IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29

[Ros]

But CR is alibied by MB and JR (and presumably by two other people in JR's apartment). MB claims he took LS to JR's, and JR supports that idea.
While MB is CR's friend, JR doesn't seem such a good friend that he would lie for CR and make himself the last known person to have seen LS, if this wasn't the case.

We don't know that Lauren did not leave JR's, walk around the corner, then turn back and go to CR's and MB's, perhaps to look for her phone or other items. In this scenario, CR and MB do not have an alibi.

 

[elmorejames]

I'd bet a dollar that doubling back waitress / witness was dropping off blow somewhere to someone. just doesn't make sense for her not be known after two years or be fully on the record by LE, HT, Bo Dietl etc.

If I were a dealer in that town at the time especially if I worked in a bar, I'd give a discount to a courier. who wants to be bothered that late at night but doesn't want to turn down a sale.

wonder also if ISPD makes the rounds that late at night or solely BPD? especially that days after Officer Lerg's death?

 

[akh]

If she had looked like she was fine and like she was enjoying CR's company, why would all these people try to intervene?

I don't have the answer to that, but conversely, why did she leave SW with him after the confrontation? That was the perfect opportunity to get away from him if that was her goal. And if the confrontation was really about getting her away from him, then there's no way he simply 'takes her' is there? There's no getting around the fact she left SW with him after the confrontation.

 

[jjenny]

I don't have the answer to that, but conversely, why did she leave SW with him after the confrontation? That was the perfect opportunity to get away from him if that was her goal. And if the confrontation was really about getting her away from him, then there's no way he simply 'takes her' is there? There's no getting around the fact she left SW with him after the confrontation.

From the description of it, she was so intoxicated, I really doubt she knew what she was doing.

 

[BCityBird]

Here's the actual quote:


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2000877/Lauren-Spierer-missing-Man-seen-memory-moments.html

I haven't seen anything that implies Lauren was interested in Corey. Her friends and JW's roommate both didn't think anything like that was going on, and the description doesn't sound like it was mutual at all.

If she had looked like she was fine and like she was enjoying CR's company, why would all these people try to intervene?

Interesting. That article discusses a second confrontation later at Rossman's apartment. That is the first I've heard about it. Anyone have any details about this?

 

[akh]

From the description of it, she was so intoxicated, I really doubt she knew what she was doing.

But at this point she allegedly had protectors. And they had just punched CR. They still let him forcefully take her? It doesn't hardly make sense they'd let things escalate to violence and then do nothing even if she followed him of her own accord, let alone they'd do nothing if she was being coerced into leaving SW with him.

That's one of the reasons I have trouble just believing the confrontation was just some coincidental bump in the night with no significance to anything else and ended right there. Possible, I'm sure... But plausible? I don't think so. Not if it went as described.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

Interesting. That article discusses a second confrontation later at Rossman's apartment. That is the first I've heard about it. Anyone have any details about this?

I've never heard anything like that. Being so soon after she disappeared I'm thinking the article is just wrong, there was a lot of that in the beginning. But if it is true, it would be very important.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

I'd bet a dollar that doubling back waitress / witness was dropping off blow somewhere to someone. just doesn't make sense for her not be known after two years or be fully on the record by LE, HT, Bo Dietl etc.

If I were a dealer in that town at the time especially if I worked in a bar, I'd give a discount to a courier. who wants to be bothered that late at night but doesn't want to turn down a sale.

wonder also if ISPD makes the rounds that late at night or solely BPD? especially that days after Officer Lerg's death?

I said a lonnng time ago that either this witness is telling the truth and her timeline and description are correct OR there is something up with her, I just don't know what it could be or if it even has anything at all to do with Lauren. I wish I knew though.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

[ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9549531"]IN IN - Katelyn Wolfe, 19, Linton, 06 June 2013 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

http://www.*********.com/contribute...olfe-disappearance-similar-to-lauren-spierers

 

[akh]

I've never heard anything like that. Being so soon after she disappeared I'm thinking the article is just wrong, there was a lot of that in the beginning. But if it is true, it would be very important.

I think that 2nd confrontation might be a reference to JW and his dad and that confrontation at 5N...

 

[AbbeyR]

I don't have the answer to that, but conversely, why did she leave SW with him after the confrontation? That was the perfect opportunity to get away from him if that was her goal. And if the confrontation was really about getting her away from him, then there's no way he simply 'takes her' is there? There's no getting around the fact she left SW with him after the confrontation.

Well, as to the first part, I think she was too out of it to do anything by herself. He had to pick her up and carry and drag her from Smallwood to 5N. Maybe she wanted to go with him, maybe she didn't. I don't think it matters. She was too intoxicated to even walk, let alone make decisions or consent to anything. He should have left her at home.

I don't know about the altercation. It's a good question. I believe the story that the witnesses told the investigators, that they didn't like what they saw and said something to CR. I can only guess at the rest, but based on the story and what I've seen of CR's attitude, my guess would be that ZO's reaction wasn't just about protecting Lauren, but also about being told to get the eff out of his way or whatever CR said. Maybe those guys thought she was going home after that. Or maybe they were distracted by their own egos. Or maybe they thought it was a big enough deal to say something, but not a big enough deal to call the police. The witness was in the same situation a few minutes later -- What do you do if see something that worries you enough to speak up, but the person reassures you things are under control? I guess you make a quick judgement call about whether or not you should involve yourself further in the situation or can believe that things are under control and he's going to take care of her.

 

[AbbeyR]

I said a lonnng time ago that either this witness is telling the truth and her timeline and description are correct OR there is something up with her, I just don't know what it could be or if it even has anything at all to do with Lauren. I wish I knew though.

There were some contradictions, and I have had the same questions. In the end though, I think it's *possible* the contradictions come from Gatto, not the witness. Unfortunately, he never revisited or corrected his articles. I would really like to see him do a follow up and I have some questions I'd love to ask him... but I don't think either is going to happen.

 

[Ros]

Interesting. That article discusses a second confrontation later at Rossman's apartment. That is the first I've heard about it. Anyone have any details about this?

"Just days after the disappearance, Wolff and his father barged into Rossman and Beth’s apartment, investigators learned.

Jesse Wolff was confrontational, and Beth said he broke up a potential fight.

'I hope you rot in jail!' Wolff is said to have shouted as he left."

http://www.lohud.com/article/20120603/news02/306030045

 

[Ros]

IN IN - Katelyn Wolfe, 19, Linton, 06 June 2013 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

http://www.*********.com/contribute...olfe-disappearance-similar-to-lauren-spierers

Interesting. I would expect LE to be checking out the "usual suspects" (registered sex offenders) in the Bloomfield area, which is between Linton and Bloomington. I wonder how far the US Marshals went in checking out SAs when LS disappeared. Was it just in Bloomington or did it include neighboring cities such as Bloomfield, Martinsville, Nashville, etc.

I hope they find Katelyn quickly.

 

[akh]

Well, as to the first part, I think she was too out of it to do anything by herself. He had to pick her up and carry and drag her from Smallwood to 5N. Maybe she wanted to go with him, maybe she didn't. I don't think it matters. She was too intoxicated to even walk, let alone make decisions or consent to anything. He should have left her at home.

Without seeing the videos myself or actually hearing directly from the witnesses I have trouble believing she was without a doubt as out of it as you're describing-

"He had to pick her up and carry and drag her from Smallwood to 5N"

. LE has seen the videos and talked to witnesses and if she was really in that bad of shape then I have a hard time believing this case isn't further along and/or being handled differently.

I think there's a tendency to embellish the story once people have some idea of the outcome and then go back over details in their mind.

Plus, why aren't the PI's pushing this angle more if that's the case (that she was in a condition that makes it hard to believe she could've walked anywhere at 4:30AM)? They had the opportunity to take that tact when they summarized the case last year and didn't.

 

[jjenny]

How would you expect LE to handle this case differently? They still have no body. No body, no case.

 

[imkeylime]

Well, as to the first part, I think she was too out of it to do anything by herself. He had to pick her up and carry and drag her from Smallwood to 5N. Maybe she wanted to go with him, maybe she didn't. I don't think it matters. She was too intoxicated to even walk, let alone make decisions or consent to anything. He should have left her at home.

I don't know about the altercation. It's a good question. I believe the story that the witnesses told the investigators, that they didn't like what they saw and said something to CR. I can only guess at the rest, but based on the story and what I've seen of CR's attitude, my guess would be that ZO's reaction wasn't just about protecting Lauren, but also about being told to get the eff out of his way or whatever CR said. Maybe those guys thought she was going home after that. Or maybe they were distracted by their own egos. Or maybe they thought it was a big enough deal to say something, but not a big enough deal to call the police. The witness was in the same situation a few minutes later -- What do you do if see something that worries you enough to speak up, but the person reassures you things are under control? I guess you make a quick judgement call about whether or not you should involve yourself further in the situation or can believe that things are under control and he's going to take care of her.

I agree about the degree of involvement ... as we've discussed before, people have a hard time intervening in the first place, much less following through after being rebuffed/reassured. That even happened with one of Jeffrey Dahmer''s victims, I believe. I remember reading about it and feeling terrible.

Re: LS leaving with CR (and CR leaving with LS, to some degree). From everything I've read about LS, she was a nice, compassionate girl. IMO, she might have gone with CR simply because he'd been hit ... and she felt bad about that. At that point, CR may have been the "underdog" in her mind. It pains me to say that I could see my own daughter doing this. Also, we really don't know why LS and CR went back to SW in the first place. Maybe they did intend to go elsewhere vs. stay at SW.

Re: CR taking LS with him. It sounds like he wanted to be more than friends with LS that night, but we don't really know if she sensed this or not. IMO, his pride probably also took a blow when he got hit, and I bet that he preferred walking out with the girl at that point vs. walking away alone.

 

[BCityBird]

"Just days after the disappearance, Wolff and his father barged into Rossman and Beth’s apartment, investigators learned.

Jesse Wolff was confrontational, and Beth said he broke up a potential fight.

'I hope you rot in jail!' Wolff is said to have shouted as he left."

http://www.lohud.com/article/20120603/news02/306030045

Oh ok. The article made it seem like the confrontation happened the same night.

 

[imkeylime]

Interesting. I would expect LE to be checking out the "usual suspects" (registered sex offenders) in the Bloomfield area, which is between Linton and Bloomington. I wonder how far the US Marshals went in checking out SAs when LS disappeared. Was it just in Bloomington or did it include neighboring cities such as Bloomfield, Martinsville, Nashville, etc.

I hope they find Katelyn quickly.

You'd think Martinsville would have been checked, if only because of the activity there (search after report of a smell).

Katelyn's FB page says she also studied at Ivy Tech. (It appears that school has more than one campus, though.)

I second your thought about finding Katelyn quickly.

 

[AbbeyR]

Without seeing the videos myself or actually hearing directly from the witnesses I have trouble believing she was without a doubt as out of it as you're describing-. LE has seen the videos and talked to witnesses and if she was really in that bad of shape then I have a hard time believing this case isn't further along and/or being handled differently.

I think there's a tendency to embellish the story once people have some idea of the outcome and then go back over details in their mind.

Who do you think has embellished the story? The thing is, it's not just the video. There's the anonymous people quoted in that last article who talk about the fight, the source who saw the Smallwood video, the witness who saw Lauren falling and hitting her head (who told Gatto the story before the surveillance video and the PI report came out) and the PI's description from the other surveillance video etc describing how Lauren was carried.
They all say the same thing. Lauren is described as variations between seriously intoxicated to 'incapacitated'. Between Smallwood and 5 N, she couldn't walk by herself. She was some combination of staggering, falling, Corey 'helping' her along and carrying her. The PI"s said this was a combination of pulling, carrying and dragging, so when I say that, I'm taking it from them. They haven't played it down!

I feel like the opposite has happened. CR purposely had his lawyer give statements before some of this evidence came out saying Lauren was helping him home, and wanted to party. Someone also spread a rumor that Corey ran out and LS followed. Both were proven to be wrong by the surveillance videos, but they stuck in people's heads, I think. If we just go by the evidence, the witness accounts match up, giving a pretty good picture of the state Lauren was in.

I'm also not sure how you think the case should be further along if this is true? We've had this info from the beginning...?