IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #3

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I have been doing some research on prison in Puerto Rico, definitely not where I would want to go to prison.
Sure you're right !
I personally don't care if he doesn't get to drink his booze and hates the food there.
He knew that window was open. :mad:

Maybe don't dangle or hold a baby out a window, then ?

It's bizarre how the Wiegand family want this to be all about poor G-pa and how the PR authorities have treated him.

And other than a strangely worded obituary, not a peep about justice for Chloe. :(
 
It's doubtful that Chloe's parents are worried about him surviving in a 3 year sentence; he's 51 and not frail.
It's more likely that in that time he may "talk".
That could be catastrophic.

They have multiple reasons to worry about him not surviving 3 years in prison. IMO I can think of a lot of reasons that if this particular man served 3 years in prison, he wouldn't make it, based on all the months I've been following this case but that's my opinion. I don't think there's some diabolical plot going on here on the part of the family members. I don't think the lawsuit is really about money. In their shoes I might file a lawsuit if my child died on a cruise. They filed it right away but will they drop it? It remains to be seen. Maybe the grandfather will serve a short sentence rather than 3 years, or maybe there will be a suspended sentence, if he gets convicted. The prosecutors are going by the evidence. I think their case is strong and he will have to take responsibility one way or another. Maybe this will stop making the news once the trial or plea is over. I hope so.

Adding this: They filed it right away out of grief and shock, that's what I mean about being in their shoes. They were being advised by Winkleman. It wasn't a time when they could be expected to be objective. Let's wait and see if they stay with the lawsuit after the proceedings.
 
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I would guess Grandmom is younger... so probably still working. Women in their 50's can take care of themselves... many do not need a man to do it :)
I did read in a MSM article (can't find the link at the moment) that SA is actually about a decade younger than his wife. Not that it makes any difference, just sayin'.
 
I believe it is the norm. Windows that open are placed higher, for safety reasons. Then, a rail is placed in front of the window to keep adults from leaning over into the opening or easily going through the open window. It's exactly the system that is used for balconies, canyons and other high places. Handrails are there so that people can grasp them (some people experience vertigo when they see that they are up high) and so that people can have a clear boundary of where they are to stand.

This is equivalent to the people who sit their kids on guardrail tops and guard walls at Grand Canyon (or other high places). Most people wouldn't hold a toddler in their arms right at the unguarded edge of Grand Canyon, and most people do not sit their kids atop Grand Canyon guard rails, either (but some do and some allow their children to play on the guard rails and guard walls). It is so nervewracking to watch. I watched a family allow their 5 year to walk atop the low barrier (made of rocks) on Bright Angel Trail. The drop beyond was only about 100 feet, and of course, at GC, that looks like a "short" drop. It would likely be fatal.

Many of my (college) students believe that it is easy to survive a 20-30 foot fall (so they think it's fun to dive off second or third story balconies or windows into swimming pools). In fact, even a 5-6 foot fall head first onto a hard surface can be fatal and if it is not fatal, it can result in very severe injuries. We live in a culture where people post youtubes of very risky (and often painful) behaviors and it's intended to be humorous. Everything is fun, until it's not.

I do think that Anello wanted to be the "fun grandparent" and loved to pick up Chloe and hold her such that her head was at least as high as his (whereas, there's much to be said for adults lowering themselves to the toddler's level, because risk assessment takes on new meanings when we look at the world from 3 feet off the ground). Had Anello done this (knelt while Chloe explored the window area from the safety of the floor), he'd have looked up and seen that the window was open. Even the slowest or most distracted of minds would surely have seen that the lower windows don't open for a reason and that the handrail exists for a reason.

I know it's harder for bigger, older people to squat or kneel easily (but we see him do it in that picture with the dog) and it should be ingrained in any child-carer that a kid's world is meant to be explored from the POV of a kid. That's the very basic premise of childproofing (you go into a new hotel room, you look at the outlets from the POV of the baby/toddler, you look at power cords and window blind cords from the child's POV, you look at how balconies are structured and how windows open from a kid's POV. I believe it's reasonable to expect adult carers to do this.

But people on vacation, in particular, tend to abandon common sense. The child who fell at Grand Canyon was being "watched" by her parents (and had just been sternly told not to go near the edge). But she was a kid, and her reaction was to run right toward the edge. In that case, the parents should have been in physical control of their 4 year old (holding hands or using a stroller), not merely using verbal commands. My second child was such a stroller escape artist that GC was off the table and in fact, I worried when she went there as an adult (she's still distractible, but as she had her own child with her, lo and behold, she was super cautious).
Good post. Only thing is some older people literally can't get up from squatting. Depends on if they have arthritis...
 
They have multiple reasons to worry about him not surviving 3 years in prison. IMO I can think of a lot of reasons that if this particular man served 3 years in prison, he wouldn't make it, based on all the months I've been following this case but that's my opinion. I don't think there's some diabolical plot going on here on the part of the family members. I don't think the lawsuit is really about money. In their shoes I might file a lawsuit if my child died on a cruise. They filed it right away but will they drop it? It remains to be seen. Maybe the grandfather will serve a short sentence rather than 3 years, or maybe there will be a suspended sentence, if he gets convicted. The prosecutors are going by the evidence. I think their case is strong and he will have to take responsibility one way or another. Maybe this will stop making the news once the trial or plea is over. I hope so.
Probation? Since he's not a danger to society*...but in Puerto Rico?
*rapists have got less
 
They have multiple reasons to worry about him not surviving 3 years in prison. IMO I can think of a lot of reasons that if this particular man served 3 years in prison, he wouldn't make it, based on all the months I've been following this case but that's my opinion. I don't think there's some diabolical plot going on here on the part of the family members. I don't think the lawsuit is really about money. In their shoes I might file a lawsuit if my child died on a cruise. They filed it right away but will they drop it? It remains to be seen. Maybe the grandfather will serve a short sentence rather than 3 years, or maybe there will be a suspended sentence, if he gets convicted. The prosecutors are going by the evidence. I think their case is strong and he will have to take responsibility one way or another. Maybe this will stop making the news once the trial or plea is over. I hope so.

Adding this: They filed it right away out of grief and shock, that's what I mean about being in their shoes. They were being advised by Winkleman. It wasn't a time when they could be expected to be objective. Let's wait and see if they stay with the lawsuit after the proceedings.
bbm

You may be right.
This response is not directed at you. :)
I appreciate your input and thoughts.

The family has behaved oddly.
I keep thinking I'll see a comment saying that the family has acted normally considering the terrible circumstances.
Not very many at all ; and I've been looking around at the msm comments and on the RCCL online forum.
Most are appalled at the families' support of gramps.
So it begs the question : Why are they so insistent that he is innocent and that the ship is at fault ?

Re. the bolded : We don't know if that's why they filed their lawsuit.
And they had to have contacted MW, imo.
He most likely did not contact them first.

That's why this feels so hinky.
Who is thinking "We have to sue ! We want our payout !!!" -- moments after their child is killed by G-pa's negligence or whatever it was ?
One would assume both parents are of sound intellect.
They have to know this isn't RCCL's fault.

2nd bolded : What are your thoughts if they continue their unwarranted attack (i.e. lawsuit) on RCCL after the court proceedings -- and possible incarceration of the step grandfather ?
Tia.
 
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Good post. Only thing is some older people literally can't get up from squatting. Depends on if they have arthritis...

Yes, I realize this. That in fact is the point. And it's not just arthritis, it's general fitness and body weight. My point is that if a person is not active enough to squat (and get back up fairly quicky), they cannot manage a toddler in a large, unchildproofed setting.

My own ability to jump up from a squatting or kneeling position is not what it used to be. I have really worked on it, but would never (for example) take my granddaughters to the beach without a more able adult with me. Even sitting near the lifeguard doesn't do it for me, as I've watched beach incidents all my life. This is true even though the kids are now older than Chloe.

The point is that a caretaking adult has to be prepared for a kid to run, to climb things quickly, etc. It doesn't matter why. And the person doesn't have to be old, but they need to be able to view the world from the child's point of view (it's also better for bonding and child development, but that's another topic).
 
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Yes, I realize this. That in fact is the point. And it's not just arthritis, it's general fitness and body weight. My point is that if a person is not active enough to squat (and get back up fairly quicky), they cannot manage a toddler in a large, unchildproofed setting.

My own ability to jump up from a squatting or kneeling position is not what it used to be. I have really worked on it, but would never (for example) take my granddaughters to the beach without a more able adult with me. Even sitting near the lifeguard doesn't do it for me, as I've watched beach incidents all my life. This is true even though the kids are now older than Chloe.

The point is that a caretaking adult has to be prepared for a kid to run, to climb things quickly, etc. It doesn't matter why. And the person doesn't have to be old, but they need to be able to view the world from the child's point of view (it's also better for bonding and child development, but that's another topic).
It was ultimately up to the parents to make sure whoever walked off with Chloe while they were otherwise engaged was CAPABLE, RESPONSIBLE, and all around "with it" to manage her in their absence. JMOO
 
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Yes, I realize this. That in fact is the point. And it's not just arthritis, it's general fitness and body weight. My point is that if a person is not active enough to squat (and get back up fairly quicky), they cannot manage a toddler in a large, unchildproofed setting.

My own ability to jump up from a squatting or kneeling position is not what it used to be. I have really worked on it, but would never (for example) take my granddaughters to the beach without a more able adult with me. Even sitting near the lifeguard doesn't do it for me, as I've watched beach incidents all my life. This is true even though the kids are now older than Chloe.

The point is that a caretaking adult has to be prepared for a kid to run, to climb things quickly, etc. It doesn't matter why. And the person doesn't have to be old, but they need to be able to view the world from the child's point of view (it's also better for bonding and child development, but that's another topic).
I can't argue any of that. Or maybe I can. :)
Dr Phil says grandparents are the safest babysitters. But I tend to agree they're not always physically fit. But even as a young adult I had to watch my kids WITH a broken leg. Long story there.
And I have seen young parents chase kids in stores and even that's tough for them. All this to say (and you know) it's not a piece of cake watching kids.
Add on: But I've come to realize this is out of the norm for someone to do...lifting a child up to a ship's window.
 
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They have multiple reasons to worry about him not surviving 3 years in prison. IMO I can think of a lot of reasons that if this particular man served 3 years in prison, he wouldn't make it, based on all the months I've been following this case but that's my opinion. I don't think there's some diabolical plot going on here on the part of the family members. I don't think the lawsuit is really about money. In their shoes I might file a lawsuit if my child died on a cruise. They filed it right away but will they drop it? It remains to be seen. Maybe the grandfather will serve a short sentence rather than 3 years, or maybe there will be a suspended sentence, if he gets convicted. The prosecutors are going by the evidence. I think their case is strong and he will have to take responsibility one way or another. Maybe this will stop making the news once the trial or plea is over. I hope so.

Adding this: They filed it right away out of grief and shock, that's what I mean about being in their shoes. They were being advised by Winkleman. It wasn't a time when they could be expected to be objective. Let's wait and see if they stay with the lawsuit after the proceedings.

Actually the lawsuit hasn't been filed. What they did was immediately threaten a lawsuit, but so far that hasn't resulted in any legal filings by the parents. I'm very curious when/if they'll file and what it will say.
 
bbm

No, it won't bring Chloe back.
But they would be absolutely right to blame him; and it's damned weird that they are not.
This wasn't the cruise line's fault.

Forgiveness is important.
But forgiveness doesn't mean a pardon for someone's negligent or outright criminal act.
A person can be forgiven yet still needs to face responsibility for their act !
What has bothered me from the beginning is how quickly the parents hired a lawyer and threatened to sue the cruise line. Apparently they were too distraught to speak to the PR authorities, yet they weren't too distraught to hire a lawyer? Instead of waiting to find out exactly what happened? Some posters have suggested that MW sought them out, yet so-called "ambulance chasing" is forbidden by the Bar Association's code of ethics. That makes me wonder whether someone in the family went looking for a lawyer who specializes in suing cruise lines, within a few hours of the baby's death.
 
Actually the lawsuit hasn't been filed. What they did was immediately threaten a lawsuit, but so far that hasn't resulted in any legal filings by the parents. I'm very curious when/if they'll file and what it will say.
Thank you I have yet to find evidence of any actual lawsuit filed in this matter ... why not? And yet the discussion of the lawsuit continues because their attorney perpetuates it - IMO
 
What has bothered me from the beginning is how quickly the parents hired a lawyer and threatened to sue the cruise line. Apparently they were too distraught to speak to the PR authorities, yet they weren't too distraught to hire a lawyer? Instead of waiting to find out exactly what happened? Some posters have suggested that MW sought them out, yet so-called "ambulance chasing" is forbidden by the Bar Association's code of ethics. That makes me wonder whether someone in the family went looking for a lawyer who specializes in suing cruise lines, within a few hours of the baby's death.
Posted upthread - is the answer to this - family friends:associates found the law firm IMO
 
What has bothered me from the beginning is how quickly the parents hired a lawyer and threatened to sue the cruise line. Apparently they were too distraught to speak to the PR authorities, yet they weren't too distraught to hire a lawyer? Instead of waiting to find out exactly what happened? Some posters have suggested that MW sought them out, yet so-called "ambulance chasing" is forbidden by the Bar Association's code of ethics. That makes me wonder whether someone in the family went looking for a lawyer who specializes in suing cruise lines, within a few hours of the baby's death.

Maybe because this included potential criminal charges, they wanted to talk to an attorney who was familiar with cruise accidents.
 
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