IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28
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VeryVeritas
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The issue isn't if someone can walk upright after cocaine or other drug use. That's way too generalized of a question. Cocaine is stimulant and no question people can walk upright, run, dance and get on the front of an ocean vessel and proclaim they are the king of the world. However, as we all know alcohol alone can make someone pass out, fall over, or drop dead. Xanax alone can make someone pass out, fall over, or drop dead. Klonopin can make someone pass out, fall over or drop dead. Roofies can make someone pass out, fall over or drop dead. Mixing these in any combination can make someone pass out, fall over or drop dead. What Cocaine can do, or drinking several energy drinks for that matter, is give someone the illusion that the other things they are taking, are not going to make them pass out... so it often tricks people into drinking more, taking more.
It's been said that Cocaine was found in Lauren's apartment. I've not seen anything that proves it was hers or was not planted there later. It might have been hers, sure. It's been said that she was on medication for her heart. I've not seen any proof of that or what it was. It's been said she snorted Xanax or took Xanax with CR. It's been said she snorted Klonopin with DR at JR's where there would have been witnesses. It's been said there was talk of these things at Kilroy's. It's been suggested that someone put these or other drugs into her drink (all too common practice).
But we don't know, what she took voluntarily or involuntarily. Yet it looks like it was more than just a drink or two.
What we do know is that she could barely get out of the elevator at SmallWood after CR was punched. This is the building in which she lived. She appeared so out of it, she may have not even realized she was home. She then manages to get about 1 block away to 10th and College where she and/or CR knock on the door of some girlfriends. No one answers, LS sits down on the steps, and just falls over slamming her head into the cement.
There is no indication she had large enough quantities of alcohol to cause her to do that, so drugs probably one or more of the above were involved. A few minutes later she is up again and with CR trying to get through the Alley that leads to the gravel lot on the way to 5N. Upon exiting the Alley, she falls down face first without blocking with her hands. This is captured on video. It would seem to indicate that she again had blacked out and slammed down hard on a surface in a very dangerous way.
Now while it could have been possible to walk upright with cocaine or some of these other drugs in her system. She has now proven that she cannot do so, she keeps falling down in and incurring serious injuries.
This is not likely the first time LS had a drink, but it's clear she was not walking upright for very far without sustaining some real damage.
The idea that she would bounce up approximately 1 hr later sober / undrugged and walk home is not very likely and as such makes the statements of those (MB, MB's Lawyer, and JR) who paint her as either wanting to party on OR as suddenly sober and able to walk inconsistent with what was happening.
The problem I have with buying into the idea there's no way she walked out of 5N is I'd have to base it on a description of videos that I've never seen, and witness testimony that I've never actually heard. Meanwhile, I'd have to believe it is as bad as you (VeryVeritas) have described yet justify how the police or PI's cannot come to that same conclusion to the point of forcibly acting upon it (especially in the case of LE).
Even the PI in retelling the version of events they have uncovered took us to the point where you think he's going to imply there was no way she walked out of 5N... and then the PI did exactly the opposite and did not imply that and question that part of the story like you'd expect if he believed there was no way she could've walked out of that apartment on her own. At least that is what I came away with.
I fully realize it's basically the most simple theory of all, and the one that easily could pull all the question marks together. Add in the possibility of the body being disposed of in the nearest dumpster and taken to the landfill before it's checked and you have a perfect scenario to fill Occam's Razor.
But, the part that then nags me is if it's really that simple, why hasn't LE been able to blow a hole in the 5N bunch's stories and why aren't the videos and witness testimony enough to make at least JR and MB liars and trap them in a web they can't escape from (CR is claiming memory loss so he can't alibi them if their stories fall apart)? The only answer I can think of is the videos and witness testimony aren't THAT bad and/or the phone calls that morning that JR claims were LS logistically seem to have really been placed by her.
Even the PI in retelling the version of events they have uncovered took us to the point where you think he's going to imply there was no way she walked out of 5N... and then the PI did exactly the opposite and did not imply that and question that part of the story like you'd expect if he believed there was no way she could've walked out of that apartment on her own. At least that is what I came away with.
I fully realize it's basically the most simple theory of all, and the one that easily could pull all the question marks together. Add in the possibility of the body being disposed of in the nearest dumpster and taken to the landfill before it's checked and you have a perfect scenario to fill Occam's Razor.
But, the part that then nags me is if it's really that simple, why hasn't LE been able to blow a hole in the 5N bunch's stories and why aren't the videos and witness testimony enough to make at least JR and MB liars and trap them in a web they can't escape from (CR is claiming memory loss so he can't alibi them if their stories fall apart)? The only answer I can think of is the videos and witness testimony aren't THAT bad and/or the phone calls that morning that JR claims were LS logistically seem to have really been placed by her.
I've been thinking about this recently. Just a few weeks ago, a group of my friends went downtown. One of my guy friends got extremely drunk and when it was time to walk to the car he was being carried, dragged, thrown over people's shoulders. He fell in the bushes in the middle of downtown. Twice. A friend has a photo of him literally laying in the middle of a busy downtown sidewalk. He fell down A LOT (probably more than its reported LS fell in the same distance). When we got to his truck (someone else was DD), it was towed. He laid in the grassy/dirt area and didn't even realize his car was towed. BUT, he was smiling and talking through most of this (not very coherently though). He wasn't OD'ing, wasn't dying, just too drunk to use his bodily functions. Fell down hard several times too. I was thinking about this the other day and thought to myself he probably looked even worse than she did if he was captured on any cameras that night.
Now, LS could very well have been 'not smiling' as i'll put it, but my friend visually looked worse than what has been described to us as LS's actions from Smallwood to 5N. He wasn't in good shape, but it was nothing more than "I can't believe he's so drunk! Let's get him home!" to us because he was laughing and smiling along.
Yes, the 'no-hands fall' and the 'slamming her head' sound like they could be very serious but I wonder if her condition sounds worse verbally than it was physically? I'm assuming these cameras cannot pick up facial expressions/voices?
Food for thought, I suppose.
While I agree she'd have had a hard time walking sober 1 hour later, it's not impossible that she still wanted to party while on the way to 5N (and when she got there). From what I've heard, that's the danger of coke and even drinks like red bull with alcohol ... the brain doesn't register the state one's in. Klonopin or Xanax and alcohol would account for her falling, IMO, by slowing the messages from the brain to the body. She might have had more than one "disconnect" going on.
Also, there have been cases of people who make it back to their homes/beds and then die of alcohol poisoning. I don't believe she could have walked out of JR's sober ... but it may be possible that she stumbled out. And he let her.
If you suffer from Long QT or any other medical problem that causes fainting and seizures take a warning from this story. There is so much prejudice and ignorance about your disability. The prejudice comes stinking through everywhere I read. It seems no one has taken the time to learn about Long QT or even try to understand. I'm reminded of a story a friend told me. His brother was arrested and charged with public intoxication. That night the guy died in jail. But, he wasn't drunk or drugged. He had Long QT syndrome.
Jupiter812
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That would make sense if Lauren was trying to get in Smallwood but apparently she was looking for her phone.
If she died and panic set in with whoever was with her does it matter if it was her medical condition or drugs and alcohol? I don't think anyone thinks less of her either way. Afterall, she's a 20 year old college student who went out with friends and stopped off at a bar.
I suppose it would matter if there's absolutely no way she would've touched alcohol or drugs but the facts don't seem to support that.
It very well could be people mistook her condition to be drug related when it wasn't. I don't know enough about the condition to know, but is it possible she knew she needed to get back to her apartment to get her medication because she was getting dizzy, light headed, etc and the altercation ended up keeping her from that?
But again, I don't see how the difference ultimately changes anything in the end. I might be missing your point.
I suppose it would matter if there's absolutely no way she would've touched alcohol or drugs but the facts don't seem to support that.
It very well could be people mistook her condition to be drug related when it wasn't. I don't know enough about the condition to know, but is it possible she knew she needed to get back to her apartment to get her medication because she was getting dizzy, light headed, etc and the altercation ended up keeping her from that?
But again, I don't see how the difference ultimately changes anything in the end. I might be missing your point.
Just making a guess based on some information I read about the condition, wouldn't she be able to still vocalize her needs? And she wasn't forced or carried out of Smallwood so if she felt she needed her medication, wouldn't she insist on stopping at Smallwood and not get so easily distracted.
Anyways, while her condition could have been a factor, most reports of symptoms I have read include the word "sudden". If that's the case, I think her falling over/staggering was from the alcohol/drugs.
Cocaine (or any stimulant) is listed as a drug to avoid when on the betablocker medication for long qt. Having trouble finding anything concrete about klonopin.
Perhaps a quick read could help all armchair detectives. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/long-qt-syndrome/DS00434/DSECTION=symptoms
Jupiter812
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Klonopin would exaggerate the effects of a betablocker. If she snorted K. that alone plus a few drinks would cause muscle weakness which in turn would case falling down. Very different symptoms than seizure.
This quote is from a person who shared a story on the Web about his experience snorting K: "It can impair you to a much greater degree than you might anticipate, and actually blind you to how ****ed up you really are due to the relaxing and carefree nature of its effects."
This last part? About being relaxed and carefree? Could explain leaving cellphone and shoes.
I don't think falling down without using hands to block the fall was do to seizure. Try syncope. And there is a moderate risk from mixing those drugs. However, if she did die from Long QT, her life could have been saved by calling 911.
Blythe
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Having been convinced somewhat that LS could have been able to leave JR's; I want to know about 4:30 AM til 8:00 AM. Who was out within that time frame within the distance between 5N and Smallwood? What was not seen (Lauren) is as important as what was seen. Upon leaving 5N (if) did she have a random impulsive thought and go somewhere other than home? Did she collapse? Who might have seen her?
VeryVeritas
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VeryVeritas
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We mostly agree on this. Ultimately yes she could have died from natural causes or her heart condition. The fact that someone did something with her because they may have feared being blamed for giving her drugs or because they are involved with drugs seems to be the most likely explanation whether or not she actually had any in her system. The only way we would know is if her body is found and there are still traces that could be detected, also assuming it wasn't tampered with. I doubt her body will be recovered. And certainly I would rather she were alive and well. But if a body ever does turn up, It's probably long past the time where it could be linked with the long list of POI's.
All I see is circumstantial evidence leading to CR and JR, while MB seems to be an unwitting accomplice in covering for CR. The fact that these people can so easily move on with their lives shows me that they appear to be soulless. I consider people without a conscience to be sociopaths, at least to some degree. They don't seem like the type to be serial killers, but they do seem like the type that would say "sucks to be you" and do another shot.
So the net difference is pretty much the same. At this point it doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference why she died unless someone murdered her. In the remote possibility that she's alive this also wouldn't matter much.
Skigirl
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Wow, I'm amazed at the comment that 20 years ago someone wouldn't have let a tiny drunk girl with no shoes and no phone walk away alone at night but now things are different. I didn't think chivalry was particularly alive and well ten years ago, but I didn't realize that things had gone all the way to Darwinism. I can see a guy not insisting a girl stay over... but I really can't imagine a guy not offering/quietly insisting on walking home a girl that he knew and was friends with who was in that sort of condition.
Blythe
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And it's not really chivalry, it is human decency (though I get in trouble suggesting this here). But hey, girls, protect my son from his drunken stupors, too, Would you? (or his QT as the case may be)
You're assuming he or her felt there was any real danger with her walking out the door. I would counter that they all felt secure in this area and the gist of the situation (if it is how JR has been quoted) wasn't that far out of the usual for them.
They weren't in unfamiliar surroundings or anything.
But aren't you extrapolating from the situation as it has been reported (or have I missed some details)? Was she trying to dial the iPod or did she just pick it up and look at it and see it wasn't a phone?
One version has me tending to agree with you... the other version has me thinking simple mistake anyone could make and proving nothing.
The problem is, I've seen nothing to tell me which version is what has been stated by exactly by JR.
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