Incest Crime vs Rage Attack

Why the need to seperate the two? Why not a rage attack because of incest?

Sure. Isn't it true that it's customary for the spouse to blame the victim?

I can see that:

JB: Mommy, I gotta tell you somethin'

Patsy: What, honey?

JB: (whispers)

Patsy: WHAT?! You little liar!

Boom.

I couldn't even write that without crying!

Or there's the other one: Patsy catches him doing it, swings and hits JB. JSB.

I think I'm MAD now!
 
Sure. Isn't it true that it's customary for the spouse to blame the victim?

I can see that:

JB: Mommy, I gotta tell you somethin'

Patsy: What, honey?

JB: (whispers)

Patsy: WHAT?! You little liar!

Boom.

I couldn't even write that without crying!

Or there's the other one: Patsy catches him doing it, swings and hits JB. JSB.

I think I'm MAD now!

I couldn't even read that without crying!!! :(
 
And believe me, that happens more than you think. Many times, women will ignore the child or blame them for lying rather than face the fact that the child's father is molesting his child.
 
Sure. Isn't it true that it's customary for the spouse to blame the victim?

I can see that:

JB: Mommy, I gotta tell you somethin'

Patsy: What, honey?

JB: (whispers)

Patsy: WHAT?! You little liar!

Boom.

I couldn't even write that without crying!

Or there's the other one: Patsy catches him doing it, swings and hits JB. JSB.

I think I'm MAD now!
Or JonBenet says or does something to provoke her mother.


Cathy
 
Imo the stager of the scene could have wanted to camouflage chronic sexual abuse by inflicting the acute wound. So that the investigators should think all damage to JonBenet's genitals had been done by the sexual predator on that night.

rashomon,
And quite where does this enlightened staging fit into your psychological theory that the Ramsey's were in a state of turmoil and panic, not to leave out the question as to why they ever considered an intruder would redress JonBenet in nice clean size-12's, after damaging her genitals?


.
 
Does a crime of incest resulting in death actually account for more of the evidence and behavior of the offender(s) than does the popular rage attack theory?

Tober,
I reckon so.

A rage attack does not explain why no medical assistance was sought.

Evidence relating to JonBenet's toileting issues being left lying about along with her urine-stained underwear and longjohns being ignored suggest this was not a toileting led homicide.

The stuff that was hidden and buried away, even denied to investigators, e.g. medical records etc, suggests the real motive lies elsewhere.
 
rashomon,
And quite where does this enlightened staging fit into your psychological theory that the Ramsey's were in a state of turmoil and panic, not to leave out the question as to why they ever considered an intruder would redress JonBenet in nice clean size-12's, after damaging her genitals?
A reversal in the staging attempts would explain it imo.
Maybe plan A was to dump the body outside without a ransom note left behind, to suggest a "snatched and abducted from her bed by an intruder, sexually assaulted, tortured and killed" scenario.
But when they did not dare to get rid of the body because they decided it was to risky after all, in their panic they switched to a 'kidnapping for ransom gone wrong' scenario instead, and for that the body had to be dressed in underwear.

jmo
 
A reversal in the staging attempts would explain it imo.
Maybe plan A was to dump the body outside without a ransom note left behind, to suggest a "snatched and abducted from her bed by an intruder, sexually assaulted, tortured and killed" scenario.
But when they did not dare to get rid of the body because they decided it was to risky after all, in their panic they switched to a 'kidnapping for ransom gone wrong' scenario instead, and for that the body had to be dressed in underwear.

jmo

rashomon,
I think there was some changes to the original plans along the way, but JonBenet did not need to be wearing size-12 underwear to make this appear convincing, maybe a barbie-gown, the underwear is redundant to the argument since they may be invisible beneath the longjohns, or as most now agree simply the wrong size?


The details although interesting do not support the idea that an attempt to hide prior sexual abuse was executed via a fake sexual assault.


IMO the size-12's were placed on her not even as a replacement for her size-6's since by default they would have been removed when she was allegedly sexually assaulted by an intruder, no they were placed on her to hide something.

A staged sexual assault would have added realism if JonBenet had been left naked from the waist down, along with the prior removed evidence of vaginal bleeding?


.
 
rashomon,
I think there was some changes to the original plans along the way, but JonBenet did not need to be wearing size-12 underwear to make this appear convincing, maybe a barbie-gown, the underwear is redundant to the argument since they may be invisible beneath the longjohns, or as most now agree simply the wrong size?


The details although interesting do not support the idea that an attempt to hide prior sexual abuse was executed via a fake sexual assault.


IMO the size-12's were placed on her not even as a replacement for her size-6's since by default they would have been removed when she was allegedly sexually assaulted by an intruder, no they were placed on her to hide something.

A staged sexual assault would have added realism if JonBenet had been left naked from the waist down, along with the prior removed evidence of vaginal bleeding?


.
I agree,UK,I'm just wondering what the cellulose or bifringement material could have been.I don't think the paintbrush would have been used to molest her.Powder from gloves,perhaps?
 
I agree,UK,I'm just wondering what the cellulose or bifringement material could have been.I don't think the paintbrush would have been used to molest her.Powder from gloves,perhaps?

Talc could be the birifringent material, but not the cellulose. That is wood or wood fibers.
 
I agree,UK,I'm just wondering what the cellulose or bifringement material could have been.I don't think the paintbrush would have been used to molest her.Powder from gloves,perhaps?

JMO8778,
In his book, Steve Thomas refers to the birefringent material in Not So Grand Jury:- Then we had the experts assess why a tiny splinter had been found in JonBenet's vagina. The cellulose splinter ... , and in another chapter, Laying Down The Badge:- The splinter in the vagina.

Although not demonstrated he assumes that the splinter originated from the paintbrush.

As I've mentioned elsewhere I reckon Steve Thomas' book is an attempt at lifting the lid on the unspoken corruption surrounding the case, I'll bet he privately told some to their face prior to his resignation. He pretty much blows Lou Smit away on his naive intruder theory and his leaking of evidence to Jameson's forum which patently became the RST's internet HQ. Where manifestly ridiculous theories were promoted by Boulder insiders wearing anonymous hats to the gullible public. Some have alleged to assist this process named person(s) were financially rewarded by the sale of information supplied via Lou Smit and other intermediaries? This cavalier attitude to the distribution of misinformation extended as far as Susan Stine with her bogus emails.

If you read Steve Thomas' Toilet Rage theory carefully where he outlines it in the form of a debate with Lou Smit in Not So Grand Jury you will find, despite him already having revealed that a splinter had been discovered, that he has no explanation for it either as a weapon or subsequent staging. This along with his admonition of John Ramsey as an innocent abroad duped by a violent matriarch is in retrospect an indication that his PDI is a form of pulp fiction, a sandwich filler for a book in which legally he was duty bound to reveal no evidence not already in the public domain.
 
Talc could be the birifringent material, but not the cellulose. That is wood or wood fibers.

DeeDee249,
Cellulose is a birefringent foreign material.


It was Dr. Spitz's conclusion that the splinter in JonBenet's vagina was part of the staging, yet Steve Thomas completely declines to run with this idea, it forms no part of his PDI.

So why does Steve Thomas not discuss this feature, or the missing piece of the paintbrush, was this originally redacted from the Autopsy Report?
 
rashomon,

IMO the size-12's were placed on her not even as a replacement for her size-6's since by default they would have been removed when she was allegedly sexually assaulted by an intruder, no they were placed on her to hide something.
UKGuy,

Why do you think the stager(s) of the scene put the too large size 12 Bloomies on JonBenet instead of taking one of her size 4 to 6 pairs from her underwear drawer?
 
UKGuy,

Why do you think the stager(s) of the scene put the too large size 12 Bloomies on JonBenet instead of taking one of her size 4 to 6 pairs from her underwear drawer?

rashomon,
Well any explanation for the size-12's will be contentious since some think they originated from the basement others from JonBenet's dresser?

Applying Occam's Razor and using the available fiber evidence this would suggest that it was John who redressed JonBenet in those size-12's after wiping her down with his Israeli manufactured woolen shirt. He did this either because they were to hand e.g. in Patsy's drawer, or lying about in the basement.

It was unlikely Patsy who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's since she had no cover story for them, she lied outright to the interviewers, and was then told only size-4's to size-6's were recovered from JonBenet's bathroom panty drawer e.g. no size-12's contradicting her claim that she placed them there for JonBenet to use.

So the simplest answer is that the size-12's were selected by mistake by John to hide something, to him they were just panties, and they hid JonBenet's sexual assault or potential evidence of bleeding admirably, so size-6's never entered the equation?

If a staged sexual assault was intended then underwear size-6 or size-12 is superfluous, since it merely adds to the notion of staging rather than embroidering upon any assault.

Patently size-6's were not selected because size was not the most relevant issue to hand. Patsy may have chosen size-6's if a fake sense of normalcy was being invoked by design, she would have known the size-12's would invalidate any claims to JonBenet being kidnapped from her bed, since no intruder would bother redressing JonBenet, again Patsy's lies point to her covering up for someone else, and currently there are only two candidates, one of which is linked via fiber evidence to JonBenet's body.

Again if a staged sexual were intended why remove JonBenet's size-6's, why not leave them presumably bloodied and torn in the wine-cellar or on her body, what was on them that required their removal to the detriment of all the subsequent staging since their replacement shouts staging?


Summarising the person who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's disregarded the size, and only saw female panties. The size-4 to size-6's are a refinement that would not have been lost on Patsy nor led to any contradictions!



.
 
rashomon,
Well any explanation for the size-12's will be contentious since some think they originated from the basement others from JonBenet's dresser?

Applying Occam's Razor and using the available fiber evidence this would suggest that it was John who redressed JonBenet in those size-12's after wiping her down with his Israeli manufactured woolen shirt. He did this either because they were to hand e.g. in Patsy's drawer, or lying about in the basement.

It was unlikely Patsy who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's since she had no cover story for them, she lied outright to the interviewers, and was then told only size-4's to size-6's were recovered from JonBenet's bathroom panty drawer e.g. no size-12's contradicting her claim that she placed them there for JonBenet to use.

So the simplest answer is that the size-12's were selected by mistake by John to hide something, to him they were just panties, and they hid JonBenet's sexual assault or potential evidence of bleeding admirably, so size-6's never entered the equation?

If a staged sexual assault was intended then underwear size-6 or size-12 is superfluous, since it merely adds to the notion of staging rather than embroidering upon any assault.

Patently size-6's were not selected because size was not the most relevant issue to hand. Patsy may have chosen size-6's if a fake sense of normalcy was being invoked by design, she would have known the size-12's would invalidate any claims to JonBenet being kidnapped from her bed, since no intruder would bother redressing JonBenet, again Patsy's lies point to her covering up for someone else, and currently there are only two candidates, one of which is linked via fiber evidence to JonBenet's body.

Again if a staged sexual were intended why remove JonBenet's size-6's, why not leave them presumably bloodied and torn in the wine-cellar or on her body, what was on them that required their removal to the detriment of all the subsequent staging since their replacement shouts staging?


Summarising the person who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's disregarded the size, and only saw female panties. The size-4 to size-6's are a refinement that would not have been lost on Patsy nor led to any contradictions!
Valid points, UKGuy.

ITa with you that fresh underwear put on the dead body contradicts a staged sexual assault scene.

But imo it is possible that Patsy tried to stage a sexual assault but did not finish it because she could not bring herself to proceed any further.
She could also have gotten a shock when seeing that the wound bled.
Maybe she asked John to wipe the blood off because she just could not go on.
It is true that the fiber evidence links John to the size 12 underwear, but the wooden splinter found in Jonbent's vagina links Patsy to the genital wound.
Why? Because her jacket fibers were found in the wrappings of the wooden handle, so it was probably she who broke the paintbrush.
 
Valid points, UKGuy.

ITa with you that fresh underwear put on the dead body contradicts a staged sexual assault scene.

But imo it is possible that Patsy tried to stage a sexual assault but did not finish it because she could not bring herself to proceed any further.
She could also have gotten a shock when seeing that the wound bled.
Maybe she asked John to wipe the blood off because she just could not go on.
It is true that the fiber evidence links John to the size 12 underwear, but the wooden splinter found in Jonbent's vagina links Patsy to the genital wound.
Why? Because her jacket fibers were found in the wrappings of the wooden handle, so it was probably she who broke the paintbrush.

rashomon,
But imo it is possible that Patsy tried to stage a sexual assault but did not finish it because she could not bring herself to proceed any further.
Whaaat, after whacking her on the head, garroting her, watching her have a seizure and bleed from her nose, she then decides hey thats enough violence, mmm I doubt it.

Maybe she asked John to wipe the blood off because she just could not go on.
Sure and John displays his round table credentials by removing his shirt to wipe away the blood, and deposit forensic evidence, why did Patsy not suggest size-6's instead of size-12's then?

It is true that the fiber evidence links John to the size 12 underwear, but the wooden splinter found in Jonbent's vagina links Patsy to the genital wound.
Why? Because her jacket fibers were found in the wrappings of the wooden handle, so it was probably she who broke the paintbrush.
Maybe, since we do not know if John handled the paintbrush handle too, also we do not know where the missing piece of the paintbrush is. Can you see why these items which appear to have no reason for not being present, become more relevant if they link to John rather than Patsy e.g. why would Patsy remove the missing piece of paintbrush yet leave behind the unused piece and her fibers on the used piece, go figure? Why would Patsy redress JonBenet in size-12's, and remove her size-6's then later lie about their location knowing in advance she better have a credible story for JonBenet wearing size-12's, more to figure out?

IMO the staging was intended to hide a sexual assault gone wrong. This is why medical assistance was never called for, this is why the staging reflects an intruder homicide by garroting. The deal was to fake a crime-scene to buy get away time, John Ramsey was prepared to flee airborne interstate that morning.

If the missing piece of the paintbrush eventually turns up as having been inserted inside JonBenet as staging, then the addition of the size-12's destroys this as staging since no intruder knew about those panties, and no intruder would waste time redressing his victim.

So for whomever redressed JonBenet in those size-12's that was a big risk factor so large it blew away any semblence of staging. What would impel John or Patsy to do that, Patsy would know what size-12's on JonBenet would imply. So who took that risk, why was JonBenet dressed in underwear no deviant pedophile would ever consider doing, who would want JonBenet to appear dressed as normal, when the staging required the opposite?

Would Patsy after purchasing the size-12's for Jenny, citing them as a Xmas gift, probably charged to her Bloomingdales card, then forget to place the remainder in JonBenet's panty drawer to backup her bogus story about JonBenet wanting to wear them, all after explicitly digging out the Bloomingdales tube and removing just that one pair of size-12's? I doubt it!


.
 
Talc could be the birifringent material, but not the cellulose. That is wood or wood fibers.

I didn't word this the way I should have. What I mean is that talc can be birifringent material but talc cannot be cellulose.
Cellulose means wood or wood fiber, and the paintbrush piece, whether a splinter or larger piece can be seen as both cellulose and birifringent.
 
JMO8778,
In his book, Steve Thomas refers to the birefringent material in Not So Grand Jury:- Then we had the experts assess why a tiny splinter had been found in JonBenet's vagina. The cellulose splinter ... , and in another chapter, Laying Down The Badge:- The splinter in the vagina.

Although not demonstrated he assumes that the splinter originated from the paintbrush.

As I've mentioned elsewhere I reckon Steve Thomas' book is an attempt at lifting the lid on the unspoken corruption surrounding the case, I'll bet he privately told some to their face prior to his resignation. He pretty much blows Lou Smit away on his naive intruder theory and his leaking of evidence to Jameson's forum which patently became the RST's internet HQ. Where manifestly ridiculous theories were promoted by Boulder insiders wearing anonymous hats to the gullible public. Some have alleged to assist this process named person(s) were financially rewarded by the sale of information supplied via Lou Smit and other intermediaries? This cavalier attitude to the distribution of misinformation extended as far as Susan Stine with her bogus emails.

If you read Steve Thomas' Toilet Rage theory carefully where he outlines it in the form of a debate with Lou Smit in Not So Grand Jury you will find, despite him already having revealed that a splinter had been discovered, that he has no explanation for it either as a weapon or subsequent staging. This along with his admonition of John Ramsey as an innocent abroad duped by a violent matriarch is in retrospect an indication that his PDI is a form of pulp fiction, a sandwich filler for a book in which legally he was duty bound to reveal no evidence not already in the public domain.

thx UK,excellent post !!
 
This cavalier attitude to the distribution of misinformation extended as far as Susan Stine with her bogus emails.

..for which her lame excuse was that it was just her 'sense of humor'. Haha,SS.
:rolleyes:
 

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