intersection with the north/south path where the photo with RL's dog was taken.

 

[Spiritecho]

It is highly likely that the girls were found right where the arrow in this image is pointing.

That location is determined from this video posted to twitter by a reporter which shows where family placed flowers. I can't get into why I think that is exactly the spot because it would require me to discuss information that can only be discussed on the scanner thread.

[video=twitter;833751458885537793]https://twitter.com/VanwykWTHR/status/833751458885537793[/video]

In the still image, where the man in blue is standing, is the bridge on his right or left? is the cemetery and/or trail behind the photographer?

 

[Jethro4WS]

I've been trying to find this RG video where I saw the private road and gate but he has so many. Does anyone remember this one and what it was called? If I can't find it it will have to stay MOO and anyway, there is no proof it was padlocked that day or that BG did not have a key. There is a pic of police cars parked on this road opposite the CS after the girls were found so it wasn't locked then or LE had 'unlocked' it.

Is that one of the ones where he was over by the cemetery? I thought that was his entire area of focus. Because there is a locked gate on the property east of the cemetery - the field you see there in the helicopter video. There is a gate back there along the tree line that was quite possibly locked.

I don't recall any RG videos on the south side of anything so maybe I missed it.

 

[Justice101]

It is highly likely that the girls were found right where the arrow in this image is pointing.

That location is determined from this video posted to twitter by a reporter which shows where family placed flowers. I can't get into why I think that is exactly the spot because it would require me to discuss information that can only be discussed on the scanner thread.

[video=twitter;833751458885537793]https://twitter.com/VanwykWTHR/status/833751458885537793[/video]

As best as I can see the topography of this photo (based on the lean of only the base of the trees), it looks like that tree where the arrow is shown, is actually the downside of a hump that might have partially blocked anyone from the river or the south side of the river from seeing either the act in progress... or eventually the body. This makes me think he caught them and killed them and dragged them far enough so laying down they couldn't;t be seen from the river... or easily from the cemetary

 

[Jethro4WS]

Thanks Shiressleuth! I have finally got a little one to go to sleep, so hopefully will have a few minutes to put my thoughts down.

After I read your earlier post about the RG video, I immediately went searching for it. Pretty sure this is the one.

[video=youtube;99y5dzuhnMA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99y5dzuhnMA[/video]

It shows him driving down that road that becomes the private road on the south end side of the Monon High Bridge.

He ends the video with a view of the gate, and the statement that it's private property that requires permission to enter.

However, the gate is definitely open in the video. The road is clearly visible and unobstructed.

I would bet the gate is typically open the majority of the time, especially during the day hours when the road would be used by the residents.

I can't imagine one person going outside repeatedly to open and shut the gate multiple times during the day.

I believe too that the killer scouted all of this out ahead of time. He noticed whether the gate was ever shut, and if so, what the typical patterns were of the residents.

Who was home, who was gone, etc.

I DO appreciate your mention of the video. It has not changed my opinion though.

I think the killer figured out all his moves ahead of time, including getting around this one.

Thanks again!

Okay. The video was uploaded in May and likely taken shortly before upload. By that time many fences and gates had gone up. Now there are all kinds of people showing up in Delphi - "crime tourists" if you will that try to get to the bridge area so I expect they have to lock that up now. I doubt the gate was closed all that much, let alone locked prior to all of this happening in Delphi. There are some things known about that road and access in the morning on the 14th but that involves information from the scanner thread that can't be discussed here.

 

[htiff]

I'm satisfied that LE has the journey from the bridge to their bodies well in hand. I have to imagine once the girls were found, LE combed every possible route, and have looked for disturbance in the ground and brush. That would be standard investigatory procedure--they just haven't given all the details to the public, probably because this would likely be important hold-back info, to guard against a false confession.

But the trail Abigail and Libby were on is very short and at the far end of the park--1.5 miles.

There are two logical entrances and parking locations at the time of the murders: One is at State Road 25 (see below) and the other where Abigail and Libby were most likely dropped off, was at 300 North (which is now closed).

http://www.newsbug.info/monticello_...cle_9f53101a-199f-11e7-b5f4-a3a21ffea83d.html

The question is, did the killer happen on that stretch of trail, but started at another point in the park? Or did he pick that one trail for a reason? I'm following Law Enforcement's information, that no vehicle was actually involved in the abduction, but did the killer have a car parked somewhere he could get to easily and escape by way of--say at the lot near State Road 25?

 

[Justice101]

Here is a frame taken from a video by WXIN on the Thursday after the murders (Feb 16th). Where this frame was taken is at a point where the path from the cemetery reaches the ridge line. The path continues down the steep slope in the direction of the view of this frame. You can also see a worn path that crosses this one on both the right and left sides of this image closer to the camera. On the right it runs just in front of the tree. This path will ultimately come out on the trail at the north end of the bridge about 40 feet from it (or less). On the left you can see it go up and wind around out of view. That path to the left continues on and you will end up at the intersection with the north/south path where the photo with RL's dog was taken.

That was my original thought as to the route taken by them.. but having thought thru this quite a bit more, it is more likely that the girls ran across the creek from the other side and he caught one of them and threatened and had the other one come back where he got her too.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Thanks Shiressleuth! I have finally got a little one to go to sleep, so hopefully will have a few minutes to put my thoughts down.

After I read your earlier post about the RG video, I immediately went searching for it. Pretty sure this is the one.

[video=youtube;99y5dzuhnMA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99y5dzuhnMA[/video]

It shows him driving down that road that becomes the private road on the south end side of the Monon High Bridge.

He ends the video with a view of the gate, and the statement that it's private property that requires permission to enter.

However, the gate is definitely open in the video. The road is clearly visible and unobstructed.

I would bet the gate is typically open the majority of the time, especially during the day hours when the road would be used by the residents.

I can't imagine one person going outside repeatedly to open and shut the gate multiple times during the day.

I believe too that the killer scouted all of this out ahead of time. He noticed whether the gate was ever shut, and if so, what the typical patterns were of the residents.

Who was home, who was gone, etc.

I DO appreciate your mention of the video. It has not changed my opinion though.

I think the killer figured out all his moves ahead of time, including getting around this one.

Thanks again!

There's another called "the farm gate that road goes to" which shows the gate closed and padlocked. I am guessing it is locked when they are away for long periods. With the murder being in February I would guess the gate was padlocked. I don't think that would stop someone like BG if he knew the occupants were absent so I agree with you. It is interesting to see these videos to help get the lay of the land.

 

[Jethro4WS]

RBBM

JMO

At least one of the properties was owned by a snowbird. I thought there were 3-4 homes on that private road past the gate.

I also thought the "vehicle on the road" was debunked when the "person/face under the bridge" was debunked. Maybe I was dreaming or completely missed something.

There is a white vehicle that is seen in the helicopter video (at the 12:03 mark) at the house at the end of the road that goes under the SE end of the bridge. Can't tell if it is LE or not.

 

[Justice101]

Yeah. You nailed it.

Those ideas are so much more clever than something like a "car" to take them to and from the killing grounds.

Better than something like a hunter's "deer sled" (as mentioned by DeDee as a possibility) to help transport them to where they were found.

I know your aim is over the top, and I don't mean to have an attitude about it.

Unfortunately though, these poor girls had the misfortune of encountering just your average, run-of-the-mill, very evil killer...

LOVE the HUMOR here... we needed a dose of that. thanks!

 

[JazzTune]

With all due respect, this is not a solid, well thought out theory. It has a murderer taking the girls away and then carrying their dead bodies, one at a time, through some precarious terrain next to inhabited homes to almost the same area from which they were taken and which was the center of attention in the search. This would assume that no one was on the lookout for vehicles driving on the roadways near the bridge which means it assumes that LE is stupid, they all went home after the preliminary search and no one had the night shift.

It also ignores the footprints on the bank which searchers found and ignores LE telling us that the girls crossed the creek.

We really have to dispose of theories that are founded in guesses and keep to what we know as truths.

The audio of the events captured more than we are privy to and if there was a HINT of evidence that a vehicle was used, LE would have been shouting it from the rooftops. They didn't. They said the girls crossed the creek, alive.

How do we know they were alive when they crossed the creek? Because LE described the terrain they would have had to maneuver.

With all due respect, I disagree. Big surprise, huh.

First of all, I believe this was planned for months ahead. The killer got a huge head start. He figured out exactly how he was going to carry all this out.

Just because it might not make sense to US doesn't mean one thing. I contend that there were NO fly-by-the-seat-of-his-pants decisions that day. Not one.

He already checked out the surroundings. He knew how he was going to carry it all out. Imo, he had a scanner, listening closely to everything LE was doing that night.

He knew how to avoid all the traps. I believe he had an accomplice who helped bring the girls to where they were found. DeDee has mentioned a hunter's 'deer sled' which is very plausible.

The killer wasn't abiding by any of OUR rules or concerns. He was two steps ahead the whole time, and had been for months.

I have no doubt he is laughing at everyone right now. But someday I truly believe WE will have the last laugh.

He's going to screw up eventually.

Also, for the umpteenth time, (and please don't take anything I say personally) I do NOT believe LE is saying the girls crossed the creek. I also do not believe that it bothers them one bit to have people think they DID say that.

It's unclear, and again, there may be a reason known only to LE.

As for the audio by LE of the kidnapping, it is my belief that the killer took Libby's phone when he put her in his trunk. If he did, I don't believe he kept the audio going.

That could explain why LE would have no absolute knowledge of a vehicle involved.

Again, this is just my opinion. Yours is different and yours may be correct. So please don't take offense.

I know my attitude is 'showing' at times, but it is more a reflection of my frustration with this killer still being free, than with any individual poster.

I don't mean to take out that frustration on others..

So please keep posting, and I will keep reading. I have learned a lot from your posts...

 

[Jethro4WS]

This photo was taken right in front of the CS while standing on the bank... (I believe by that man who is making the debunking videos took this photograph.) It shows a relatively low bank across the river. It also shows the SE end of the bridge through the trees and, as you can see, it's not a terribly long walk from the bridge to the CS.

This appears to be a frame grab from a video posted by Rich Van Wyck on twitter.

[video=twitter;832259967658889217]https://twitter.com/VanwykWTHR/status/832259967658889217[/video]

It also shows quite a bit of tree debris to navigate and that bank is likely unstable as evidenced by the slope caused by collapse seen in the middle far right. Something to keep in mind when trying to estimate time to traverse the area. Especially if you have two girls that might be more worried about a gun (if there was one) than where they are walking. The important thing is to factor in those kinds of things into the timing. It wasn't a walk in the park. It very likely took longer than people think if this is how they got there.

 

[Jethro4WS]

In the still image, where the man in blue is standing, is the bridge on his right or left? is the cemetery and/or trail behind the photographer?

The bridge is to the diagonally right (SW and SSW) of the man in blue since the bridge is long there are many angles directionally from where he is to where any part of the bridge is. The cemetery would be behind and to the right of the photographer (NNW) was standing when this image was taken.

 

[pepper 34]

It's bothering me that nobody heard anything.


I can't wrap my head around one aspect of this crime. We don't know COD. We don't know if any weapons at all were involved. We don't know if there was a vehicle used. We don't know if CS is in fact the actual CS or just a disposal site.

Regardless of all of that, whether we knew it or not, one thing I just can't come to terms with is no one hearing anything. Seeing anything we can come up with reasons as to why or why not anything would have been seen. But hearing? Is that spot so isolated that someone screaming for their life would no be heard? How do you keep 2 teenage girls from making a single peep? I don't mean to be graphic here I really don't, but someone had to die first didn't they? It's horrible to think about and makes me sick and i feel terrible for even thinking it.

How do you kill someone in front of another person and they don't then start to scream. Or you yourself start to scream realizing what is coming. What sort of control must you have. This whole crime just, smells funny. Smells seasoned. Practiced. Ugh.

I have my theories, but they are just that. Pure speculation. I just have a hard time with understanding a lot about this case, and it could very well be because we just don't know. But seeing these pictures and with what we do know about time frames...perhaps I need a break from this case. My mind is thoroughly sore from trying to understand.


Moo.

Every time I think along these lines, I get physically nauseous and actually feel my eyes burn and then I cry. I feel empathy can be a curse sometimes when it hurts this badly. I've actually comforted myself by imagining that, within moments, from behind, BG stuck them both on the head and that neither girl was aware of their fate. I can't allow myself to think any other way or it is just too painful. I hate that so often what is good and wonderful in people can be destroyed by what is so sick and evil in other people. AW knitting caps for newborns at the hospital... LG leaving stick-it notes of love and appreciation for those people she felt close to... both of them accomplishing, contributing, plans for the future... happy, full of hope and with everything to live for until this weasel comes along with his poisoned thoughts and evil intentions and, most likely finds pleasure in destroying them. I don't even want to know what he thinks of and I don't care what happened to him in his life... and I don't EVER want to hear the rest of that recording LG made. I can understand needing a break from this case.

 

[Jethro4WS]

As best as I can see the topography of this photo (based on the lean of only the base of the trees), it looks like that tree where the arrow is shown, is actually the downside of a hump that might have partially blocked anyone from the river or the south side of the river from seeing either the act in progress... or eventually the body. This makes me think he caught them and killed them and dragged them far enough so laying down they couldn't;t be seen from the river... or easily from the cemetary

Yes. The clearer area seen in the upper right of the image near the creek is the area that would have to be walked through if you follow the path GH suggests BG and the girls went. That area as you would come out of the creek on the north side and for some 30 to 40 feet (since it would be a more diagonal walk then a straight one if I recall his path) would provide the best chance of anyone who could have been there of seeing them walking to where the kill happened per that theory. Unfortunately no one was there or if they were they didn't see them. But that would have been the best chance of seeing anything from anywhere else but along the ridge line on the north side.

 

[Shiressleuth]

My post explaining upstream and downstream has vanished! Is this sleuthable?

:laughing:

 

[mtnlites]

It's bothering me that nobody heard anything.


I can't wrap my head around one aspect of this crime. We don't know COD. We don't know if any weapons at all were involved. We don't know if there was a vehicle used. We don't know if CS is in fact the actual CS or just a disposal site.

Regardless of all of that, whether we knew it or not, one thing I just can't come to terms with is no one hearing anything. Seeing anything we can come up with reasons as to why or why not anything would have been seen. But hearing? Is that spot so isolated that someone screaming for their life would no be heard? How do you keep 2 teenage girls from making a single peep? I don't mean to be graphic here I really don't, but someone had to die first didn't they? It's horrible to think about and makes me sick and i feel terrible for even thinking it.

How do you kill someone in front of another person and they don't then start to scream. Or you yourself start to scream realizing what is coming. What sort of control must you have. This whole crime just, smells funny. Smells seasoned. Practiced. Ugh.

I have my theories, but they are just that. Pure speculation. I just have a hard time with understanding a lot about this case, and it could very well be because we just don't know. But seeing these pictures and with what we do know about time frames...perhaps I need a break from this case. My mind is thoroughly sore from trying to understand.


Moo.

Re: killing someone without the other screaming.

My theory: He could have been holding one of the girls with one arm and dragging her along while making the other walk ahead of them. With his free hand, he could have held a gun pointing forward. When they reached the crime scene, he could have killed the girl in his arm (stabbed, broken neck, slit throat, etc) while the other kept walking. He then could have dropped the one he was holding and moved forward, all before the one in front even knew what was happening.

My point being, there could have been an element of surprise. It could have all happened so quickly that there wasn't enough time to react. The girls might not have screamed because, in their youth, they still weren't quite believing that anything TRULY bad was going to happen. Perhaps they thought they could outrun him, talk their way out of it, etc. It's the only way I can explain the lack of noise.

And apologies to the graphic example. I hated writing that, but I was trying to think of a plausible explanation.

 

[JazzTune]

RBBM

JMO

At least one of the properties was owned by a snowbird. I thought there were 3-4 homes on that private road past the gate.

I also thought the "vehicle on the road" was debunked when the "person/face under the bridge" was debunked. Maybe I was dreaming or completely missed something.

That 'vehicle' I think you're referring to was one visualized by several posters directly under the bridge. That idea was questioned by many who believed it was part of the general terrain. There was no road there.

The vehicle I'm referring to would have been parked off the south end of the bridge on that private access road. Totally different.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Is that one of the ones where he was over by the cemetery? I thought that was his entire area of focus. Because there is a locked gate on the property east of the cemetery - the field you see there in the helicopter video. There is a gate back there along the tree line that was quite possibly locked.

I don't recall any RG videos on the south side of anything so maybe I missed it.

I have found them now thanks. There were three altogether of the south end approach road ending at the locked gate that is sometimes open.