Israel Keyes: General Discussion

Discussion in 'Israel Keyes' started by bessie, Sep 2, 2013.

  1. rachlynneliz

    rachlynneliz New Member

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    Do think they’ve investigated him for the disappearance of Rebecca Reid. Similar to his final crime, kidnapped and robbed the store...the sketch of the suspect is eerily similar to his look when he robbed the bank.
     

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  2. Justin R

    Justin R New Member

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    There are roughly six hours available on both the FBI's website and youtube. The rest have been removed for some reason. I'm thinking it has to do with an active case of some sort.
     
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  3. MesquiteO21

    MesquiteO21 Please take the time to read "The Gift of Fear"

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    excellent post, now i'm curious about discovering all the various places named or referenced to satan, hell, etc.

    i admit after reading about him, i fall into the trap of thinking he's responsible for just about every unsolved case from 2000 - 2012 (but not as bad as that one guy who is convinced Edward Edwards is responsible for almost every murder from the Zodiac to JonBenet that ever occurred while he was alive, lol.)

    I've mentioned and thought about Brandon Swanson and Steven Koecher (BS having much more reasoning than SK). Your post reminded me of another one I had been thinking about. After i finished the book about him, I thought that Pastor Carol Daniels could be another victim. He had mentioned or fantasized about killing a pastor in a church so that the members would find the body. There was also mention of committing a murder near a police station as a way of taunting LE, and Anadarko's police station was just down the road from the church as I understand it. Plus he had also said he favored small towns over large cities since he figured the police wouldn't be as adept at solving murders.

    I can't remember if i was ever able to place him in Anadarko or anywhere in OK however he WAS rather familiar with Texas and wasn't bothered by driving long distances. Anadarko to Dallas is only about a 3-4 hour drive.

    I'll need to go back and see if I picked up any other points as they relate to the pastor.
     
  4. The First Article

    The First Article Well-Known Member

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    Found a few other things that relate to the native tribe's mythology. While he might have been misinterpreting it it doesn't mean that he wouldn't have used it in that misinterpreted form. For example he had to drive past Thunderbird to dispose of the one lady in the Lake up in Alaska. Thunderbird is one of the mythological creatures who formed the universe in that tribe. He worked for them.

    I suspect it's possible that he may have been trying to create pictures with where he put people or where he was picking. Possible that's what it means when he drew the one with the 5 points for 5 victims. He also indicated that victims in Canada don't count. To me that suggests the geography is relevant. He also didn't want the one counted for 2. 2 in one place disrupted something.

    He went to Mexico a few times and if Canadians didn't count I suspect that any Mexican or people on the other side of the Mexican border also didn't count.
     
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  5. Caseja

    Caseja New Member

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    No one downloaded the audio files?? There were 25 hours removed, I’d really like to hear them :(
     
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  6. saussy

    saussy New Member

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    Since my interest in IK I have wondered if geography played a role that was more significant than convenience or comfort. His sick sense of humor suggests that he takes pleasure in having inside jokes with himself. For example, on TCBS podcast there is a suggestion that he used the hair from his victims as part of his disguise in some bank robberies. It could be argued that this was nothing more than a method of disguise that is no different from using victim’s cars for crime, but the hair just seems like such a strange and calculated choice that would appeal to him as humor. It was like he wanted to see the security camera footage and laugh at how stupid he looked while spreading fear in these small communities. He seemed to think that these small towns were full of dummies, like in his interviews when he says that he thinks his acts of arson were written off as accident because small town cops and firefighters have no idea what they’re doing.

    The biggest signal that he might have been using geography or place names with calculated significance was the ATM withdrawals using SK’s card. The locations had biblical implications: Lordsburg, Humble, and Shepherd. There was also Willcox, but I’m not aware of any theological meaning to that place or its name.

    I just can’t shake Humble Shepherd as a coincidence. This is a term from the Bible, and with Lordsburg directly before.. I have no doubt that it was intentional. I am wondering if these biblical references were supposed to be meaningful because he knew he would be getting caught on this trip OR if he didn’t intend on getting caught and he was trying to send a false message to taunt and confuse cops and the public. I have also noticed some other possibly significant names. I am fully aware that some of them are REALLY reaching, and a lot of biblical references could be found just about anywhere. I just found these interesting and worth sharing:

    The curriers - currier is a word for messenger. Messengers are a big part of religion. If you believe (like I also do) that Keyes stalked some of his victims, then he may have selected the curriers based on their name.

    Common ground coffee shop - Common ground is a phrase often used in religion, especially Mormonism where they seek to find common ground in order to recruit new followers. Maybe he was using this high profile victim and subsequent ATM activity to find “common ground” between his true killer self and his facade by being caught. This could explain why he threw his code out the window and chose someone in the city where he lived and kept her in his own backyard. (Ok yes this was a reach)

    Ok so this one is definitely reaching: Jimmy Tidwell. If he is a Keyes victim, it seems like he would have been a more randomly chosen one. However, if Keyes knew his last name, perhaps he would have linked him to the Church of Wells. Being in Texas for his sister’s wedding might have caused him to search out a victim with a link to the events that were happening in his life.

    I was about to say that I couldn’t think of a biblical link to tie in Feldman, but then I realized something.. Keyes didn’t want to speak about Feldman. Maybe Feldman wasn’t part of his pattern, so he denied his part in her murder. Maybe this is the same with Lauren Spierer. They didn’t fit into his little game, they were like bonus kills, and he wanted to have this appearance of an elaborate plan. He also didn’t count his likely kills in other countries, as they just didn’t count for him. Sidenote: I also think that Feldman and LS (if she was a victim) didn’t count for Keyes because they were too easy. Feldman was a prostitute and Lauren was inebriated. No thrill of the hunt.

    The female psychologist in TCBS suggests that IK only claimed the murders that he was most proud of. I think this sentiment fits with what I’m saying - he only claimed the ones that he hunted, planned, and had this “deep” anti-Christ agenda - and maybe that happened to be 11. The way IK would say that “you’ll know the details someday” but was likely planning his suicide.. maybe he thought that he was giving away enough pieces that they would be solved based on this biblical connection? Maybe Keyes didn’t even have 11 biblically linked victims, but he just claimed this number for the symbolism and the real number is much higher. The Bible uses 11 as a symbol of disorder and rebellion, although I don’t really believe that Keyes chose 11 for the numerical symbolism. Just thought I would throw it out as it fits into what I’m saying.

    Just to also throw it out there: 12 has huge significance in the Bible. There were 12 disciples, 12 sons of Jacob (making up the 12 tribes of Israel), and 12 symbolizes the completeness of Israel. I REALLY wonder if IK thought he was being soooooooo clever by saying he had 11 victims, making himself the 12th in order to “complete Israel.” And then his 12 blood skulls with “we are one” which are another attempt at being poetic.

    And I can’t help but to mention that IK (possibly) had full intentions of being caught from a kidnapping on February 1st 2012 (2/1/12) and he killed himself on December 1st 2012. 12/1/12. Very similar and significant dates for Keyes. This feels like a little bit too much to be a total coincidence.

    As much as I might be reaching on the victim connections, maybe they are accurate and Keyes was also reaching in order to make loose connections. Based on his suicide note and blood skulls, I really think that Keyes had this idea that he was “deep” and poetic. He thought he was smarter than everyone by creating this pattern and no one could figure it out. I believe that he knew he was going to be caught by making those ATM transactions, and he was setting up this pattern which he perceived as being genius.

    In TCBS I heard that IK said that all of his crimes were related. I really wonder if he had this little inside joke that he chose some aspect of each crime as a link to religion. Maybe to spite his family and upbringing, but also maybe just to laugh about and have a little mind game to keep to himself and for web sleuths to crack with our “true crime BS.”

    This could all be giant major coincidences... I really don’t know if I believe that Keyes cooked this up, or if I have some crazy confirmation bias when it comes to this case. I have read almost all of IK’s dedicated threads on here but I hadn’t seen this mentioned anywhere. When I saw the satanic place names being mentioned, I had to make an account and put in my 2 cents! I’d love to hear what anyone else thinks!
     
  7. marable

    marable Active Member

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    Isn't Feldman a Jewish name ? Could he have hated Jewish people ? I will always believe in his sick mind that his suicide notes might reveal other victim names but he wrote and spoke in riddles , it was difficult to grasp the meaning of what he said and wrote ...
     
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  8. marable

    marable Active Member

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    I believe that I finally listened to all of his released interviews , the riddles that he spoke in were very tiring ...One thing that I recall that he said when asked if he had a certain victim in mind ....He said that he did but sometimes he took any victim that he could find at the moment ...
     
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  9. saussy

    saussy New Member

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    Hey good point. Spierer was also Jewish, and if she was one of his victims that he also didn’t want to claim, perhaps he feels like Jewish people also “don’t count.” Interesting. Thanks for mentioning that.

    I have a background in analyzing text and poetry, but I’ve never actually paid much attention to his suicide note because I have always felt that it was IK’s pathetic attempt of being deep, and I didn’t even want to entertain it. I also take the FBI’s analysis of it being meaningless at face value. I just took a look at the note, and it seems to be about his overwhelming need for control and his superiority complex. Some of it seems to take an anti- consumerism angle that he probably got from watching Fight Club.

    Listening to TCBS and hearing about how he thought he was so smart for reading certain books, I really get the feeling that he thought of himself as an amazing genius. I imagine him writing this half-baked poetic message and imagining that people would be in awe. In reality it is somewhat clever in some parts, hollow and just plain bad poetry in other parts, but totally unoriginal and self indulgent as a whole.

    I do wonder if you’re right and there are clues hidden in the note. I wish we knew more about his victims.
     
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  10. marya644

    marya644 New Member

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    He did hate Jewish people because he was brought up as a "Christian Identity". Which is a branch of the church that is racist, anti-Semitic, and encourages white supremacy.
     
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  11. marable

    marable Active Member

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    I remember that about his being a white supremacist , racist , anti Semitic ....Just an all 'round
     
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  12. MesquiteO21

    MesquiteO21 Please take the time to read "The Gift of Fear"

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    I kind of think so too. I don't believe for a second that a guy who had "kill kits", removed batteries from phones, etc. didn't know (or forgot) that bank cards can be and are tracked. He was careless for whatever reason, maybe wanted to get caught, but it wasn't because he was ignorant.
     
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  13. MesquiteO21

    MesquiteO21 Please take the time to read "The Gift of Fear"

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    one other thing -- as i mentioned, i am definitely guilty of thinking any missing person from 2000-2012 is probably an IK victim. However, another one I've been tossing around is Brandi Wells, who went missing in Longview, TX on 8/3/06. I didn't know about Church of Wells, so that's interesting.

    It would also tie into my theory about Brandon Swanson - there's the names Brandi/Brandon, and Longview, TX is in the vicinity of Marshall TX and Brandon was from Marshall, MN...although that could be a stretch because Brandon's car and cell records indicate he was in Porter, MN and that's not tied to anything having to do with a "Longview" or view or anything as far as I know.
    (It WOULD however, possibly tie in with the Curriers, since a porter is someone who carries things, and currier although it means someone who curries leather, might have been mistaken for "courier"-- someone who carries a message, letter, etc. Based on some of his writings, IK wasn't a great speller. He could have thought that "courier" was spelled "currier")

    you could go down an infinite rabbit hole with this one.
     
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  14. Mama_C_Ray

    Mama_C_Ray New Member

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    One, of the many, things that bothers me about his timeline is the time he spent before and after his cruise departing from NOLA. Car rental from IAH on Feb 2 driven 2847 miles round trip. That is a huge distance! He drove from IAH to Lafayette, La (about 2.5/3 hours) 255 miles. Stayed from 2/2-2/5. Drove from Lafayette to NOLA on 2/6 (2 hours-135 miles). Checked into Prytania Park Hotel presumably so he could get the parking package deal offered to the cruise passengers. Cruise from 2/6-2/11 then BAM robs a bank 5 days later on 2/16 in Azle, Tx (9 hour trip-555 miles). Returned the car to IAH on 2/17 (2.5 hours- 281 miles). That is only 1226 miles total. Where did he go for the remainder of the 1621 miles? Wasn't his GF and Daughter with him on the cruise? No one thought it was weird they drove 300 miles north of Houston, past Dallas to a town in the middle of nowhere for no apparent reason? Where did they stay for the 5 days between the 11th and the 16th? Also on another trip, Feb 2008, he made 691 mile (roundtrip) trip beginning in Mobile, Al and made a stop in Slidell, La which is only about 25 mins northeast of NOLA. Do we have actual confirmation that he boarded the cruise ship in 2012? Maybe the 2008 trip was to store a cache and 2012 he came back to finish the job? His timeline is full of these quick trips followed by longer ones to the same or close by places within the next years. Just an observation! Take it easy on me- this is my first post! The lack of answers about IK bothers me a lot.
     
  15. MesquiteO21

    MesquiteO21 Please take the time to read "The Gift of Fear"

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    it's also frustrating that the FBI apparently redacted some details from the timeline before they released it to the public...i can't make sense of it. i'm not super knowledgeable about investigation and laws and all that, but given that he is dead, i don't understand why certain things would still be considered confidential. I guess if they are actively working specific cases it might just be standard protocol, but then i don't really understand why they would release any timeline at all then.

    I'll forever be bothered that according to Maureen Callahan's book, Minnesota was a "significant" state for IK (he had an army friend who was from MN and turned him into a big Vikings fan), but notice on the timeline that he was only in the state once as a connection from Seattle to Grand Forks, ND.
     
  16. Iwatchingeye

    Iwatchingeye Well-Known Member

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    Welcome what a great first post!!! Lots of good points and I am going back and looking at this again.
     
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  17. Sincerely

    Sincerely Well-Known Member

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    I followed Marie Hanson’s case. She went missing around July 8, 2011 out of Gifford Pinchot National Forest (Washington) during a Rainbow Family Gathering. Just half a year after she went missing I started following Samantha’s case and immediately thought of Marie when I read about IK and his cross-country chaos. There are other possibilities in Marie’s case but for some reason IK comes to mind whenever I think about her.

    Marie Hanson: End of the Rainbow | Seattle Weekly
     
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  18. frostyfalls

    frostyfalls New Member

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    I'm pretty sure someone will have posted this already, but here is IK's truck on Google streetview, with Keyes and possibly his daughter in the passenger seat?-
    LINK
     
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  19. FOXINBOX

    FOXINBOX Member

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    I am new to this discussion and have much to catch up on, as Mr Keyes hasn't had much media exposure in the UK. Can anybody recommend good reading material?
     
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  20. saussy

    saussy New Member

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    I highly recommend Maureen Callahan’s book American Predator. This book covers his capture, his incarceration, and some of his other crimes. It’s a great starting point.

    The absolute best source for learning about Keyes (IMHO) is Josh Hallmark’s podcast, True Crime Bulls***. He does fantastic investigative journalism and really digs into IK’s past crimes and possible victims. I’m not a podcast person, but TCBS is really amazingly well-written and researched. Seasons 1 and 2 will tell you all about Keyes, season 3 is about another serial killer (Kelly Cochran), and season 4 is back to Keyes and is scheduled to start on Nov 12.

    I hope that helps!
     

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