IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #19

[cspring]

Hmm...I remember seeing this video. Good point. I don't remember the older guy, but I clearly remember the older girl and wondered immediately what the heck someone her age was doing at this party, and kissing on ZO, especially. She seemed like she was trying to be all into the younger boys and wanting on their "good side" and this could have been why.

It's so interesting b/c when I think of "higher up" drug dealers, I think of slimy -looking guys who are filthy and gross. The reality is shocking. I hear most are professional, well dressed, have families and many times friends nor family have ANY idea. Many don't even do the drugs - it's an income to them, just like legal salesmen who don't use the products they sell.

Good call on this one I think.

I have been really surprised myself many times at ppl u wouldnt think would be into drugs-but r-and very much so! They Def aren't always dirty n slimy. Its very much a business-an addictive business. I was always into the "doing" side but every single person Ive known that dealt was very serious about their money. Ive been almost 6 yrs clean. I believe Lauren wouldve come off the drugs as she got older-given the chance. We r not bad ppl just because we do/did drugs-but they Def can make u do very bad and very stupid things.

 

[AnalyticalExaminer]

I am not accusing him of anything other than receiving a phone call that he most likely did not even answer. But the subject of that phone call has been up for speculation. If in fact, DR was there later in the night than we are aware of, then the subject of the phone call (which he most likely did not answer) may be open for more possibilities. (And I am declining to give a "such as..." scenario just now.)

And I'm just saying that if he was there later in the night, that is presumably known to LE. Not that they would apprise us of that fact, necessarily. But it might have worked its way into the timeline if she encountered DR at JR's on her return.

 

[Tr.]

I thought the exact opposite about the letter. To me, I feel like it is directed toward someone she knows. Your silence is deafening=all the times her parents have called out her friends for not giving up more. I don't see someone saying "Your silence is deafening" to a random crazy maniac that grabs people off the street. I feel like her parents pretty strongly feel like the answers to what happened to Lauren lie with her friends and maybe even more specifically JR since he has been criticized for his silence the most out of all of them. The defining moment to me even seems like they aren't fully blaming the person for the death. Would you say to a random maniac that rapes and kills for fun that "don't let this be your defining moment"? I wouldn't. I MAY say that if I think one of my daughter's friends may know where my daughter's body is.

Interesting how people hear/read the word "abducted" and instantly go to crazy stranger boogie man types.
It's kind of like "drug dealer" and the typical stereotyping that goes with that thought.

"I’ve learned there lurks an evil, a cruel, heartless element that cares more about themselves than the life of my daughter."

This doesn't sound like something you would say to someone you thought may have been trying to help LS out of a bad situation and salvage her reputation...etc...etc

This sounds a lot like something you might say to someone who you think knows LS, abducted LS with the intent of raping her, and then disposed of her like garbage to hide their selfish acts.

The "defining moment" comment in this case may refer to the possibility that the perp/s themselves were under the influence and rational thinking was temporarily impaired...."so come clean...admit you messed up".

 

[Gabby66]

For me rather than try to put myself in their position I would rather look at other people that were put in their position and see how they react.Unfortunately a college student OD is not a new thing.In those cases what do the other students usually do.They may panic and delay calling for help.Hide any evidence before calling the police claim no knowledge of drug use.But transport a body and dump it?How often does that happen?
I will admit dumping her body after she OD makes a lot more sense if she OD on a drug not that she took willingly (cocaine) but on a date rape drug so that evidence found from her body would point to foul play rather than an accident.

I get what you're saying, but to be able to truly analyze this, we'd have to compare this case not just against other college kids who OD (and what happen to their bodies) but to those ONLY who OD in the company of their dealer or friends who gave her the drugs (IF that's indeed what happened with LS). I don't think it's fair to compare this situation to what happens to the majority of others, b/c my guess is that many are attended to by doctors because they are brought in by friends who probably didn't supply them with the drugs. They could be brought in by family as well, if living at home. Many may make it back to their dorm and "found" by their room mate. I get the feeling that IF LS OD'd, she was likely found by a guilty party (or someone who at least felt some sort of guilt) and his reaction might likely be entirely different than a room mate discovering her. ITA agree with you about the date rape drug.

 

[JeannaT]

Interesting how people hear/read the word "abducted" and instantly go to crazy stranger boogie man types.
It's kind of like "drug dealer" and the typical stereotyping that goes with that thought.



This doesn't sound like something you would say to someone you thought may have been trying to help LS out of a bad situation and salvage her reputation...etc...etc

This sounds a lot like something you might say to someone who you think knows LS, abducted LS with the intent of raping her, and then disposed of her like garbage to hide their selfish acts.

The "defining moment" comment in this case may refer to the possibility that the perp/s themselves were under the influence and rational thinking was temporarily impaired...."so come clean...admit you messed up".

I see what you're saying, but I don't necessarily agree. That statement could have been made even if Lauren's mom only believes she accidentally died and then someone hid her remains to save themselves any possibility of being found guilty of something, with no regard to the pain the parents are now in.

 

[WhitneyLea]

How horrible and sad for Lauren's mother. What a heartfelt letter.

The thing is, if several people know what happened and were involved and some have much less (or no) guilt, the chances are high it will come out eventually what happened. If only one person knows what happened, I think they've completely gotten away with it.

Unfortunately, I think I agree with your last sentence. Personally, I've always thought it's most likely that only one person knows what really happened to Lauren. I'm not sure who that one person is, but I do think that if something bad happened to Lauren, whether it was OD, assault, or something else entirely - I just can't imagine a person who has decided to dispose of a body contacting ANYONE else for help. That just seems like it would raise the chances of being caught exponentially. Even if you trusted the person. Once you have a dead body on your hands, anything you do other than calling 911 is going to land you in a LOT of trouble if anyone finds out. And it's always easier to keep a secret if you tell NO ONE. And Lauren is so tiny - I don't think any of these guys, or even most women, would have much trouble moving her if they were determined to do so.

Of course, if an OD/accident/etc. happened while multiple people were present, then there is a reason to coordinate. They would have to come up with a really solid cover story, or I think we would have learned something by now. And I still think that the more people around, the more likely one of them will insist on calling 911 or would have cracked by now. Just my thoughts ...

 

[Gabby66]

I have been really surprised myself many times at ppl u wouldnt think would be into drugs-but r-and very much so! They Def aren't always dirty n slimy. Its very much a business-an addictive business. I was always into the "doing" side but every single person Ive known that dealt was very serious about their money. Ive been almost 6 yrs clean. I believe Lauren wouldve come off the drugs as she got older-given the chance. We r not bad ppl just because we do/did drugs-but they Def can make u do very bad and very stupid things.

I just wanted to say GOOD FOR YOUR for being clean six years!

 

[Gabby66]

Incidentally I agree with both of them not impressing me as anything other than young college guys, pretty standard fare, and neither could I picture being particularly nefarious. Neither were the descriptions I have heard of JR.

But I am not at all convinced that there is any nefarious scenario here, except an accidental death and a bunch or less of panicked college kids. Sharing drugs with your buddies and having one die may make you a criminal on the books, but to me the idea is absolutely absurd. And if the body was hidden because of a fear of legal consequences then I feel badly for everyone, and I think the law should be changed.
OTOH, I am more of the mindset that if LS was hidden away because certain people wanted to hide their lifestyle (from parents and the school) so that it could continue, then I have a little less sympathy. In other words, I think it should have been a call to "grow up" but not end in a prison term.

I struggle with this and agree that there are two sides to the situation. I get the feeling that SO many people want to believe that these are bad kids for not talking, and horrible criminals for doing drugs and offering them to a petite young girl, and maybe even downright murderers. I don't agree. I think they are likely good kids (OK, I don't really think that about ZO) who have made dumb decisions - but that's not so uncommon on a campus. Most people would be SHOCKED at what happens to GOOD kids from really great families, once they leave for school. I see it all the time. They have great intentions and do manage to do well in school but most schools (especially the larger ones) are big-time parties waiting to happen. Drug and alcohol can cause even the best of kids do the worse of things. It's a toss up because if we changed the law and say, "I'm sorry you made a dumb decision to hide a body. Grow up and don't do it again." then everyone will start to hide bodies, to cover up their drug problems. On the other hand, I do truly believe that these kids may have reacted NOT all that differently than many other kids may have in the same situation (fear) - maybe even some of our own kids. I know that some of you will read this and think, "not MY kid" but really, we never know. I've seen the most angelic girls get into college and sleep with every boy available. I've seen Alter Boys go on to become drug dealers. It happens. The reality is that at some point, our kids are less influenced by their parents and more by their peers. In high school, we have some control over with whom they hang around. In college, we can't control who they get for a room mate, if it's random selection. Their peers go from being people they hang around to people with whom they LIVE - almost like family. This is the first time they've been on their own and many are easily influenced. IMO IF there was no murder or rape involved, but they reacted out of fear, it's different than a criminal hiding a body after having murdered the victim, but the charge is the same. One kid gets arrested for "concealing a body" while the other is arrested for "murder" and "concealing a body". I'm NOT making excuses for them whatsoever. What they did was wrong. But it's sad to see ANYONE ruin the rest of their lives over a potentially dumb decision, as opposed to a hard-core criminal. The law is tricky. I also feel that it's a very VERY different thing when an 18 year old sleeps with his 15 year old girlfriend, as compared to a 40 year old man sleeping with a 15 year old girl. In many states, it's the same crime.

 

[Jupiter812]

Here is my take on higher up DD possibly being involved of disposing LS. Unless this higher up person was DIRECTLY responsible for harming LS in some way, or is in a equal partnership with the person directly responsible, once they heard somebody possibly OD they would be out the door before you can say another sentence. I mean really, somebody with anything to lose is not going to implicate themselves into a possible crime, especially to cover for somebody who buys drugs from them. You could argue that the person they are covering for may rat them out to LE, but most serious drug dealers insulate their activities, as a whole, from their buyers, for just these reasons, especially somebody deeply involved with a drug enterprise in a college town.
Also, ANYBODY is capable of disposing a body. The world is full of missing persons who have vanished never to be seen again. Ranging from mothers who kill and dispose of their own children, to random predators disposing of victims. ANYBODY!!!!!!

Thanks. I agree. I wasn't thinking too far up the chain. Someone who would still party in the area, party with the POIs. I had in mind the "prominent dealer" in the area that Northsider referred to in his post the other night. I realize this is not the same as having a higher position in the chain.

 

[goodgirl65]

Looks like Tony Gatto's story about lack of landfill searches has caused serious heat by posters on BPD's FB page:

Dozens of citizens had written on the police department’s Wall, criticizing the department’s handling of the Lauren Spierer case, mostly about recent revelations that landfills have not been searched

http://tonygatto.com/

 

[imkeylime]

I have been really surprised myself many times at ppl u wouldnt think would be into drugs-but r-and very much so! They Def aren't always dirty n slimy. Its very much a business-an addictive business. I was always into the "doing" side but every single person Ive known that dealt was very serious about their money. Ive been almost 6 yrs clean. I believe Lauren wouldve come off the drugs as she got older-given the chance. We r not bad ppl just because we do/did drugs-but they Def can make u do very bad and very stupid things.

You know, I have so much empathy for LS. I do suspect she let things get out of control, but I doubt having long QT syndrome was a piece of cake, either, perhaps why she didn't share that with many friends. Most kids don't like to be different. I think we sometimes "self-medicate," if you will, until we realize what's really important and learn to achieve that. But others can take advantage of that, which I'm afraid may have happened here. Kudos for staying clean, BTW.

 

[TonyGatto]

Looks like Tony Gatto's story about lack of landfill searches has caused serious heat by posters on BPD's FB page:

Dozens of citizens had written on the police department’s Wall, criticizing the department’s handling of the Lauren Spierer case, mostly about recent revelations that landfills have not been searched

http://tonygatto.com/

Just to clarify. The original story on lack of landfill searches was from the Herald Times. Yesterday I wrote about the online onslaught against BPD -- AND THEN - today BPD scrubbed their FB of all public comments, as did the mayor of BTown.

 

[Alliecog]

It really kills me to know that the town I moved to as a student, but fell in love with as a resident is keeping anything from happening in this investigation (as far as I can tell). I am an east coast transplant, but I love it here and for now, can't picture myself living anywhere else. The community is so unique from all the other small towns in Indiana. I trusted the Bloomington PD to keep me safe, really I still do but I am just so disappointed.

Come on, Bloomington. You're better than this! We're all better than this.

 

[bx2]

What continues to bug me (and I realize we don't have very much to go on here) is the timeline between when she is last spotted on camera ~2:51 and arriving at CR/MB's, seemingly so that CR can pass out.

I can't shake it that they didn't immediately go there. What state is the same non-functioning girl described on the Smallwood video now in if they went directly there 15 mins later? If she really did ask MB if he wanted to "party", what made her think that to even be an available option?

 

[AnalyticalExaminer]

Perhaps it was an available option because she was going somewhere it would, i.e. JR's, and this may be how MB knew she went there.

 

[bx2]

Perhaps it was an available option because she was going somewhere it would, i.e. JR's, and this may be how MB knew she went there.

And this is what I believe to be the commonly held train of thought. To rephrase my question though, why would she think it to be an option? Did JR tell them when they left to come back later? Did they see people inside JR's when they walked by upon return from Smallwood?

To your later point, I've always accepted that MB and JR talked to each other the next day at some point, and MB would have then obtained the knowledge that LS went there, he just might not know *when* she went there.

 

[cspring]

You know, I have so much empathy for LS. I do suspect she let things get out of control, but I doubt having long QT syndrome was a piece of cake, either, perhaps why she didn't share that with many friends. Most kids don't like to be different. I think we sometimes "self-medicate," if you will, until we realize what's really important and learn to achieve that. But others can take advantage of that, which I'm afraid may have happened here. Kudos for staying clean, BTW.

Thx! Its my kids that keep me from wanting to do stupid things! They change everything dont they. That is why i can not imagine The Spierer's agony. I Dont think Id have her grace. She is a strong woman and i Dont doubt that Lauren wouldve grown to be a strong beautiful woman like her. Uh oh! Waterworks again.

 

[Chris007]

And this is what I believe to be the commonly held train of thought. To rephrase my question though, why would she think it to be an option? Did JR tell them when they left to come back later? Did they see people inside JR's when they walked by upon return from Smallwood?

To your later point, I've always accepted that MB and JR talked to each other the next day at some point, and MB would have then obtained the knowledge that LS went there, he just might not know *when* she went there.

What if JR told LS, CR and DR they all had to leave because the DD was going to be there soon and to come back in a couple of hours. So LS, CR goes to Sports, DR goes to Smallwood. JR texted them at Sports saying his shipment as been dropped off.

They leave sports to head back to Smallwood to pick up DR, then walk up to 5North to JR's to get what they had left money for.

Or something along those lines.

 

[elmomom]

http://www.lohud.com/article/201107...nd-says-he-passed-polygraph?odyssey=nav|headl

JW polygraph

Wolff responded today via Facebook, urging the reporter to "Leave me alone please." He then stated, "I spoke with the detectives Tuesday and have taken a polygraph. All my cards are out on the table ..."

Asked whether police administered the polygraph, and for the results, Wolff replied, "what the (expletive) do you think the results were? if i failed a polygraph everyone in the world would know ...."

Asked again whether police administered it, he replied, "I don't think you are understanding what i just said to you ... dont (sic) ever talk to me again."

 

[Tr.]

I see what you're saying, but I don't necessarily agree. That statement could have been made even if Lauren's mom only believes she accidentally died and then someone hid her remains to save themselves any possibility of being found guilty of something, with no regard to the pain the parents are now in.

Not sure this would make someone "evil".
I don't think it's a word CS would use lightly given the families religious beliefs. "Evil" is usually associated with the intent to do harm.
It certainly seems out of place with any belief in a scenario involving an accidental death unless the original intent were rape and the death occurred as a result.