IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand

[they'll get you]

How is this the cruise line's fault? How would they ever imagine that an adult would prop an 18 month old child up against an open window sill, 150 feet above a concrete deck?

I think they were taking full advantage of the booze package as many do.
Because booze is free they go get their money’s worth.
The more I read the more I believe that he was comfortably numb.

 

[they'll get you]

As I was running errands yesterday I began noticing all the places where parents could seat children where they could fall to their death, or at least receive serious injury.

County courthouse: a three story building, open in the middle with public offices on all three floors. You can look over a 4 foot tall wall from the 3rd floor to see the marble floor on the ground level. The wall is flat on top, about a foot wide, a perfect place to seat a child to look down at the pretty marble floor below! No warning sign.

A 6 story office building with open stairways. Kind of interesting to look over the railing to see 6 floors down. No warning signs.

Drove past 6 multi-story downtown hotels with outdoor balconies on all floors. I’ve stayed in 3 of them, no warning signs on balconies.


The world is not a child-safe padded room. Parents need to take reasonable precautions with their children as well as make sure the caregivers that care for their children are responsible.

There’s a zillion places but you don’t hang kiddies over the edges of escalators or stairwells.

RIP little angel.

 

[they'll get you]

Is this worth $21.5 million?

Steel bars on all the windows and balconies will let the breeze through, heck put a cage right around the ship to prevent suicides and in an emergency nobody will survive.

 

[Medstudies]

How is this the cruise line's fault? How would they ever imagine that an adult would prop an 18 month old child up against an open window sill, 150 feet above a concrete deck?

Right?! We have speeding laws and seat belt laws and yet many people choose to ignore these laws. ::: Including dear old loving grand dad SA :::

people still break laws - kill breaking laws- die breaking laws. Which is why there are courts and jails! Again, because some people choose to ignore laws. (Cough :::SA ::: cough)

fact is ships have potentially dangerous situations for kids balconies. pools. stairs. strangers. Windows (Open and closed ones) There have been thousands of people on this ship. How many times has this happened???

And the poor excuse for her death: Pounding the glass like at a hockey game. Right..... Wouldn’t that be more realistic if she were standing on the floor like she did at her brother’s hockey games?

MOO: He was completely negligent

 

[they'll get you]

In Australia we have laws that bar staff must refuse alcohol to someone who’s drinking too much.
Would/should that be the same on a ship?
IMO if grandpa did have too much to drink then could the bar staff/cruise line then be responsible for Chloe’s death?
In that case he should’ve had a breathalyser.

Just a thought and hope that made sense.

 

[they'll get you]

Right?! We have speeding laws and seat belt laws and yet many people choose to ignore these laws. ::: Including dear old loving grand dad SA :::

people still break laws - kill breaking laws- die breaking laws. Which is why there are courts and jails! Again, because some people choose to ignore laws. (Cough :::SA ::: cough)

fact is ships have potentially dangerous situations for kids balconies. pools. stairs. strangers. Windows (Open and closed ones) There have been thousands of people on this ship. How many times has this happened???

And the poor excuse for her death: Pounding the glass like at a hockey game. Right..... Wouldn’t that be more realistic if she were standing on the floor like she did at her brother’s hockey games?

MOO: He was completely negligent

If a cruise ship is so dangerous then why is it always adults that fall overboard.

 

[oviedo]

In Australia we have laws that bar staff must refuse alcohol to someone who’s drinking too much.
Would/should that be the same on a ship?
IMO if grandpa did have too much to drink then could the bar staff/cruise line then be responsible for Chloe’s death?
In that case he should’ve had a breathalyser.

Just a thought and hope that made sense.

RCCL will refuse to serve you if you are too intoxicated - I’ve seen them do it and the threat is they will put you off the ship in the next port- I do the weekend cruises and drinking is quite heavy - IMO they do make the effort and very likely still could be accountable if they serve someone too much and they do something to injure themselves or others - much like bars when drunk patrons leave and drive and get in an accident
jMO

 

[mickey2942]

RCCL will refuse to serve you if you are too intoxicated - I’ve seen them do it and the threat is they will put you off the ship in the next port- I do the weekend cruises and drinking is quite heavy - IMO they do make the effort and very likely still could be accountable if they serve someone too much and they do something to injure themselves or others - much like bars when drunk patrons leave and drive and get in an accident
jMO

I have seen people so inebriated that they can barely walk, be served alcohol on ships. For that reason alone, is why I quit short, inexpensive cruises.

That being said, we don't know that the Grandfather was under the influence of alcohol. We can speculate. I believe that he was trying to figure out how to take care of an active toddler in an unfamiliar environment. He may not have been her normal caregiver, maybe just "tasked" to watch her while the parents were doing something.

Who knows? Maybe the child was beginning to drive him crazy. I have had toddlers, it is not beyond imagination to understand that situation...

"Geez, this kid is driving me crazy! Maybe she can look out the window for a few minutes.". Whoops.

 

[Safeguard]

As I was running errands yesterday I began noticing all the places where parents could seat children where they could fall to their death, or at least receive serious injury.

People seem to be confused about what gramps did. I was as well until all the pics, videos and other info was put forth here. There seems to be no way Chloe could have fallen out the window, or even reached it to bang, if she was seated on the rail!

By all accounts, she was in his arms and fell from them, because she was being held over the safety rail. Distance of rail from the glass, or tragically, the AIR, in this case, was too great for toddler to reach from a seated position on that rail.

By all MSM accounts, she fell out of his arms, from above and past the safety guard rail.

There’s a zillion places but you don’t hang kiddies over the edges of escalators or stairwells.

Or out of windows as it turns out.

And the poor excuse for her death: Pounding the glass like at a hockey game. Right..... Wouldn’t that be more realistic if she were standing on the floor like she did at her brother’s hockey games

I think we can safely put that fairly tale to rest now. I have a feeling a lot of people were underestimating what is on that footage... I was for sure.

 

[Safeguard]

That being said, we don't know that the Grandfather was under the influence of alcohol. We can speculate. I believe that he was trying to figure out how to take care of an active toddler in an unfamiliar environment. He may not have been her normal caregiver, maybe just "tasked" to watch her while the parents were doing something.

rsbm.
Refusing a breathalyzer is probably why people are thinking he had at least one drink. That's not an unreasonable conclusion imo.

There are many pics of grandpa on his social media showing him caring for Chloe. She is described as, his best buddy, and it looks like they were together frequently enough for him to know how to care for her quite well.

The new reports coming out are extremely damaging. You don't play "lets hang baby out a window" . Drunk or sober.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I think they were taking full advantage of the booze package as many do.
Because booze is free they go get their money’s worth.
The more I read the more I believe that he was comfortably numb.

I can't speak to the all-you-can-drink packages on RCCL as I haven't sailed on Royal Caribbean for more than 20 years. I'm familiar with Princess' all-you-can-drink packages even though DH and I would never purchase one. We enjoy a bottle of wine or champagne with dinner and don't drink other alcoholic beverages. On Princess, if one person in a stateroom purchases the drink package, the other adults in the stateroom have to purchase the same package. I don't know if the policy extends to all adults who are traveling together if they are in different staterooms. The cruise line wants to make sure that one passenger is not getting drinks for other folks with whom they're traveling.

It's entirely possible that SA had consumed alcohol after boarding the ship. His cruise card will indicate if and/or how many drinks he had. I'm not ready to jump to conclusions about SA's sobriety at the time of the incident.

Cruise Drink & Beverage Packages | Royal Caribbean Cruises

 

[justbreathe]

Freedom of the Seas Cruise Ship to Undergo Refurbishment With Waterslides, New Eateries and More

Freedom of the Seas Cruise Ship to Undergo Refurbishment With Waterslides, New Eateries and More

August 21, 2019

(10 a.m. EDT) -- Freedom of the Seas will become the latest Royal Caribbean cruise ship to undergo a bow-to-stern refurbishment as part of the line's more than $1-billion Royal Amplified project when it goes into dry dock in spring 2020. When it emerges in March, it will feature two waterslides, a redesigned Caribbean-themed pool deck, new eateries and bars, and transformed kids and teen spaces.

...The kids and teens Adventure Oceans spaces will also be completely redesigned, including the spaces for babies. New areas will include Play Place, for thought-provoking exploration, the Workshop, for art, science and tech activities, and the Arena, for friendly, active challenges. The Hangout will be the spot for gaming and chilling out. Babies and 3- to 5-year-olds will be able to spend time in Adventure Ocean Babies and Adventure Ocean Junior. Teens will also get new spaces including a private outdoor deck just for them...

Nothing at all about changing windows or installing new windows in the kids' spaces onboard Freedom of the Seas.

Whole place needs a new look. No one is going to want to look around and be reminded of this.

 

[justbreathe]

The first very early report I saw said that the mother was in a different part of the ship and came running to see Chloe without knowing she was lying on the concrete 150 feet below. She was saying “take me to my baby! I want to see my baby!” snd then screamed when she saw her on the concrete below.

It's not really that far, less then a foot. It just looks far because of the way he has the camera tilted more outward to get the outside view and the rail is just a bit higher than the bottom ledge of the window. So if he had set her tush on the railing her feet could have dangled and rested on the bottom of the window frame or just outside of it.

This image makes my stomach sink...

 

[justbreathe]

His lawyer advised him to refuse a breathalyzer test?
I thought they usually advised you against that, since it can be viewed as an admission of guilt?

Imo

Always refuse the breathalyzer! They aren’t even accurate.

 

[justbreathe]

My opinion about this case is really focused on the window child safety issue because of a tragedy I witnessed many years ago. Businesses who attract families as paying customers have a responsibility and a duty to address safety.

The civil case isn't all that complicated. Toddlers don't just bang on windows. They also like to look through windows. I think Chloe was seated on the railing very close to her grandfather with his arm around her waist. The railing would be bearing her weight rather than her grandfather's hand/arm/shoulder/back.

Toddlers don't wiggle a lot when they are fascinated at looking at something but if they are standing on the floor, they will wander away. I believe Grandpa was standing in order to see the family's other children in the water play area and whatever suddenly happened, Grandpa couldn't react in time.

<modsnip - off topic>

There was tabled seating near those cruise line windows. What if an older child decided to stand on a table or chair to get a better view out the window because the railing blocked his view? There should be no open windows accessible to children on a cruise ship just as there should be no live gators lurking in the water next to a children's beach. To me, it is common sense.

JMO

Then that older child would be violating the rules and being unsupervised. No child could reach that window on there own.

This theory that he was watching other children is something you completely made up.

Basically you think children should not be allowed near any body of water in Florida.

I expect caregivers to watch their own children and keep them safe.

 

[justbreathe]

That's your opinion. If there was a baby seated on the railing--and absolutely no warning posted about the railing or the windows--then that is the fault of the business owner, not the family of the child.

There are ample laws in place about attractive nuisances. A cruise line is not exempt from following the law.

JMO

They are exempt from following made up laws. This is nothing near what an attractive nuisance is?

What has this world come to where people need a warning sign to not sit children on HANDrails by open windows?

 

[justbreathe]

Puerto Rico has its own constitution, government and justice system including its own supreme court.

Government of Puerto Rico

All states also have their own constitution, government, state justice system, and state supreme court? But we all must comply with the laws of the US federal government.

 

[Lilibet]

Then that older child would be violating the rules and being unsupervised.

This theory that he was watching other children is something you completely made up.

Exactly! I’ve posted two videos, one of the kid’s pool area and one of decks 11 and 12, showing an overview of the entire deck 11 pools. It’s absolutely clear that no one could stand at the windows and “supervise” a kid in the pool area. There is too much activity and running around to maintain focus on one child, while also keeping a toddler entertained and safe. It didn’t happen.

Making up false narratives and pointing fingers at others to take the focus off someone’s guilt seems to be a common distraction nowadays when people don’t want to face reality.

 

[justbreathe]

Good luck with that.

If the parents want to watch, I think the tape could be edited by LE to show only what led up to Chloe’s fall, without including the fall itself. Their attorney, however, will have an opportunity to watch the entire tape.

Nope. You have to watch the whole thing, or not at all. That apparently is the “rule” that cannot be broken. /s

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Where is the notion coming from that SA was minding other children in the H2O Zone? Most reports I've read/heard indicate that only Chloe's (step) brother was on the cruise with other adult family members.